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Game Thread: 6.29 Tiggers @ Balsa

msgkings322

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Yep .. the stats say you are on
The money. The SP role has changed significetly the past 3 years. By about a full inning on average. But this has been a slow ttend from about 2004. They cited a number of different reasons for the trend but tended to think when the number of teams increased the pool of stsrting pitchers decreased (ratio to team) as well as the quality of rhe pool itself.

I think they said that the latest figures are under 5 innings for a starter ..
Right, just heard on the radio even in the minors now they don't let starters go more than 5 innings and 80 pitches or so. The position is evolving and it's just less efficient to have the batters see the same guy 3 times.
 

LHG

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Right, just heard on the radio even in the minors now they don't let starters go more than 5 innings and 80 pitches or so. The position is evolving and it's just less efficient to have the batters see the same guy 3 times.
Someday, it will be considered revolulationary to have a starting rotation or to have a guy start a game and go 6 innings! The Hall of Fame voters will really need to reevaluate the metrics for determining who gets in. Either that, or the Hall becomes a museum for a certain time period of baseball's past and no one else gets in.
 

msgkings322

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Someday, it will be considered revolulationary to have a starting rotation or to have a guy start a game and go 6 innings! The Hall of Fame voters will really need to reevaluate the metrics for determining who gets in. Either that, or the Hall becomes a museum for a certain time period of baseball's past and no one else gets in.
Yes it will be interesting to see how things like the HOF and the All Star game and Cy Young voting evolve with these changes...
 

calsnowskier

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Yep .. the stats say you are on
The money. The SP role has changed significetly the past 3 years. By about a full inning on average. But this has been a slow ttend from about 2004. They cited a number of different reasons for the trend but tended to think when the number of teams increased the pool of stsrting pitchers decreased (ratio to team) as well as the quality of rhe pool itself.

I think they said that the latest figures are under 5 innings for a starter ..
But post expansion, the hitting thinned as well, so I don’t really see the thinning of pitchers as being a real factor.

I think it is more about better scouting (analytics) and more specialization. The strategy for pitchers used to be that they would throw at about 80% (whatever the number is) so they would be able to conserve their energy for later innings. As relievers became more of a focus (LvR, ground baller vs fly baller, etc), SPs we’re trained to go all out from pitch 1 instead. Also, hitters can now study a pitcher on an iPad right in the dugout. They don’t have to waste an AB to get the timing down. They can watch the delivery on the iPad or go down to the batting cages that can mimic that pitchers delivery.

it is a combination of a number of factors that have “ruined” the SP.
 

LHG

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As more teams embrace the churn as a roster building philosophy, I do wonder how that will impact All-Stars games as well. I guess there will always be "stars" but going toward platoon advantages, constant roster movement and less defined roles such as starting pitchers and closers will make it interesting how a player becomes a "star".
 

SF11704

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Being one of the oldest members of this forum I have to say that I miss the game of baseball as I've known it for the past 6 to 7 decades. I liked the idea of knowing most players on the team. Now i feel I'm sort of rooting for a uniform and not individual players. The constant churn has really changed my perspective on what baseball is now ... makes it difficult to follow a team which seems to be changing players on a daily basis ...
 

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Being one of the oldest members of this forum I have to say that I miss the game of baseball as I've known it for the past 6 to 7 decades. I liked the idea of knowing most players on the team. Now i feel I'm sort of rooting for a uniform and not individual players. The constant churn has really changed my perspective on what baseball is now ... makes it difficult to follow a team which seems to be changing players on a daily basis ...
I've only been a fan of baseball since the early 90s (well, since 1990) and what used to bother me was the entrenched veteran who didn't perform but still got regular playing time, or a secured roster spot, even when a young player in AAA was outperforming that player. Now? It seems that doesn't happen nearly as much but the rookies still don't get playing time as often as I like (Ramos? Villar? Both stuck in AAA). Instead, the team just churns through one castoff from another org to another castoff from another org. There are so many of them that it becomes harder to not just root for a team but also for individual players. Even the guys with seemingly solid roster spots play less and play all over the diamond. Not all of this is bad, mind you, but when you are used to a different style, sometimes it is hard to transition to a new style of roster building and still be a fan. I don't like doing the same thing for the sake of doing the same thing but neither am I a fan of change for the sake of change.
 

calsnowskier

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Being one of the oldest members of this forum I have to say that I miss the game of baseball as I've known it for the past 6 to 7 decades. I liked the idea of knowing most players on the team. Now i feel I'm sort of rooting for a uniform and not individual players. The constant churn has really changed my perspective on what baseball is now ... makes it difficult to follow a team which seems to be changing players on a daily basis ...
Exactly.

I liked that the Giants had ties to Mays, McCovey, Krukow, Kuiper, Clark, Estes, etc. And we remembered fondly Thompson, Williams, Uribe (RIP), Brown (RIP), Davis, Caveman, etc. This FO (baseball in general??) doesn’t make those relationships any more. The fans are being groomed to only care about laundry. I could give a shit about laundry. I like the like to the past. The shared history. Watching players come up through the system.
 

calsnowskier

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I've only been a fan of baseball since the early 90s (well, since 1990) and what used to bother me was the entrenched veteran who didn't perform but still got regular playing time, or a secured roster spot, even when a young player in AAA was outperforming that player. Now? It seems that doesn't happen nearly as much but the rookies still don't get playing time as often as I like (Ramos? Villar? Both stuck in AAA). Instead, the team just churns through one castoff from another org to another castoff from another org. There are so many of them that it becomes harder to not just root for a team but also for individual players. Even the guys with seemingly solid roster spots play less and play all over the diamond. Not all of this is bad, mind you, but when you are used to a different style, sometimes it is hard to transition to a new style of roster building and still be a fan. I don't like doing the same thing for the sake of doing the same thing but neither am I a fan of change for the sake of change.
Yup. The churn is probably the best strategy for roster building. It just isn’t fun. It is like making every day November 1st. After a while, eating Candy for 3 meals a day gets old (and painful). A trade is only exciting when trades are rare. A promotion is only impactful when they actually mean something.
 

msgkings322

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Being one of the oldest members of this forum I have to say that I miss the game of baseball as I've known it for the past 6 to 7 decades. I liked the idea of knowing most players on the team. Now i feel I'm sort of rooting for a uniform and not individual players. The constant churn has really changed my perspective on what baseball is now ... makes it difficult to follow a team which seems to be changing players on a daily basis ...
Yep, it's far more of a team concept now, and stars are de-emphasized. It stands to reason. In the NBA and NFL the big names are on the court most of the game (in the NFL it's offense/defense but the stars are on the field every play). In MLB the hitting stars you see only 4 times a game with a bat, otherwise they are standing around in the field or in the dugout. The star pitchers you see once every 5 games.

It's just different, and evolving. The game today is pretty different from the Giants ring years, and very different from 40-50 years ago.
 

msgkings322

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I've only been a fan of baseball since the early 90s (well, since 1990) and what used to bother me was the entrenched veteran who didn't perform but still got regular playing time, or a secured roster spot, even when a young player in AAA was outperforming that player. Now? It seems that doesn't happen nearly as much but the rookies still don't get playing time as often as I like (Ramos? Villar? Both stuck in AAA). Instead, the team just churns through one castoff from another org to another castoff from another org. There are so many of them that it becomes harder to not just root for a team but also for individual players. Even the guys with seemingly solid roster spots play less and play all over the diamond. Not all of this is bad, mind you, but when you are used to a different style, sometimes it is hard to transition to a new style of roster building and still be a fan. I don't like doing the same thing for the sake of doing the same thing but neither am I a fan of change for the sake of change.
It's not change for the sake of change, it's change because the numbers show this is how you maximize wins and get an edge.

Sort of like how the NBA learned you maximize wins by only shooting from the paint in close (dunks and layups) or 3 pointers, no more midrange game. And in the NFL it's all about passing and QBs, the running game is only there to set up passing.

Sports evolve, and as we get older we like change less and less but that's the human condition.
 

SF11704

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Exactly.

I liked that the Giants had ties to Mays, McCovey, Krukow, Kuiper, Clark, Estes, etc. And we remembered fondly Thompson, Williams, Uribe (RIP), Brown (RIP), Davis, Caveman, etc. This FO (baseball in general??) doesn’t make those relationships any more. The fans are being groomed to only care about laundry. I could give a shit about laundry. I like the like to the past. The shared history. Watching players come up through the system.
Don't even know how to phrase this .... when I was a kid (8 - 12ish) I loved baseball and MOST important to me was the when they released the new baseball series of TOPPs baseball cards. Just couldnt wait to start the series collection. Couldn't wait till I had some NYG cards in the collection (pre SFG). It was a great feeling to collect your team. I knew just about every player and thier stats on the back of the card.


How would that work today? How do you callect cards of all these players? Will they even have cards gor all of them. Not even sure what card collecting will look like in the future for kids ....
 

calsnowskier

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Rob Manfred is continuing his campaign to destroy baseball as we know it.

I am 100% in favor of robot umps. I really don’t understand the argument against them (outside of making sure the tech is there to make it fast and accurate).

I don’t like the idea of expansion, but 32 teams just makes sense in so many levels. I think the lessor of the two evils (30 teams vs expansion) is expansion. Bring it on.
 

calsnowskier

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Don't even know how to phrase this .... when I was a kid (8 - 12ish) I loved baseball and MOST important to me was the when they released the new baseball series of TOPPs baseball cards. Just couldnt wait to start the series collection. Couldn't wait till I had some NYG cards in the collection (pre SFG). It was a great feeling to collect your team. I knew just about every player and thier stats on the back of the card.


How would that work today? How do you callect cards of all these players? Will they even have cards gor all of them. Not even sure what card collecting will look like in the future for kids ....
In the 80s, they would release “updates” each year to account for trades or surprise rookies.

I have no idea how card series’ are handled today, but I could imagine have maybe 3 releases per season to account for cuppo’s and waiver wires and trades….
 

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I am 100% in favor of robot umps. I really don’t understand the argument against them (outside of making sure the tech is there to make it fast and accurate).

I don’t like the idea of expansion, but 32 teams just makes sense in so many levels. I think the lessor of the two evils (30 teams vs expansion) is expansion. Bring it on.

Humans make errors, but it's never really as bad as we think. I'm reminded by some old quote I read when I was a kid. It went something like "to err is human, but to really completely fuck things up takes a computer." If the machine is calibrated incorrectly, the entire 9 innings would be messed up instead of just a few missed calls by a human umpire.

But it's more than the robo umps, of course. Manfred is showing a pattern of wanting to change so many things. DH, runner on second base in extra innings, expanded playoffs (so many playoff teams is a bad thing, IMO). Baseball is getting too far away from what it should be. Maybe I'm being an old man, but I'm only 43.
 

SF11704

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In the 80s, they would release “updates” each year to account for trades or surprise rookies.

I have no idea how card series’ are handled today, but I could imagine have maybe 3 releases per season to account for cuppo’s and waiver wires and trades….
Interesting ... for the die hard fan ... you have to collect all of the 'churn' if you want your full team.
 

calsnowskier

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Humans make errors, but it's never really as bad as we think. I'm reminded by some old quote I read when I was a kid. It went something like "to err is human, but to really completely fuck things up takes a computer." If the machine is calibrated incorrectly, the entire 9 innings would be messed up instead of a few missed calls by a human umpire.

But it's more than the robo umps, of course. Manfred is showing a pattern of wanting to change so many things. DH, runner on second base in extra innings, expanded playoffs (so many playoff teams is a bad thing, IMO). Baseball is getting too far away from what it should be. Maybe I'm being an old man, but I'm only 43.
Oh I agree 100% than Manfred sucks and is not a fan of the game. Larry Baer was on KNBR just after the CBA was signed and he was asked point blank if Manfred was a fan of the GAME of baseball. Baer danced around for a bit, but ended on saying he was a great businessman.

That said, not EVERYTHING Manfred has done or is trying to do is bad. These two changes are good, imho. I don’t go to or watch a game to see Angel Hernandez act the fool and then laugh as how bad he mangled the game. I want to the see the PLAYERS act the fool and laugh at how bad they mangled the game.
 
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