2015 Playoff Thread

[Stokes1931]

I think Olbermann is a tool, but there is this:

 

[calsnowskier]

Would not the fact that Tejada made contact with Utley, with the ball in hand, make Utley out?

I remember a few years ago there was a play that called this thought into question. I believe the call at the time was that the player only acts as the ball on a force. For a tag, only the hand holding the ball acts as the ball.

Not sure if there is an actual documented rule spelling this out, though.

 

[calsnowskier]

I think Olbermann is a tool, but there is this:

1) agree. But it is a judgement call, not open to replay.
2) nope. Bad throw and his back was to the runner. The neighborhood can only be called if the defender is acting in self preservation.
3) nope. As far as Utley was concerned, it was a dead play. He had already been declared "out". In the event of a replay overturning a call on the field, runners are awarded bases based on umpire discretion. In this case, it was a simple decision.

 

[tzill]

That was truly awful. That play should be completely illegal, just like plays at the plate. And I wonder why Collins didn't challenge Utley being out because he never touched the base.

Also, wasn't that technically a neighborhood play, which we just saw in the Giants game that those plays aren't reviewable?

Thus proving that you are one of my alts. I said that back on the Disney board, long before Scott Cousins made it happen for catchers. Contact with a defender is ALWAYS either interference or obstruction....baseball is a NON CONTACT sport.

Jeebus, when will MLB wake up?

 

[LHG]

This play was illegal according to this rule. The umpires should know this one. They got the call wrong. One would have to be pretty dense, in my opinion, to not interpret Utley's slide as anything else.

 

[LHG]

Here's an article from Schoenfield about the play - Only the Dodgers profited from Chase Utley's dirty slide - SweetSpot - ESPN. Here's the thing about defending Utley - saying he's playing the way he was taught. I also don't see many players making that kind of slide. That he was doing what he's been trained to do is BS. Use your brain, Utley. He's a middle infielder, he knows what that kind of tactic is going to do to the defender more than just about anyone else at or in the game.

 

[calsnowskier]

Here's an article from Schoenfield about the play - Only the Dodgers profited from Chase Utley's dirty slide - SweetSpot - ESPN. Here's the thing about defending Utley - saying he's playing the way he was taught. I also don't see many players making that kind of slide. That he was doing what he's been trained to do is BS. Use your brain, Utley. He's a middle infielder, he knows what that kind of tactic is going to do to the defender more than just about anyone else at or in the game.

Solid article.

Only thing I disagree with is the fact that Utley did not leave the base path on the slide. He was within reach of the bag. Regardless, though, he was not going for the bag. He was going for a rough, dangerous, high takeout. I can't even call it a "slide".

 

[MarcoPolo]

Here's an article from Schoenfield about the play - Only the Dodgers profited from Chase Utley's dirty slide - SweetSpot - ESPN. Here's the thing about defending Utley - saying he's playing the way he was taught. I also don't see many players making that kind of slide. That he was doing what he's been trained to do is BS. Use your brain, Utley. He's a middle infielder, he knows what that kind of tactic is going to do to the defender more than just about anyone else at or in the game.

1) Schoenfield is using an older version of the rules. In the 2015 version the sections he quotes are 7.09 (f) and (g). The reason that is important is that 7.09(e) is now :

Any batter or runner who has just been put out, or any runner who has just scored, hinders or impedes any following play being made on a runner. Such runner shall be declared out for the interference of his teammate;

2) 7.09 (f) and (g) aren't applicable, as Tejada wasn't fielding a batted ball - he was catching a thrown ball.

3) The article mentions rule 6.05(m) - there is no rule 6.05(m) in the 2015 rules (even though it is referenced in a comment in said rules!). It is rule 5.09(a)(13), and it is the one that should have been applied.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I'd like to see a new rule put in place :

If you injure a player on the opposing team and it is remotely possible you did it on purpose (blowing up the catcher or the 2nd baseman/SS would be an almost automatic lock) or by not following the rules then :

- You are suspended without pay as long as the other player is out. If the injured player is on the DL 25 days, then the asswipe that injured him is suspended 25 days. If he's out for the season, so are you.
- Enough of your pay (either forfeited pay during suspenion, or pay when you come back if you haven't fully reimbursed the team at that point) is sent to the other team to cover the injured person's salary. Once you are no longer suspended, if you haven't sent enough $$ to pay the other guy's salary, then you earn major league minimum with the rest going to the other team until the other team has been reimbursed. If you make less than twice major league minimum, then you send half your pay. This includes ALL bonuses that are paid before the end of the NEXT regular season (or opening day two seasons out)
- Any player who was suspended during the season and who hasn't paid back the full lost salary by the end of the season must be given a full post-season share by the team (if the team makes the post-season) and the totality of the share is paid to the 'injured team' (until such point that they have been fully reimbursed)
- If the player has to retire because of the injury, you can't play MLB anymore.

The decision should be made by umpires, AFTER the game, upon review of video evidence (but the game umpires should immediately inform the video review team so that the video can be saved for review).

Now, if the injured player *significantly* contributes to the situation, then the other player could get off completely (say a catcher completely blocks home plate - which he is NOT allowed to do, or at least hits in that situation are allowed). If both contributed, then maybe a 50% corrective action against the injuring player.

I think that it would also be a good idea that if the injuring player makes more than the injured player, then half of the injuring player's salary is given to the injured player for a period of time that is 2X the time on the DL. (This will keep asswipes like A-Rod from running over rookies.)

In the Tejada/Utley collision, Utley would be suspended until Tejada comes back, so no more 2015 post-season.

If a 'Posey-like' collision happened, the guy would be out for the rest of the season.

An interesting case is the Hudson/Young first base collision in 2013 that broke his ankle. One the one hand, it was a bang-bang play, everything happening in less than a second and Hudson DID place his foot at the front of the bag almost on the foul line - Young had very little bag to place his foot on AND Hudson did it a second (or less) before Young got to the bag. On the other hand Young was *definitely* running in fair territory WHICH IS SPECIFICALLY DISALLOWED by the rules - the last 40 feet or so the batter-runner is OBLIGATED to run in the three-foot-wide lane painted just foul of first base. {Rule 5.09(a)(11)} If Young had been in that lane, there's a good possibility that he could have placed his foot safely on the base instead of on Hudson's ankle. It would be a tough call.

 

[1phlapdown]

Good call MP. Rugby was referenced (in a comments section about this TACKLE) as having such a rule although I couldn't find it.

 

[Stokes1931]

Dodgers Chase Utley suspended for slide

On FOX Sports 1 during Game 3 of the American League Division Series between the Blue Jays and Rangers in Arlington, Torre elaborated on his written decision.

"I was sitting behind the first-base dugout last night," he said. "I know Chase plays very hard. From my angle it looked like a hard slide. It really wasn't until I looked at video later on that I saw how late the slide was and how he sort of followed Tejada, sliding into him. It was based on the fact that he slid very late and it appeared to me he hit Tejada and the ground about the same time. He was more targeting the player as opposed to the base. He certainly didn't want to hurt him. He was just breaking up the double play, but I just thought it was a little bit much."

The lateness of the slide seems troublesome to me also.

 

[LHG]

Dodgers Chase Utley suspended for slide

On FOX Sports 1 during Game 3 of the American League Division Series between the Blue Jays and Rangers in Arlington, Torre elaborated on his written decision.

"I was sitting behind the first-base dugout last night," he said. "I know Chase plays very hard. From my angle it looked like a hard slide. It really wasn't until I looked at video later on that I saw how late the slide was and how he sort of followed Tejada, sliding into him. It was based on the fact that he slid very late and it appeared to me he hit Tejada and the ground about the same time. He was more targeting the player as opposed to the base. He certainly didn't want to hurt him. He was just breaking up the double play, but I just thought it was a little bit much."

The lateness of the slide seems troublesome to me also.

Did you listen to the 2 minute plus clip with Mattingly? He seems to think the whole thing is being overblown by the New York media. No Don, it is not.

 

[Stokes1931]

Did you listen to the 2 minute plus clip with Mattingly? He seems to think the whole thing is being overblown by the New York media. No Don, it is not.

Gotta love Donnie Baseball.

In many ways, Baseball is a very tribal sport. If one of your guys does it, it is a blatant disregard of the rules. If one of OUR guys does it, well, you know, boys will be boys.

That said, I am not sure I expect DM to say anything different. He has to defend his guys.

 

[LHG]

1) agree. But it is a judgement call, not open to replay.
2) nope. Bad throw and his back was to the runner. The neighborhood can only be called if the defender is acting in self preservation.
3) nope. As far as Utley was concerned, it was a dead play. He had already been declared "out". In the event of a replay overturning a call on the field, runners are awarded bases based on umpire discretion. In this case, it was a simple decision.

cal, sorry to just now be responding to this statement but seeing the article Stokes posted, and watching the interviews, I saw a replay from another angle and noticed that when Tejada first got the feed he was looking in the direction of 1st (and would have seen Utley coming, if only for a split second) and got his foot very close to the bag. To me, that does seem like a neighborhood play.

 

[LHG]

Gotta love Donnie Baseball.

In many ways, Baseball is a very tribal sport. If one of your guys does it, it is a blatant disregard of the rules. If one of OUR guys does it, well, you know, boys will be boys.

That said, I am not sure I expect DM to say anything different. He has to defend his guys.

Yeah, it just sounds awful when you see the play and then hear what the opposing manager said. I think Utley's comments are even worse. He didn't see Tejada's back to him, he was focused on the ball? Tejada had the ball when his back was turned. I'm not him so its hard to know how his thought process was during the play but it sure looks worse than how Utley describes it as happening.

 

[Robotech]

Was this worse than the Holliday hit on Scutaro in the 2012 NLCS? The Holliday-Scutaro play was the first thing I thought about when I saw last night's play.

 

[Stokes1931]

Was this worse than the Holliday hit on Scutaro in the 2012 NLCS? The Holliday-Scutaro play was the first thing I thought about when I saw last night's play.

I thought of that, too. And hope the team that had their player injured has the same outcome in this series that the Giants did in that series with the Cards.

 

[Robotech]

I thought of that, too. And hope the team that had their player injured has the same outcome in this series that the Giants did in that series with the Cards.

Definitely. The other thing I thought about was soccer slide tackle. The Utley slide is red card-worthy, I believe.

 

[Stokes1931]

Definitely. The other thing I thought about was soccer slide tackle. The Utley slide is red card-worthy, I believe.

As a soccer referee who has done high school and college games, (and the little kids), I would say that this would certainly have been red card worthy.

 

[calsnowskier]

cal, sorry to just now be responding to this statement but seeing the article Stokes posted, and watching the interviews, I saw a replay from another angle and noticed that when Tejada first got the feed he was looking in the direction of 1st (and would have seen Utley coming, if only for a split second) and got his foot very close to the bag. To me, that does seem like a neighborhood play.

Fair enough. But at the same time, the neighborhood play is rather vague and completely up to the judgement of the umpire.

IMHO, the throw was bad enough to eliminate the neighborhood play from discussion. Any other argument past that, such as whether or not he saw Utley is purely academic. I added the argument because it IS an argument. But to me, the throw nullifies it anyway.