2016-17 NBA Regular Season Thread

[WiggyRuss]

As others have mentioned, different players develop at different paces. The biggest problem that the Lakers young guys have is that there was never any time spent developing them over the past 2 seasons. So they are actually behind the curve right now and it's showing.

The last 2 seasons were all about Kobe, which I have no problem with. However, Byron never had the patience to develop the young guys and never really tried to communicate with them. Heck, Kobe did more to try to develop them than Byron ever did, but he was just trying to make it from game to game and spent more time in the training room than the practice floor.

I do agree though that the none of them have really shown themselves to be "that guy." Randle probably comes the closest right now because he definitely has the toughest mindset. Russell is saying the right things, but we need to see him do the right things.

Ingram is intentionally being brought along slowly which is why he only starts when Deng or Russell are out.

Like Luke said, they don't really have a "leader" right now, so they are going to have to do it collectively until someone emerges.

interestingly enough- no rookie has played more minutes than Ingram has this year.

2016-17 Regular Season NBA Player Stats and League Leaders - Minutes - National Basketball Association - ESPN

Ingram has played 1354 minutes--- the most in the league for a rookie- 2nd place is Brogdon with 1110 minutes....and 3rd place is McGruder with 1052 minutes. INgram has played by far the most minutes in the league among rookies.

 

[trojanfan12]

this is an interesting article that i just saw this morning from ESPN.com insider

Do the Lakers have a star on the roster?
After years of neglecting the draft and the back end of the roster, the Lakers have done a better job of adding supporting talent in recent seasons. Larry Nance Jr., a late 2015 first-round pick, looks like a valuable role player (whose 16-game absence due to a bone contusion in his left knee also factored into the Lakers' swoon), while Black, a waiver pickup two seasons ago, has provided good minutes off the bench. And 2016 second-round pick Zubac shows the promise to join this group.

Still, the Lakers' years in the lottery will prove worth it only if they can develop a star from their lottery picks. Randle and Russell haven't yet shown that potential on a consistent basis, though they could certainly get there. And while it's entirely premature to render a verdict on 2016 No. 2 overall pick Brandon Ingram, who's still 19, the early returns have not been encouraging.

Ingram's hot college shooting (he shot 41.0 percent on 3s in his lone year at Duke) hasn't held up; he's making just 29.7 percent from 3-point range, seventh-worst among players with at least 100 attempts, according to Basketball-Reference.com. Worse yet, Ingram is also making less than 40 percent of his 2-point attempts (39.8 percent), which would make him the 25th player in NBA history to pull off that particular double.

The inaccurate shooting has outweighed the promise Ingram has shown as a playmaker and defender. His 2.8 wins below replacement level by my WARP metric are worst in the league, as is his minus-5.4 rating in ESPN's real plus-minus (RPM).

Naturally, that's partially because Ingram has played more than the typical 19-year-old rookie, but it's hard to find players who have started so poorly and become anything more than capable reserves.

At the end of November, Randle's true shooting percentage was an impressive .572, a dramatic improvement from the .482 mark he posted in his first full season. Since then, it has dropped to .525. Meanwhile, Russell's true shooting percentage has dropped from .534 to .489, worse than his .507 mark as a rookie.

Randle's development is a fascinating case study. According to NBAwowy.com, when playing power forward alongside one of the team's traditional centers (Timofey Mozgov, Tarik Black and Ivica Zubac), he has shot about the same dismal percentage on 2-point attempts (43.6 percent) as he did in 2015-16 (43.5 percent). Randle's improvement, then, can largely be traced to playing in smaller lineups with better floor spacing. When he's the lone big man on the court, Randle shoots an incredible 65.8 percent on 2-point attempts.

Lineups with Randle as the lone big man have scored 113.1 points per 100 possessions, a mark bettered this season only by the Golden State Warriors (113.6). Unfortunately, the Lakers have given up 116.2 points per 100 possessions, as Randle doesn't have the ability to anchor a defense as a center. His improved playmaking (Randle has doubled his assist rate this season) is encouraging, but Randle can only become a plus contributor if he scores efficiently as a power forward.

The same is true for Russell, who has proven more capable of creating shots than hitting them thus far in his NBA career. Since Russell rarely gets to the basket off the dribble and doesn't finish well there (he's shooting only 57.1 percent inside 3 feet this season, per Basketball-Reference.com), that will likely require improving his average 3-point shooting (34.9 percent career).

Russell has actually shot well (43.0 percent) on catch-and-shoot 3s, according to SportVU tracking on NBA.com/Stats. It's pull-up 3s that have been an issue: Russell is making them at a 27.7 percent clip, and since most of those come when opponents go under screens, Russell is averaging just .65 points on pick-and-roll plays, second-worst among players with at least 100 such attempts, via Synergy Sports charting

Pretty accurate. The most encouraging thing, imo, is that it looks like these guys play better when they are playing the style (smaller lineup, spreading the floor) that Luke eventually wants to play all of the time. Which, of course, is the style that most teams are using in today's NBA.

 

[knowyourenemy]

basically to make a long story short- if the most shots Smith took in either Finals was 16- and thats when Love and Irving were not playing- its simply not realistic to envision him taking 20 shots when Irving and Love are playing- unless LBJ and Irving keep feeding him because he is EN FUEGO- and if thats the case- cool, take 20.

right?

He shot 31% from the field on close to 13 attempts per game in the finals 2 years ago. Is that 3 for 20? No, but really, it's close enough and "3 for 20" was intentionally hyperbolic. He was better last year and it made a difference, but let's not pretend that he's incapable of reverting to that, even with Love and Irving healthy. He had 5 games last playoffs where he shot at least 9 shots and shot .333 or worse. Obviously, the good outweighed the bad and, overall, he played much better than he did in the prior postseason.

You mention his two 3-pointers in game 7. And they were huge. But he shot 38.5% from the field on 13 shots and 25% from 3 in that game (2-8). Obviously you can't take those shots away, but if you did, he's 3 for 11 from the field and 0 for 6 from 3. So yeah, it's possible for J.R. Smith to chuck up a bunch of shots even with Love and Irving in and without him being on fire.

 

[trojanfan12]

interestingly enough- no rookie has played more minutes than Ingram has this year.

2016-17 Regular Season NBA Player Stats and League Leaders - Minutes - National Basketball Association - ESPN

Ingram has played 1354 minutes--- the most in the league for a rookie- 2nd place is Brogdon with 1110 minutes....and 3rd place is McGruder with 1052 minutes. INgram has played by far the most minutes in the league among rookies.

True. But he's been playing split minutes between the pg and sf. That's a lot for a 19 year old. The one thing I'd like to see Luke change is having him stick to one position or the other. The problem is, they really don't have anyone else who can play both positions and Deng and Russell keep missing games.

 

[WiggyRuss]

He shot 31% from the field on close to 13 attempts per game in the finals 2 years ago. Is that 3 for 20? No, but really, it's close enough and "3 for 20" was intentionally hyperbolic. He was better last year and it made a difference, but let's not pretend that he's incapable of reverting to that, even with Love and Irving healthy. He had 5 games last playoffs where he shot at least 9 shots and shot .333 or worse. Obviously, the good outweighed the bad and, overall, he played much better than he did in the prior postseason.

You mention his two 3-pointers in game 7. And they were huge. But he shot 38.5% from the field on 13 shots and 25% from 3 in that game (2-8). Obviously you can't take those shots away, but if you did, he's 3 for 11 from the field and 0 for 6 from 3. So yeah, it's possible for J.R. Smith to chuck up a bunch of shots even with Love and Irving in and without him being on fire.

you think that Jr Smith is going to "shoot them out of a game" in the playoffs while Irving and Love are playing? All the evidence of the last 2 years totally refutes that.

I totally understand- Jr Smith as the 2nd option- is a nightmare...Jr Smith as the 4th option and playing in his defined role is a very valuable player. With LeBron's leadership, and Smith's track record- i dont know how you could possibly come to the conclusion that Smith could just "go rogue" and shoot them out of a playoff game when Irving and Love and LeBron are on the court- because it simply hasnt happened.

Its not a coincdedence that in the Cavs 4 Finals wins Jr SMith shot 40% from 3.

 

[knowyourenemy]

True. But he's been playing split minutes between the pg and sf. That's a lot for a 19 year old. The one thing I'd like to see Luke change is having him stick to one position or the other. The problem is, they really don't have anyone else who can play both positions and Deng and Russell keep missing games.

My biggest fear about the Lakers is that they're playing themselves into a top 3 pick this year. Inexcusable.

 

[trojanfan12]

They didn't vote for Durant either, it's because a lot of role player guys voted for themselves, and didn't vote for certain players so that their teammates would have a better shot at making it.

Which is why Steve Kerr was pissed off about it and said the players made a mockery out of their vote.

I think more voted for Durant than Lebron. It's pretty telling when 39% don't vote for the best player in the game. I do agree with Kerr though, the players made a mockery of it.

The all star game is the fans game, it always has been. The players have no business voting and they showed why. Some voted for themselves or friends who aren't close to all star level. The media also has no business voting because they carry grudges. Although, I'd say the media has more business voting than the players do.

It should be a fan vote, period. The all star game is for the fans, All NBA teams are for the players.

 

[WiggyRuss]

True. But he's been playing split minutes between the pg and sf. That's a lot for a 19 year old. The one thing I'd like to see Luke change is having him stick to one position or the other. The problem is, they really don't have anyone else who can play both positions and Deng and Russell keep missing games.

I was surprised when i saw that not only has Ingram played the most minutes- but its raelly not even close- i think part of that goes to the very poor rookie class he was a part of- and of course Simmons not playing.

I mean- Embiid has played just more than HALF the minutes Ingram has- which is makes sense i guess as far as the Sixers wanting to protect him- but i think it kind of does work as a barometer.

 

[trojanfan12]

My biggest fear about the Lakers is that they're playing themselves into a top 3 pick this year. Inexcusable.

I don't know how accurate it is or how it all works, but I heard that if they keep this pick, they also keep their 2019 pick.

 

[WiggyRuss]

I think more voted for Durant than Lebron. It's pretty telling when 39% don't vote for the best player in the game. I do agree with Kerr though, the players made a mockery of it.

The all star game is the fans game, it always has been. The players have no business voting and they showed why. Some voted for themselves or friends who aren't close to all star level. The media also has no business voting because they carry grudges. Although, I'd say the media has more business voting than the players do.

It should be a fan vote, period. The all star game is for the fans, All NBA teams are for the players.

Of the 324 players who voted, 128 did not vote for LeBron James and 154 did not vote for Durant, two seemingly obvious frontcourt picks. A large group of voters apparently voted for themselves, based on the number of role players who received one vote.

more did not vote for Durant.....128 did not vote for LeBron...154 did not vote for Durant.

 

[knowyourenemy]

you think that Jr Smith is going to "shoot them out of a game" in the playoffs while Irving and Love are playing? All the evidence of the last 2 years totally refutes that.

I totally understand- Jr Smith as the 2nd option- is a nightmare...Jr Smith as the 4th option and playing in his defined role is a very valuable player. With LeBron's leadership, and Smith's track record- i dont know how you could possibly come to the conclusion that Smith could just "go rogue" and shoot them out of a playoff game when Irving and Love and LeBron are on the court- because it simply hasnt happened.

Its not a coincdedence that in the Cavs 4 Finals wins Jr SMith shot 40% from 3.

He took 13 shots in a game where he was not "en fuego," as you call it. Proof enough that he has the potential to lose a game for them. That game happened to be Game 7, so it should be concerning. He outshot Love in 5 games of the Finals last year, so it's been proven that he isn't the 4th option for them against the Warriors. He's number 3.

 

[knowyourenemy]

I don't know how accurate it is or how it all works, but I heard that if they keep this pick, they also keep their 2019 pick.

It's accurate. If the 2017 pick conveys to the 76ers, then the 2019 pick goes to Orlando. If the 2017 pick doesn't convey to the 76ers, then the Lakers give up two second rounders to Orlando instead.

 

[trojanfan12]

Of the 324 players who voted, 128 did not vote for LeBron James and 154 did not vote for Durant, two seemingly obvious frontcourt picks. A large group of voters apparently voted for themselves, based on the number of role players who received one vote.

more did not vote for Durant.....128 did not vote for LeBron...154 did not vote for Durant.

Hadn't seen those numbers. I had just heard about the Lebron number. That makes the players vote look even worse, imo. I wonder if some of the not voting for Durant had to do with him going to GSW?

I mean, I'm no Lebron fan, but how do you not vote for the best player in the game?

 

[Kold]

this is an interesting article that i just saw this morning from ESPN.com insider

Do the Lakers have a star on the roster?
After years of neglecting the draft and the back end of the roster, the Lakers have done a better job of adding supporting talent in recent seasons. Larry Nance Jr., a late 2015 first-round pick, looks like a valuable role player (whose 16-game absence due to a bone contusion in his left knee also factored into the Lakers' swoon), while Black, a waiver pickup two seasons ago, has provided good minutes off the bench. And 2016 second-round pick Zubac shows the promise to join this group.

Still, the Lakers' years in the lottery will prove worth it only if they can develop a star from their lottery picks. Randle and Russell haven't yet shown that potential on a consistent basis, though they could certainly get there. And while it's entirely premature to render a verdict on 2016 No. 2 overall pick Brandon Ingram, who's still 19, the early returns have not been encouraging.

Ingram's hot college shooting (he shot 41.0 percent on 3s in his lone year at Duke) hasn't held up; he's making just 29.7 percent from 3-point range, seventh-worst among players with at least 100 attempts, according to Basketball-Reference.com. Worse yet, Ingram is also making less than 40 percent of his 2-point attempts (39.8 percent), which would make him the 25th player in NBA history to pull off that particular double.

The inaccurate shooting has outweighed the promise Ingram has shown as a playmaker and defender. His 2.8 wins below replacement level by my WARP metric are worst in the league, as is his minus-5.4 rating in ESPN's real plus-minus (RPM).

Naturally, that's partially because Ingram has played more than the typical 19-year-old rookie, but it's hard to find players who have started so poorly and become anything more than capable reserves.

At the end of November, Randle's true shooting percentage was an impressive .572, a dramatic improvement from the .482 mark he posted in his first full season. Since then, it has dropped to .525. Meanwhile, Russell's true shooting percentage has dropped from .534 to .489, worse than his .507 mark as a rookie.

Randle's development is a fascinating case study. According to NBAwowy.com, when playing power forward alongside one of the team's traditional centers (Timofey Mozgov, Tarik Black and Ivica Zubac), he has shot about the same dismal percentage on 2-point attempts (43.6 percent) as he did in 2015-16 (43.5 percent). Randle's improvement, then, can largely be traced to playing in smaller lineups with better floor spacing. When he's the lone big man on the court, Randle shoots an incredible 65.8 percent on 2-point attempts.

Lineups with Randle as the lone big man have scored 113.1 points per 100 possessions, a mark bettered this season only by the Golden State Warriors (113.6). Unfortunately, the Lakers have given up 116.2 points per 100 possessions, as Randle doesn't have the ability to anchor a defense as a center. His improved playmaking (Randle has doubled his assist rate this season) is encouraging, but Randle can only become a plus contributor if he scores efficiently as a power forward.

The same is true for Russell, who has proven more capable of creating shots than hitting them thus far in his NBA career. Since Russell rarely gets to the basket off the dribble and doesn't finish well there (he's shooting only 57.1 percent inside 3 feet this season, per Basketball-Reference.com), that will likely require improving his average 3-point shooting (34.9 percent career).

Russell has actually shot well (43.0 percent) on catch-and-shoot 3s, according to SportVU tracking on NBA.com/Stats. It's pull-up 3s that have been an issue: Russell is making them at a 27.7 percent clip, and since most of those come when opponents go under screens, Russell is averaging just .65 points on pick-and-roll plays, second-worst among players with at least 100 such attempts, via Synergy Sports charting

It is beyond me to determine who a star will be, 1, and 2 years out from a player's career. In some instances, it happens right away, but that doesn't mean that it applies to every player. Ingram is 19, and 190 pounds. He has shown promise, but I never expected him to jump right out of the gate as a star, especially given that the ball was never going to be in his hands on a regular basis. Russell, as I've said many times, is imo the most talented, but is inconsistent, and also injured at the moment. And as for Randle, he's light years ahead of comparison, which is Draymond Green at whatever Draymond was in his 2nd season.

 

[trojanfan12]

It's accurate. If the 2017 pick conveys to the 76ers, then the 2019 pick goes to Orlando. If the 2017 pick doesn't convey to the 76ers, then the Lakers give up two second rounders to Orlando instead.

Welp, I'm normally against it, but....Tank On Lakers. lol

 

[WiggyRuss]

Hadn't seen those numbers. I had just heard about the Lebron number. That makes the players vote look even worse, imo. I wonder if some of the not voting for Durant had to do with him going to GSW?

I mean, I'm no Lebron fan, but how do you not vote for the best player in the game?

there is two sides to it----

obviosuly - no matter what you are voting in- whether it be for NBA All Stars or President of the United States- some people dont take it seriously.

When all 3 of the results were published- when you look at the results as a whole- I think the Players as a whole did by far the best job out of them, the media and the fans.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Welp, I'm normally against it, but....Tank On Lakers. lol

you keep one of them...you still owe the 2018 pick to the Sixers if it doesnt go this year- but then that ORlando pick would transform into 2 2nd rounders.

the other side to it is--- if the 2017 doesnt go to the Sixers- then- as i said above- the 2018 pick does...that would mean the 2019 pick is the Lakers no matter what because you cant deal 1st rounders in consecutive years.

ideally- i mean, if by 2020- the first rounder you would get to keep is really a good pick- that means other shit has gone terribly wrong right? if by 2020 that is still a "good" pick...

 

[Kold]

But in the end, like I said in the summer, GSW, Cle, SA, and whoever else is going to rule the league for the next however many years...so our best course of action is to deal with the pains of a young team and wait for them to get in their primes as GS, Cle, and whomever exit their primes

 

[knowyourenemy]

Welp, I'm normally against it, but....Tank On Lakers. lol

They'll never catch Brooklyn and hopefully they end up with, at worst, the 3rd worst record. I have a lot of hope that Miami is going to go into a hard tank since they traded away a bunch of their future picks. That would still give them a higher chance of conveying the pick to the 76ers than not conveying the pick.

 

[knowyourenemy]

you keep one of them...you still owe the 2018 pick to the Sixers if it doesnt go this year- but then that ORlando pick would transform into 2 2nd rounders.

the other side to it is--- if the 2017 doesnt go to the Sixers- then- as i said above- the 2018 pick does...that would mean the 2019 pick is the Lakers no matter what because you cant deal 1st rounders in consecutive years.

ideally- i mean, if by 2020- the first rounder you would get to keep is really a good pick- that means other shit has gone terribly wrong right? if by 2020 that is still a "good" pick...

I've been wondering about this rule against dealing 1st rounders in consecutive years. Didn't Boston get Brooklyn's pick last year? And don't they own the rights to their pick again this year?