2020 HOF ballot

[MilkSpiller22]

I never questioned his effort. But effort doesn't make him a good defender.

I do think he became a popular defensive joke... I don't think he was ever as bad as we now think of him... I know, GG are popularity contests, but winning 5 is still a decent accomplishment...


also, defensive metrics are so flawed, we know he made the routine plays, we know, his range was low... But he made up for his lack of range by making the unnecessary for most, but probable needed for him, falling down jump throw, that he was so famous for...

and not many SS would run so far out of position to make some of the plays he did... sure, you can say it shouldn't of been him making those plays or that he made them because he was so out of position, but he did make those plays...


so the question really is was he THAT bad defensively?? or is it just the popular thing to say??

 

[navamind]

but that's the problem, he wasn't getting to very many balls. That's a pretty big problem when you play a position that sees more balls hit towards them than any other position.

 

[DragonfromTO]

I do think he became a popular defensive joke... I don't think he was ever as bad as we now think of him... I know, GG are popularity contests, but winning 5 is still a decent accomplishment...


also, defensive metrics are so flawed, we know he made the routine plays, we know, his range was low... But he made up for his lack of range by making the unnecessary for most, but probable needed for him, falling down jump throw, that he was so famous for...

and not many SS would run so far out of position to make some of the plays he did... sure, you can say it shouldn't of been him making those plays or that he made them because he was so out of position, but he did make those plays...


so the question really is was he THAT bad defensively?? or is it just the popular thing to say??

If he made up for his lack of range by using jump throws then why do his range statistics still look so bad when most of them are simply measuring whether or not the play was actually made by the fielder and not the hows and whys? His jump throw contributions should come through just fine, no?

The same is also kinda true about plays made by being "out of position". If Jeter is making "extra" outs then they should theoretically result in greater range factors/statistics but we don't see this.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

If he made up for his lack of range by using jump throws then why do his range statistics still look so bad when most of them are simply measuring whether or not the play was actually made by the fielder and not the hows and whys? His jump throw contributions should come through just fine, no?

The same is also kinda true about plays made by being "out of position". If Jeter is making "extra" outs then they should theoretically result in greater range factors/statistics but we don't see this.

but does anyone truly understand how the defensive metrics are measured??? nobody is claiming he was great defensively... I just don't think he was as BAD as everyone wants to think he was...

 

[msgkings322]

Hey at least he tried--unlike Baines and Edgar

Baines played very well in the OF when he was young, and Dunn DHed plenty too.

 

[navamind]

Baines played very well in the OF when he was young, and Dunn DHed plenty too.

and Edgar was regarded pretty highly for his defense when he came up, believe it or not. Total Zone runs had him as +18 runs for his career at 3rd base. seemed like his move to DH had more to do with his hamstring injury he suffered in 1993.


read the thread.

 

[calsnowskier]

and Edgar was regarded pretty highly for his defense when he came up, believe it or not. Total Zone runs had him as +18 runs for his career at 3rd base. seemed like his move to DH had more to do with his hamstring injury he suffered in 1993.


read the thread.

So you believe that Bo Jackson and Dicki Thon belong in the HOF?

 

[Cedrique]

Baines played very well in the OF when he was young, and Dunn DHed plenty too.

Yeah, I was joking. I don't think any of those guys go into the league hoping to be a DH. And to his credit, Baines was consistent throughout his career. Some guys don't seem to hit as well when they get moved to 1b/dh. It seems like Joe Mauer's hitting fell apart when he stopped catching.

 

[Cedrique]

and Edgar was regarded pretty highly for his defense when he came up, believe it or not. Total Zone runs had him as +18 runs for his career at 3rd base. seemed like his move to DH had more to do with his hamstring injury he suffered in 1993.


read the thread.

I like where she says "The ability to hit for power to a while to come around, but it got there as we know". Like many players in the mid 90's, he developed his power between the ages of 32 and 38. He must have changed his launch angle or something.

 

[StanMarsh51]

I like where she says "The ability to hit for power to a while to come around, but it got there as we know". Like many players in the mid 90's, he developed his power between the ages of 32 and 38. He must have changed his launch angle or something.

It kinda coincides with the league-wide offense boom that started in '93. Edgar missed a lot of games in '93 and '94 (strike year), so '95 was the first full year he got to benefit from that 'boom.'

In '92 for instance, the average AL team hit 127 homers in 162 games. By 1994, that the average AL team hit 127 homers in just 114 games (strike year).

 

[navamind]

So you believe that Bo Jackson and Dicki Thon belong in the HOF?

Jackson: 112 OPS+
Thon: 95 OPS+
Edgar: 147 OPS+

Good comparison.

 

[calsnowskier]

My

Jackson: 112 OPS+
Thon: 95 OPS+
Edgar: 147 OPS+

Good comparison.

point is, you said he was good in the field until he got hurt, so his defense should be rated as a positive. Well, Jackson was a HOFer b3fore he was hurt, so he should still ge considered for the hall.

Thon was a highly rated prospect who was expected to have a big career before he got hit. The fact he was hit shouldn’t affect his HOF status.

 

[navamind]

My

point is, you said he was good in the field until he got hurt, so his defense should be rated as a positive. Well, Jackson was a HOFer b3fore he was hurt, so he should still ge considered for the hall.

Thon was a highly rated prospect who was expected to have a big career before he got hit. The fact he was hit shouldn’t affect his HOF status.

lmao. he was a left fielder with a 114 OPS+ before the hip injury. if that's a HOFer, then there's about 100 left fielders that should be in the Hall.

Thon? yeah, it was unfortunate. his 82-83 seasons were really good.

the difference between Edgar and those two is that despite the injury, Edgar was able to continue performing at a high level. we know you're just bitching because the DH iS tEh EvIl

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

My ballot is:

Adam Dunn

Adam Dunn: the white Ryan Howard

 

[StanMarsh51]

Well, Jackson was a HOFer b3fore he was hurt, so he should still ge considered for the hall.

That's a stretch....Jackson didn't even have two full good seasons.

 

[calsnowskier]

lmao. he was a left fielder with a 114 OPS+ before the hip injury. if that's a HOFer, then there's about 100 left fielders that should be in the Hall.

Thon? yeah, it was unfortunate. his 82-83 seasons were really good.

the difference between Edgar and those two is that despite the injury, Edgar was able to continue performing at a high level. we know you're just bitching because the DH iS tEh EvIl

He performed because he didn’t have to play half the game.

But that is distracting me from the point. The point is he DIDNT play defense. You can’t say “he was good, but got hurt. He didn’t not play because he was bad”. Doesn’t matter. He didn’t play. He doesn’t get credit for not playing.

Thon doesn’t get credit because he was hurt. Jackson doesn’t get credit because he was hurt. They didn’t do it. Period.

 

[Cedrique]

Adam Dunn: the white Ryan Howard

Howard was an elite fielding first baseman before the achillies injury....





....said nobody ever.

 

[Pure Steel]

If Moonlight Graham didn’t become a Dr....What could have been....

 

[California Creme Puffs]

Adam Dunn: the white Ryan Howard

I always preferred to think of Howard as the black Adam Dunn.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

I always preferred to think of Howard as the black Adam Dunn.

You say toe-may-toe, I say toe-ma-toe.