2020 HOF ballot

[Cedrique]

but a milestone is a milestone... unless you emphasize that he doesn't get in for that milestone....

It seems like Sosa was a pretty good power hitter who juiced up and put up 5 years of video game stats to make himself relevant whereas Bonds was a Hall of Famer who juiced up and became so good no one even wanted to pitch to him.
But the 600 home runs are pretty impressive. Before the hall of fame voters started ignoring guys they considered steroid users I think most guys with over 400 home runs ended up in the hall of fame. The only ones I can think of are Darrell Evans, who probably got some votes over the years and Dave Kingman, who was awful at everything except hitting home runs.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

It seems like Sosa was a pretty good power hitter who juiced up and put up 5 years of video game stats to make himself relevant whereas Bonds was a Hall of Famer who juiced up and became so good no one even wanted to pitch to him.
But the 600 home runs are pretty impressive. Before the hall of fame voters started ignoring guys they considered steroid users I think most guys with over 400 home runs ended up in the hall of fame. The only ones I can think of are Darrell Evans, who probably got some votes over the years and Dave Kingman, who was awful at everything except hitting home runs.

but there lies the question... If bonds and Clemens make it, then you are letting in steroid users.... once that happens, does your standards change?? or do you get in for things that always got you in??

Unlike Mark McGwire, Sosa is still on the candidate list...

 

[Cedrique]

but there lies the question... If bonds and Clemens make it, then you are letting in steroid users.... once that happens, does your standards change?? or do you get in for things that always got you in??

Unlike Mark McGwire, Sosa is still on the candidate list...

Yeah, regardless of the steroids I still think you have to consider what everyone else is doing in the era that someone played in and those standards may have to be raised.

In the 60's and 70's it was mostly the Gold Standard Hall of Famers that were hitting 30 or more home runs on a consistent basis. This year 58 players hit at least 30. So I consider Carl Yastzemski's 400+ career home runs more valuable than Nelson Cruz's.

But the voters may also start looking more at these other stats like WAR (or something better), instead of just relying on all the counting stats. And if you look at Sosa's career WAR, it looks more like a Dwight Evans than the other guys with 600 or more home runs.

 

[calsnowskier]

but there lies the question... If bonds and Clemens make it, then you are letting in steroid users.... once that happens, does your standards change?? or do you get in for things that always got you in??

Unlike Mark McGwire, Sosa is still on the candidate list...

But Sosa is not in the same class as Bonds (ignore Clemens since it is hard to compare hitters to pitchers)

And he has the additional stink of the corked bat.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

But Sosa is not in the same class as Bonds (ignore Clemens since it is hard to compare hitters to pitchers)

And he has the additional stink of the corked bat.

doesn’t matter. Nobody is saying he should get in if bonds doesn’t.

if you take away the taint, would Sosa make it??? The answer is absolutely yes. So if you let bonds and Clemens in, doesn’t that say the taint is no longer the deciding reason on no???

I get that you and most around here are not milestone people, but milestones are still a major factor.

personally, I wouldn’t mind if they just flat out stated that steroid era needs new milestone numbers.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I’m just saying. Sosa is the most interesting case in this. And has been.

because the first question is not about his qualifications. It’s about bonds and Clemens. And then if they get in how much of a factor should steroids be.

 

[navamind]

that's implying that players that have reached certain milestones are all similar.

 

[calsnowskier]

Sosa was good, but FAR from great pre-‘98. He then put up 5 OMG seasons followed by 2 good seasons, followed by a cliff. All his milestones were put up in a very small window. That falls into the King Felix, Brady Anderson, Timmeh category (not quite, but I am making a point).

Bonds put up HOF numbers throughout his career. And he was not just putting up numbers, he was the unquestioned best player in the game during most of his career.

And you didn’t acknowledge that Sammy has the cork stink added to his resume. “Everyone” may have been juicing. Not “everyone” was corking.

 

[navamind]

Sosa was good, but FAR from great pre-‘98. He then put up 5 OMG seasons followed by 2 good seasons, followed by a cliff. All his milestones were put up in a very small window. That falls into the King Felix, Brady Anderson, Timmeh category (not quite, but I am making a point).

Bonds put up HOF numbers throughout his career. And he was not just putting up numbers, he was the unquestioned best player in the game during most of his career.

And you didn’t acknowledge that Sammy has the cork stink added to his resume. “Everyone” may have been juicing. Not “everyone” was corking.

same for Clemens. These guys combined ridiculous seasons with longevity. Bonds had EIGHT seasons with 9+ WAR and fourteen with 7+ WAR. Bonds led his league in WAR eleven times. Clemens had ten seasons with 7+ WAR. Clemens led his leagues in pitcher WAR seven times. Sosa only had one season with 7+ WAR, and that was his 2001 season.

 

[Cedrique]

Sosa was good, but FAR from great pre-‘98. He then put up 5 OMG seasons followed by 2 good seasons, followed by a cliff. All his milestones were put up in a very small window. That falls into the King Felix, Brady Anderson, Timmeh category (not quite, but I am making a point).

Bonds put up HOF numbers throughout his career. And he was not just putting up numbers, he was the unquestioned best player in the game during most of his career.

And you didn’t acknowledge that Sammy has the cork stink added to his resume. “Everyone” may have been juicing. Not “everyone” was corking.

No telling how the voters will view the corking incident. But that brings up another interesting case-Manny Ramirez.

I'm not positive about the time line but I think the main problem the voters had with Bonds and Clemens was the lying and obstructing their investigation.

Then a couple years later, after things died down some, and they had implemented suspensions and raised the suspensions a couple times, Manny goes out and fails drug test after drug test to the point where he's suspended for 50 games then again for so many games that he just retires.
I'm wondering if that will rub some voters the wrong way even if they do let some other suspected PED users in. Or maybe they'll just say "that's just Manny being Manny". Who knows........

Great stats though. .312 BA, .400+ OBP 555 HRs

 

[Sportsguy9695]

I hope Jeter gets in this year just like Mo did last year. He deserves it if not more then Mo. I don’t think we will see another player play short the way he did just like we won’t see another player close game as good as mo. You knew what was coming and still couldn’t hit it.And secondly if Bonds ever gets in the hall you won’t be able to call it the hall of fame anymore. The guys was a lethal cheater. He cheated his way to get those great numbers.

 

[calsnowskier]

I hope Jeter gets in this year just like Mo did last year. He deserves it if not more then Mo. I don’t think we will see another player play short the way he did just like we won’t see another player close game as good as mo. You knew what was coming and still couldn’t hit it.And secondly if Bonds ever gets in the hall you won’t be able to call it the hall of fame anymore. The guys was a lethal cheater. He cheated his way to get those great numbers.

Ig’nant

 

[Guy Incognito]

I’m just saying. Sosa is the most interesting case in this. And has been.

because the first question is not about his qualifications. It’s about bonds and Clemens. And then if they get in how much of a factor should steroids be.

I think one can make a much easier case that Sosa's juicing made him a HOFer. Bonds through 1998 had 411 HR, 445 SB, and a .966 OPS.

The following players in baseball history hit 400+ home runs and stole 400+ bases:

Barry Bonds.

Bonds was a slam-dunk HOFer before he took a PED, and the PEDs took him from the best hitter of his generation and turned him into the best hitter possibly ever.

Sosa was a good player, but he's the only player in the 600 home run club to hit half his home runs in a 6 year window. Outside of his juiced-up peak, he was nothing special. His case for the HOF is 100% dependent on hitting a lot of home runs, which he didn't do without steroids.

 

[Sportsguy9695]

Ig’nant

What’s that?

 

[calsnowskier]

What’s that?

Jeter played a good shortstop??

Bonds was only a good hitter due to ‘roids?

ig’nant.

 

[Rex Racer]

I hope Jeter gets in this year just like Mo did last year. He deserves it if not more then Mo. I don’t think we will see another player play short the way he did

 

[navamind]

I hope Jeter gets in this year just like Mo did last year. He deserves it if not more then Mo. I don’t think we will see another player play short the way he did just like we won’t see another player close game as good as mo. You knew what was coming and still couldn’t hit it.And secondly if Bonds ever gets in the hall you won’t be able to call it the hall of fame anymore. The guys was a lethal cheater. He cheated his way to get those great numbers.

You can say that again.

 

[Sportsguy9695]

You can say that again.

It’s easy to sit behind a computer and post all bad videos of jeter in the field but if you are a true Yankees fan like me you’ll remember him giving 100% game in and game out

 

[navamind]

I never questioned his effort. But effort doesn't make him a good defender.

 

[navamind]

it's a shame Lee fell off. he was pretty great from 08-13.