2015 class

[WVUDAD]

He didn't have any experience when he hung 70 on Clemson either. All this does is prove a point, we don't have the players to execute the game plan and offensive scheme.

Think about what you said there, Diehard. Read it again and THINK about it. You are hanging your hat on the perfect storm in ONE game, and that ONE game proves MY point, the talent is there, the play calling, execution, and teaching are NOT.

 

[JIMKOON]

I'm guessing you are referring to this year only?

I am pretty sure DC provided this info for you earlier in the season. But, just a little FYI…

2010 Total Offense - #67 Ranking with 373 yds/gm Scoring Offense - #78 Ranking with 25 pts/gm
2011 Total Offense - #15 Ranking with 470 yds/gm Scoring Offense - #13 Ranking with 38 pts/gm
2012 Total Offense - #10 Ranking with 502 yds/gm Scoring Offense - #9 Ranking with 39 pts/gm

So, in Dana's first two years as HC… learning on the job… he improved the offense from a #67 ranking in Total Offense to a #15 ranking while playing in the BE. A much more defensively minded conference than the Big 12 I've heard some say on this board.

And, you want to say the offense has struggled greatly?

Stats are a bunch of crap when you look at the win/loss picture, it's like saying we won the battle but lost the war. Statistical analysis of this season would say we should have a better record, for sure, but when our losing at the pace we are, there is something terribly wrong, and it clearly goes beyond the numbers on a piece of paper. And, can only point in one direction, the ability to lead and inspire young men to the point of giving it all on the field, playing better than one might actually be capable of. There are those coaches who defy explanation, sometimes even expectations, of which Dana Holgerson is neither. I know people don't like to hear it, but at what point do we get a clear head and begin to see the truth, not holding on to some obscure numbers from the past as some tool to project a positive that does not exist? Mark my words, one more year of this type of play on the field, no matter what the stats say, and our program is going to be in trouble, and as I have heard countless times now, it will take 5 years to correct the failure of the last 5 years of recruiting stupidity. You cannot lose like this in the Big 12 and gain anything, we did that in the Big Least, several times, but we have much much more at stake here now. Failure in the Big 12 begats failure, not grow, because failure means no top level recruits, Morgantown does not yet have enough to entice the top kids into a losing program. We may get there(as far as what Morgantown and WVU have to offer) in the future, but right now, this moment, we are vastly behind in services, facilities and entertainment, and the good old days of the family atmosphere and serenity, are gone, because the new recruits WANT, winning, the ability to party and to have a chance of being the top picks in the NFL. Based on our current roster, the pickings for an NFL draft are very very slim. Last years 3 picks will not be seen for many years to come. A really good coach could probably raise the bar for our roster, and this coach doesn't have that quality or desire, because he believes he is perfect in every way, in his mind, it's all the players fault.

 

[WVUDAD]

I'm guessing you are referring to this year only?

I am pretty sure DC provided this info for you earlier in the season. But, just a little FYI…

2010 Total Offense - #67 Ranking with 373 yds/gm Scoring Offense - #78 Ranking with 25 pts/gm
2011 Total Offense - #15 Ranking with 470 yds/gm Scoring Offense - #13 Ranking with 38 pts/gm
2012 Total Offense - #10 Ranking with 502 yds/gm Scoring Offense - #9 Ranking with 39 pts/gm

So, in Dana's first two years as HC… learning on the job… he improved the offense from a #67 ranking in Total Offense to a #15 ranking while playing in the BE. A much more defensively minded conference than the Big 12 I've heard some say on this board.

And, you want to say the offense has struggled greatly?

The offense THIS year averaged WORSE performance than the 2010 offense that people screamed about. I notice you did not mention that in 2010, WVU had the top defense in the nation, and in two years Holgorsen turned it into one of the worst. Take a look at GAME TO GAME offense in 2012 as well, the offense fell of GREATLY after the win at Texas. If you want some reasoning, in 2011, Holgorsen ran only the offense, he was relying on the experienced defensive staff to handle their own. in 2012 he tried to do the same, and when it became clear that Efore could not run the defense, Holgorsen had his first dealing with really being a HC, and I attribute that in part to his problems since on offense. Holgorsen is learning, but is he learning fast enough? WVU can ill afford to have several shitty seasons in a row, or recruiting will suffer greatly.

 

[WVUDAD]

I'm guessing you are referring to this year only?

I am pretty sure DC provided this info for you earlier in the season. But, just a little FYI…

2010 Total Offense - #67 Ranking with 373 yds/gm Scoring Offense - #78 Ranking with 25 pts/gm
2011 Total Offense - #15 Ranking with 470 yds/gm Scoring Offense - #13 Ranking with 38 pts/gm
2012 Total Offense - #10 Ranking with 502 yds/gm Scoring Offense - #9 Ranking with 39 pts/gm

So, in Dana's first two years as HC… learning on the job… he improved the offense from a #67 ranking in Total Offense to a #15 ranking while playing in the BE. A much more defensively minded conference than the Big 12 I've heard some say on this board.

And, you want to say the offense has struggled greatly?

2010 9-4 bowl game
2011 10-3 bowl game
2012 7-6 bowl game
2013 4-8 or 5-7 NO bowl for the first time in 12 years

THOSE are the stats people care about, I could not give a shit about 1000 yard rushers or 700 yard games if WVU loses. You guys say the cupboard was left bare, I say it looks like we have a Larry Coker here who won with the former coaches players, but not his own.

 

[bbwvfan]

The offense THIS year averaged WORSE performance than the 2010 offense that people screamed about. I notice you did not mention that in 2010, WVU had the top defense in the nation, and in two years Holgorsen turned it into one of the worst. Take a look at GAME TO GAME offense in 2012 as well, the offense fell of GREATLY after the win at Texas. If you want some reasoning, in 2011, Holgorsen ran only the offense, he was relying on the experienced defensive staff to handle their own. in 2012 he tried to do the same, and when it became clear that Efore could not run the defense, Holgorsen had his first dealing with really being a HC, and I attribute that in part to his problems since on offense. Holgorsen is learning, but is he learning fast enough? WVU can ill afford to have several shitty seasons in a row, or recruiting will suffer greatly.

I did not mention the defense in my post because I was simply responding to your statement that the offense has struggled greatly while Dana has learned to be a HC. You never brought up the defense. Even if we now use your new premise that he could simply concentrate on the offense his first year because of Casteel, we saw Dana's offense improve even more his 2nd year as HC after Casteel had left.

In 2013, WVU is averaging 397 yds/gm, and has a scoring average of 25 pts/gm.

In 2010, WVU averaged 373 yds/gm, and had a scoring average of 25 pts/gm.

I know DC went over the scoring and offensive production averages following the Texas game. The numbers were all very solid. I will not rehash this point with you again.

So, you think the offense is struggling this year largely due to his concern over the defense? You discount everything spelled out in Mike Casazza's article? Or David Hickman's article?

Consecutive shitty seasons have not hampered Pitt's recruiting over time. Nor has it affected Tennessee's or Kentucky's.

 

[bbwvfan]

Stats are a bunch of crap when you look at the win/loss picture, it's like saying we won the battle but lost the war. Statistical analysis of this season would say we should have a better record, for sure, but when our losing at the pace we are, there is something terribly wrong, and it clearly goes beyond the numbers on a piece of paper. And, can only point in one direction, the ability to lead and inspire young men to the point of giving it all on the field, playing better than one might actually be capable of. There are those coaches who defy explanation, sometimes even expectations, of which Dana Holgerson is neither. I know people don't like to hear it, but at what point do we get a clear head and begin to see the truth, not holding on to some obscure numbers from the past as some tool to project a positive that does not exist? Mark my words, one more year of this type of play on the field, no matter what the stats say, and our program is going to be in trouble, and as I have heard countless times now, it will take 5 years to correct the failure of the last 5 years of recruiting stupidity. You cannot lose like this in the Big 12 and gain anything, we did that in the Big Least, several times, but we have much much more at stake here now. Failure in the Big 12 begats failure, not grow, because failure means no top level recruits, Morgantown does not yet have enough to entice the top kids into a losing program. We may get there(as far as what Morgantown and WVU have to offer) in the future, but right now, this moment, we are vastly behind in services, facilities and entertainment, and the good old days of the family atmosphere and serenity, are gone, because the new recruits WANT, winning, the ability to party and to have a chance of being the top picks in the NFL. Based on our current roster, the pickings for an NFL draft are very very slim. Last years 3 picks will not be seen for many years to come. A really good coach could probably raise the bar for our roster, and this coach doesn't have that quality or desire, because he believes he is perfect in every way, in his mind, it's all the players fault.

Jim,

I couldn't agree more with you. Stats do not tell the whole picture. Of course we all know you can slant the stats in a way to support your argument as well.

I was simply responding to DAD's comment that the offense has struggled greatly while Dana is learning how to be a HC. Until this season, the offense had shown remarkable improvement since he started as WVU's HC.

I don't agree with your argument or those of your 78 friends with ties to WV that it will take 5 yrs to turn around this program.

I can point to so many examples of coaches turning around doormat programs in a short time period. We can simply look at Vandy and Ole Miss in the SEC… Baylor in the Big 12… Duke in the ACC.

I know you are onboard with the facility upgrades WVU needs to improve their competitiveness in getting better recruits. We are so far beyond our peers… it is truly disgraceful.

Anyone who thinks this HC and staff cannot recruit… have no idea what these guys are up against. To get kids to accept coming to WVU when even our neighbor up the Mon River has better facilities than us… is monumental.

 

[bbwvfan]

This year's team will be able to sell the NFL to recruits. Sims will be carrying and catching on Sundays. Will Clark and Shaq Rowell are two more who should be making money playing on Sundays as well.

Add these 3 to the wall in the new weight room…

 

[WVUDAD]

I did not mention the defense in my post because I was simply responding to your statement that the offense has struggled greatly while Dana has learned to be a HC. You never brought up the defense. Even if we now use your new premise that he could simply concentrate on the offense his first year because of Casteel, we saw Dana's offense improve even more his 2nd year as HC after Casteel had left.

In 2013, WVU is averaging 397 yds/gm, and has a scoring average of 25 pts/gm.

In 2010, WVU averaged 373 yds/gm, and had a scoring average of 25 pts/gm.

I know DC went over the scoring and offensive production averages following the Texas game. The numbers were all very solid. I will not rehash this point with you again.

So, you think the offense is struggling this year largely due to his concern over the defense? You discount everything spelled out in Mike Casazza's article? Or David Hickman's article?

Consecutive shitty seasons have not hampered Pitt's recruiting over time. Nor has it affected Tennessee's or Kentucky's.

????? Kentucky?????? Come on BB, you say out of one side of your mouth how hard it is to recruit kids to come here, but then say losing will not hurt recruiting????????? Yeah scoring 7 points each against TT and KSU was a VERY solid offensive performance in the two weeks following scoring 48 AT Texas. WOW.

 

[bbwvfan]

????? Kentucky?????? Come on BB, you say out of one side of your mouth how hard it is to recruit kids to come here, but then say losing will not hurt recruiting????????? Yeah scoring 7 points each against TT and KSU was a VERY solid offensive performance in the two weeks following scoring 48 AT Texas. WOW.

Are you implying that UK's facilities are on par with WVU?

Cherry pick much?

 

[bbwvfan]

DAD,

I will use your cherry picking skills…

After the UT game last year, WVU scored 49 and had 778 yds of offense against OU. They scored 59 and had 647 yds of offense against KU.

 

[bbwvfan]

Here is an article detailing preliminary plans for renovations/upgrades and additions to the UK football stadium and practice facility. Contracts are signed…

Contracts signed, time line set for Commonwealth Stadium renovation | Football | Kentucky.com

 

[bbwvfan]

Scout.com: Football Recruiting

Kentucky currently has the #11 ranked recruiting class according to Scout. They are 2-9 this year. They went 2-10 last year. They went 5-7 in 2011.

Tennessee has the #2 ranked recruiting class according to Scout. They are 4-7 this year. They went 5-7 in 2012. They went 5-7 in 2011.

What was the question about long term losing and how it affects recruiting efforts?

 

[WVUDAD]

Scout.com: Football Recruiting

Kentucky currently has the #11 ranked recruiting class according to Scout. They are 2-9 this year. They went 2-10 last year. They went 5-7 in 2011.

Tennessee has the #2 ranked recruiting class according to Scout. They are 4-7 this year. They went 5-7 in 2012. They went 5-7 in 2011.

What was the question about long term losing and how it affects recruiting efforts?

THEY have in state kids to recruit, WVU does not have more than 10 in state kids to choose from most years. I find it strange that you said the recruiting rankings meant nothing when 2009 and 2010 classes at WVU were ranked highly. BUT now they are meaningful.........

 

[JIMKOON]

Jim,

I couldn't agree more with you. Stats do not tell the whole picture. Of course we all know you can slant the stats in a way to support your argument as well.

I was simply responding to DAD's comment that the offense has struggled greatly while Dana is learning how to be a HC. Until this season, the offense had shown remarkable improvement since he started as WVU's HC.

I don't agree with your argument or those of your 78 friends with ties to WV that it will take 5 yrs to turn around this program.

I can point to so many examples of coaches turning around doormat programs in a short time period. We can simply look at Vandy and Ole Miss in the SEC… Baylor in the Big 12… Duke in the ACC.

I know you are onboard with the facility upgrades WVU needs to improve their competitiveness in getting better recruits. We are so far beyond our peers… it is truly disgraceful.

Anyone who thinks this HC and staff cannot recruit… have no idea what these guys are up against. To get kids to accept coming to WVU when even our neighbor up the Mon River has better facilities than us… is monumental.

I will only respond to the recruiting. Number one, each of the schools you mentioned have IN STATE high school talent about 5000 times better than West Virginia, they recruit that talent agressively, and it becomes a state pride issue. Take a deeper look at their recruits, where they come from, and you will see the kids who stay close to home. Now, tell me how many 4 star and 5 star kids come out of West virginia? How many stay in state? Who was the last Heisman winner from West Virginia? Yes I agree, all of those schools, despite records, recruit and get top talent, and each of those schools have some serious facilities, great educational programs and local down time entertainment? WVU has less than average facilities, great educational programs and for local entertainment they offer couch burning 101, climb Coopers Rock, sled riding down 8th street, a handful of sleezy men's clubs and get drunk night(7 days a week), oh yes, the single largest number of fast food joints. Be honest BB, if you were a kid, and you were a good football player say from Texas, and you were being recruited by Texas and West Virginia, please, be honest, who would you choose? Having been on both campuses, and been in both facilities, and looked at the classrooms, transportation, housing, fun things to do, I tell you who's offer I would accept, Texas, even with my love of West Virginia, we just don't have what it takes yet. We joined the Big 12 without being ready for the jump to big time college football. The fans based it on occasional wins, not understanding a regular diet of upper class college programs was nothing we had to compare it too. We can hope all we want, but we better wake up to some serious deficiencies that will be a terrible mountain to overcome if we continue to lose. Once more, we continue to look forward with blinders, thinking small while being in a very large arena, and for those who think losing is somehow going to entice the top talent, well, I'm sorry, but it has to be too much moonshine in the veins. We have got to find a coach with driving force to not only lay out offensive schemes, but inspire players to greatness, to elevate beyond basic skill. Again, sorry, that man is not Dana Holgerson, and it never was. We need a coach of the caliber of Saban or Meyer. I have no clue if that personality is out there right now, but we need to search, long and hard, balance it not only by points and stats, but the personality and character to be a teacher, to scold equitably, but professionally. I don't mind emotion, But I have complete distain for out of control temper.

 

[WVUDAD]

JIM, I do not get where you and some others keep saying WVU has bad facilities, how many other stadiums have you been in? I live in Columbus, and John Cooper came home from OSU at WVU several years ago wanting to copy the WVU indoor facility. WVU has a world class weight room, has a training table that cant be beat. Holgorsen is trying to remove some of the heat for a failed season from himself. When Fraud bolted and Pastilong was going after Jimbo, a MAJOR mistake was made by whoever couldn't keep their mouth shut!!!!!!!! When Holgorsen gets his new meeting rooms, next it will be the wallpaper in the executive shithouse that caused a loss. I agree 100% that Holgorsen is NOT the guy.

 

[JIMKOON]

JIM, I do not get where you and some others keep saying WVU has bad facilities, how many other stadiums have you been in? I live in Columbus, and John Cooper came home from OSU at WVU several years ago wanting to copy the WVU indoor facility. WVU has a world class weight room, has a training table that cant be beat. Holgorsen is trying to remove some of the heat for a failed season from himself. When Fraud bolted and Pastilong was going after Jimbo, a MAJOR mistake was made by whoever couldn't keep their mouth shut!!!!!!!! When Holgorsen gets his new meeting rooms, next it will be the wallpaper in the executive shithouse that caused a loss. I agree 100% that Holgorsen is NOT the guy.

I could give two craps about Ohio State Prison. Have you seen the facilities at our Big 12 brethren? The schools we compete against for recruits? I think not, and referencing a Big 10 facility shows a complete misunderstanding of where WVU needs to be on your part. We are not eastern football anymore Dad, if we keep on with attitudes like yours, then we might as well keep Holgerson and become the laughing stock of the Big 12.

I wish you could see things differently, but you are never going to. Fans like you are the exact form of shortsightedness that destroys programs long term. Alas, you are what you are. And please, just don't respond, I'm too old to put up with your stupidity!

 

[WVUDAD]

I could give two craps about Ohio State Prison. Have you seen the facilities at our Big 12 brethren? The schools we compete against for recruits? I think not, and referencing a Big 10 facility shows a complete misunderstanding of where WVU needs to be on your part. We are not eastern football anymore Dad, if we keep on with attitudes like yours, then we might as well keep Holgerson and become the laughing stock of the Big 12.

I wish you could see things differently, but you are never going to. Fans like you are the exact form of shortsightedness that destroys programs long term. Alas, you are what you are. And please, just don't respond, I'm too old to put up with your stupidity!

UHHHH, WVU recruits against EVERY other team in the nation, kids do NOT decide what league they want to play in, then pick a school. WVU NEEDS to get the kids from Eastern OH and Western PA, THAT is our home area. We compete more against sPitt, PSU, UMD, OSU for recruits than we do against Texas or Kansas. Look down our current roster, FLA, OH, WV, PA, NJ are our hot recruiting areas.

 

[WVUDAD]

I travel extensively for work Jim, and have seen every facility in the B12 except KU and Baylor, and they are NOT head and shoulders above WVU's , so before you think or think not, maybe look at something before you just blindly repeat what you heard.

 

[mad2mc]

I could give two craps about Ohio State Prison. Have you seen the facilities at our Big 12 brethren? The schools we compete against for recruits? I think not, and referencing a Big 10 facility shows a complete misunderstanding of where WVU needs to be on your part. We are not eastern football anymore Dad, if we keep on with attitudes like yours, then we might as well keep Holgerson and become the laughing stock of the Big 12.

I wish you could see things differently, but you are never going to. Fans like you are the exact form of shortsightedness that destroys programs long term. Alas, you are what you are. And please, just don't respond, I'm too old to put up with your stupidity!

Don't waste your time, Jim. He has been this way for years ever since fans on CBS turned on Stewart and it just magnified when he was shown the door. The posters who called for Stewart's dismissal after Stewarts first season do not post on here. After Stewart's third season (or so) there were more who did not like what he was doing.

Save your health. It is not worth getting into a battle with him as he will say you are 'pouring piss', personally attacking him, or twist words in an attempt to take the high road. When you hear guys like BB or others mentioning Stewart, it is not a personal attack on the man, it is an attempt to make a point. You have admitted that you felt that Stewart was not the man for the job, as many of us felt; however, there were many on here who were willing to give him a chance. I do not feel that Stewart would have done any better in the Big XII, but as you said, we will never know. I do not like what I have seen this season; however, I hope this will change as the pieces are put together. I'm of the mindset to let this coach grow as a coach in a conference that he is familiar with while bringing in the recruits needed to compete in this conference. For the season, it appears as if this team competed to the level of its competition.

 

[JIMKOON]

I travel extensively for work Jim, and have seen every facility in the B12 except KU and Baylor, and they are NOT head and shoulders above WVU's , so before you think or think not, maybe look at something before you just blindly repeat what you heard.

You sir are a pathetic liar, at best. I lived in Big 12 country for 33 years before retirement, I DID tour every single college campus in the Big 12 as I taught an accounting exit class for the AICPA, and I certify that every single school in the Big 12 has facilities 10000 times better than WVU, 10000 times Dad. They also have services, housing, entertainment, ALL the things current recruits DEMAND in order to get them to sign on the dotted line. Like I said before, you need to grow some Mountaineer size balls. Your no Mountaineer fan, your that breed of anti-fan who spews force bullcrap from your mouth(in this case, fingers). Now, put me on ignore because I'm no letting some false fan give me a heart attack because of your absolute stupidity.

I am ignoring you!