2015 class

[WVUDAD]

BB, and Jim, I have said many times on here, that I did not like the way Stewart was hired, and did not think he was a good choice. BUT once he was hired and did a good job, I found a connection to him. In JR high we played against his team, and I met him, don't remember much other than that. BUT I liked him as our coach, he did not always have a great game plan, but he got the kids to play hard for him, and oozed WVU football from every pore!!!! What pisses me off is what you said above, that WVU lost back to back games to inferior opponents turned you against Stewart, that being said, how are you still on the Holgorsen bandwagon??? We have lost game after game to inferior opponents!!! I say Holgorsen should get next year, and without MEASURABLE improvement, he needs to go. I stand by a statement I made that was ridiculed by many on this board: hire a coach who has been a head coach at a smaller school, one that knows how to coach, and only needs to learn the politics of a bigger school, but already can run the team.

 

[bbwvfan]

What pisses me off is what you said above, that WVU lost back to back games to inferior opponents turned you against Stewart, that being said, how are you still on the Holgorsen bandwagon???

It has to do with the circumstances involving the team the last two years, and how I feel it has impacted the results.

In 2010, WVU lost to SU and UConn with an inability to even move the ball in the 2nd half against either club. There were no injuries of significance. In the '09 Gator, Stewart lost to FSU by doing nothing in the 2nd half of that bowl game. They opened the '10 season with a lackluster effort against Coastal followed by a lucky win over Marshall. I had seen enough...

 

[WVUDAD]

It has to do with the circumstances involving the team the last two years, and how I feel it has impacted the results.

In 2010, WVU lost to SU and UConn with an inability to even move the ball in the 2nd half against either club. There were no injuries of significance. In the '09 Gator, Stewart lost to FSU by doing nothing in the 2nd half of that bowl game. They opened the '10 season with a lackluster effort against Coastal followed by a lucky win over Marshall. I had seen enough...

...... They opened the 2013 season with a LUCKY lackluster win against W&M, a loss against OU that gave us hope, a win against the worst team in 1A, and a blowout loss to UMd, and NO BOWL to lose. ........ I ask again, how are you still on the bandwagon? Our ONE quality win this year was because OSU could not catch the ball, talk about a lucky win. I just do not see where there is any excitement about where this team is going. That loss to Kansas is the worst loss WVU has had since 2001 with the loss to Temple. Had WVU finished this season with wins against KU and IAST, I might have some optimism, but that loss to KU in my opinion, as well as everyone I know, sank any credibility Holgorsen had.

 

[WVUDAD]

It has to do with the circumstances involving the team the last two years, and how I feel it has impacted the results.

In 2010, WVU lost to SU and UConn with an inability to even move the ball in the 2nd half against either club. There were no injuries of significance. In the '09 Gator, Stewart lost to FSU by doing nothing in the 2nd half of that bowl game. They opened the '10 season with a lackluster effort against Coastal followed by a lucky win over Marshall. I had seen enough...

That 2010 team also LEARNED from those two losses, and finished the season with four convincing wins. They improved as the season went on, something I have yet to see under this staff.

 

[bbwvfan]

That 2010 team also LEARNED from those two losses, and finished the season with four convincing wins. They improved as the season went on, something I have yet to see under this staff.

They were able to win the last 4. However, outside of Pitt… none of those opponents had a winning record during the regular season… and, outside of Pitt… none had a winning BE conference record.

Here is a comment from ESPN's write up about the Pitt game…

The Mountaineers scored three touchdowns in the second half, two more than they had after halftime in their first five conference games combined.

Pretty much sums it all for me…

 

[WvuDieHard]

Well I am in BB's corner on this. Injuries and a young football team are to blame for this season NOT DANA HOLGERSON. Old Billy Stew couldn't say that could he? And don't get me wrong, I had met Bill personally and talked to him several times at Lakeview on Friday before the games, but Billy was not a head coach. Yet, he was a true Mountaineer and wonderful human being--I really liked the guy. Billy just didn't surround himself with the right people to make up for his short comings. Dana knows the intricacies of offensive football but you have to have the personnel to execute. We don't have that right now. I am not sure Dana is going get it in here either. WVU is tough sell right now by being closer to the east coast and playing in a Southwest conference. This might be the toughest head coaching job in football in regard to recruiting. So fire Dana and bring in whoever you choose, you still wont solve the geographical nightmare that joining this conference presents.

 

[bbwvfan]

...... They opened the 2013 season with a LUCKY lackluster win against W&M, a loss against OU that gave us hope, a win against the worst team in 1A, and a blowout loss to UMd, and NO BOWL to lose. ........ I ask again, how are you still on the bandwagon? Our ONE quality win this year was because OSU could not catch the ball, talk about a lucky win. I just do not see where there is any excitement about where this team is going. That loss to Kansas is the worst loss WVU has had since 2001 with the loss to Temple. Had WVU finished this season with wins against KU and IAST, I might have some optimism, but that loss to KU in my opinion, as well as everyone I know, sank any credibility Holgorsen had.

All valid points DAD.

I would not say I am excited about the future because I have huge concerns about the future. I am guardedly optimistic about the future.

If you really want to know why, I will spell them out for you…

1. The offensive coaches… 3 of whom are new… or taking on a new role (Dawson switched from receiver coach to QB) will have had this season of working together to identify any issues affecting the team's performance. This should help them develop a cohesive plan to address said issues and work on development of player skill to improve performances. Last year, Crook was added just a couple of weeks before spring practice began. He had no knowledge of the offense prior to his arrival in Morgantown.

2. I believe a mistake was made in keeping the QB competition open after spring practice, and this prevented the development of chemistry with all of the new WR's joining forces over the summer. I expect we'll see a designated starter come out of this spring. And, then the playmakers will work on their timing issues.

3. The defense will lose some key personnel, but the LB Corps and secondary will have a lot of kids back.

4. The offense is losing some guys off the line, but most of the offense is coming back. I expect to see huge improvement in their production next season. Many of the JUCO's who played this season, joined the team in the summer. I expect growth in both their understanding of the offense and how to correctly read the defense… to be quite noticeable next year.

5. Dana is finally getting depth. He was able to RS 15 kids this fall. To this point, I believe he lost but 2 kids from last year's recruiting class. That gives me hope for a brighter future.

 

[WVUDAD]

Well I am in BB's corner on this. Injuries and a young football team are to blame for this season NOT DANA HOLGERSON. Old Billy Stew couldn't say that could he? And don't get me wrong, I had met Bill personally and talked to him several times at Lakeview on Friday before the games, but Billy was not a head coach. Yet, he was a true Mountaineer and wonderful human being--I really liked the guy. Billy just didn't surround himself with the right people to make up for his short comings. Dana knows the intricacies of offensive football but you have to have the personnel to execute. We don't have that right now. I am not sure Dana is going get it in here either. WVU is tough sell right now by being closer to the east coast and playing in a Southwest conference. This might be the toughest head coaching job in football in regard to recruiting. So fire Dana and bring in whoever you choose, you still wont solve the geographical nightmare that joining this conference presents.

I agree 100% and that is why I said that joining the B12 will go down as the single biggest mistake ever made by the WVU athletic department. WVU has chosen to emphasize far away recruiting areas, then hired back some guys to get back to our old hotbeds of WPA and EOH, since joining the B12, our former great area of Florida seems to be diminished, and like it or not we are not going to go to Holgorsen's familiar area and win many battles against the closer B12 teams, or the SEC teams now in that area for top recruits. A top coach could come here and win, just as Fraud did, by making the kids work hard and demanding they produce. BUT WVU is NOT a place to learn the trade. Just think, had everyone kept their mouth shut after Fraud bolted, Jimbo would be our coach now.

 

[JIMKOON]

Jim,


IMO, there is a great divide among the Mountaineer fan base. There are some like me... then there are some like I mentioned who supported Bill and hated the way Luck treated him, and want the same treatment of Bill to be placed on Dana... and, there are some who are John Raese supporters... who hate Clements, Luck, Huggs and Holgs... as they are carpetbaggers who only care about the money... they got rid of the old good ole boy network... they hate the changes put in place... and celebrate the failures of each entity. I always considered Huggs a WV boy... so, I have trouble understanding this lot.


Dana was considered one of the hottest prospects in the country when Luck hired him as the HCIW. He came heavily endorsed by Leach. I think it was certainly expected he would end up a HC somewhere in short time with his glowing record of producing one top ranked offense after another... at multiple schools.


However, just because you're a hotshot OC... does not mean you will become a hotshot HC.


We are watching a man become a HC. It has been painful at times.


But, he has quite a lot of different issues affecting his ability to produce winning results. Maybe he is not mature enough as a HC to handle all of this. But, he has shown signs of growth since his arrival, so I hope he continues down this path.


It is fine if you don't look back. However, one has to understand history to affect change for the present and for the future.

BB,if I could compare apples to apples,sure, maybe some comparison analysis could be done,but we have, what, 15-16 games in the Big 12? How can you adequately compare our Big East ventures to anything in the Big 12? Really, that is folly, because there is no comparison, even if you choose to believe that Kansas and Iowa State are as inferior as Temple and Rutgers. I actually think both of those Big 12 doormats cleanup the field on Big East former doormats, but once again, it ain't apples to apples BB, so you cannot use anything prior to our first full season in the Big 12, and that wasn't pretty. We played some great bowl games against Big 12 type teams, and nobody will evertell me anything different than that Stoopes took WVU for granted in the one big bowl game. His team was flat, he was flat, and we outplayed, outscored and outcoached their butts, but it was ONE game, not a full season, and that is what a whole bunch of Mountaineer fans forgot.

I do believe we can get to the top of the Big 12, I just don't honestly feel that it will ever be with Dana Holgerson at the helm. There was a whole bunch of good press on Holgerson's ability to generate scoring,and Leach lied, plain and simple,don't understand the why, but he lied. There were others who knew within the Big 12 that the wonder kid was not yet ready for a head coach assignment on a grand scale,and were quite pleased he was going east into the potential future member of the Big 12, which also, opened the door for Big 12 partners to come into our once rich recruitment fields and start attempting to pick them clean of top prospects. We are in a fight BB, and anyone who thinks things are going to be easy, especially losing as we have, is stuck in Big East thoughts of sugar plums. We always endured the bad seasons because there wasn't any competition from within the conference, that is not the case now, nor ever will be again as long as we are members of the Big 12. We have never experienced the backstabbing recruiting of the Big 12, never in our history. With Holgerson at the helm and losing on the field, we never will either. $11 million buyout is a cheap price to pay to start building on Sunday, for the future we all dream of. If what he is recruiting right now is representative of what he recruited the last two seasons, we cannot afford it either.

 

[WVUDAD]

BB,if I could compare apples to apples,sure, maybe some comparison analysis could be done,but we have, what, 15-16 games in the Big 12? How can you adequately compare our Big East ventures to anything in the Big 12? Really, that is folly, because there is no comparison, even if you choose to believe that Kansas and Iowa State are as inferior as Temple and Rutgers. I actually think both of those Big 12 doormats cleanup the field on Big East former doormats, but once again, it ain't apples to apples BB, so you cannot use anything prior to our first full season in the Big 12, and that wasn't pretty. We played some great bowl games against Big 12 type teams, and nobody will evertell me anything different than that Stoopes took WVU for granted in the one big bowl game. His team was flat, he was flat, and we outplayed, outscored and outcoached their butts, but it was ONE game, not a full season, and that is what a whole bunch of Mountaineer fans forgot.

I do believe we can get to the top of the Big 12, I just don't honestly feel that it will ever be with Dana Holgerson at the helm. There was a whole bunch of good press on Holgerson's ability to generate scoring,and Leach lied, plain and simple,don't understand the why, but he lied. There were others who knew within the Big 12 that the wonder kid was not yet ready for a head coach assignment on a grand scale,and were quite pleased he was going east into the potential future member of the Big 12, which also, opened the door for Big 12 partners to come into our once rich recruitment fields and start attempting to pick them clean of top prospects. We are in a fight BB, and anyone who thinks things are going to be easy, especially losing as we have, is stuck in Big East thoughts of sugar plums. We always endured the bad seasons because there wasn't any competition from within the conference, that is not the case now, nor ever will be again as long as we are members of the Big 12. We have never experienced the backstabbing recruiting of the Big 12, never in our history. With Holgerson at the helm and losing on the field, we never will either. $11 million buyout is a cheap price to pay to start building on Sunday, for the future we all dream of. If what he is recruiting right now is representative of what he recruited the last two seasons, we cannot afford it either.

Jim, WVU has indeed seen the back stabbing of big time recruiting, back when the CFB world was full of the big independents. Bowden, Cignetti, and Nehlen ALL went head to head against sPitt, PSU, 'Cuse, OSU, scUM, the Carolina schools, Maryland, and the Eastern schools, and the recruiting trail against them was every bit as stabbed in the back, filled with lies, PLUS the golden handshakes given out by Jackie Sherrill and the like. You guys want to constantly put down the BE, which was stronger than you want to admit, PLUS WVU played a pretty damned good OOC schedule during those years!!!! WVU bought out of OOC games against FSU and MSU when we joined the B12, you might argue that IAST is better than Rutgers, but both FSU and MSU PLUS UL and CFU make a pretty strong schedule. Quit acting like WVU football started life in 2012!

 

[bbwvfan]

Just think, had everyone kept their mouth shut after Fraud bolted, Jimbo would be our coach now.

I have heard that it was a done deal with Jimbo… he had told his family he was coming to WVU to be their HC. And, the BOG put a stop to it. They did not want to get involved in paying off his buy-out clause.

Jimbo is a WV boy, so maybe his antics would be accepted by WVU fans better than Dana's? I dunno… but, he is a loudmouth hothead too.

Fortunately, he lives and coaches in FL, and FSU can recruit well. So, he is in a good place…

 

[bbwvfan]

How can you adequately compare our Big East ventures to anything in the Big 12?

I understand what you're saying. IMO, I think we have to look at the history of the BE before VT, Miami and BC left the conference. At that point, you had 6 strong teams and 2 terrible teams. But, it certainly required similar depth to what we see today. All we have to do is look back at some of WVU's poor teams during Nehlen's tenure… '95 when WVU faced #10 VT, #19 SU, and #20 Miami; or '99 when WVU faced two ranked teams in #2 VT and #15 Miami to see the effect of playing a deeper schedule with a lack of quality depth could do to a team. In '95 Marc Bulger sustained injury, and no one was able to step up.

There were others who knew within the Big 12 that the wonder kid was not yet ready for a head coach assignment on a grand scale,and were quite pleased he was going east into the potential future member of the Big 12, which also, opened the door for Big 12 partners to come into our once rich recruitment fields and start attempting to pick them clean of top prospects.

I find it hard to see how anyone in the Big 12 could foretell the inclusion of WVU when it was announced Dana was hired to be the HCIW. WVU was a solid member of the BE at that time. And, while Luck attempted to approach the ACC for membership, the Big 12 was not on the radar at that time. When Dana was hired, it was more a reaction to TCU's upcoming membership in the BE. Luck wanted to keep WVU ahead of the pack, and knew TCU posed the biggest threat. As we all know… his reference to winning National Championships… was clearly meant to go thru the BE… not the Big 12.

Not sure the recruiting grounds favored by WVU open any fertile territory for Big 12 schools. ISU and WVU recruit FL more heavily than all others. But, TX will always be the #1 state for Big 12 schools.

If what he is recruiting right now is representative of what he recruited the last two seasons, we cannot afford it either.

I don't understand this POV. His recruits out of high school are either sophomores, RS Fr, or true Fr. There are some kids who look like very good football players to me… right now. I cannot wait to see how much better they will look in another year or two.

 

[WVUDAD]

I understand what you're saying. IMO, I think we have to look at the history of the BE before VT, Miami and BC left the conference. At that point, you had 6 strong teams and 2 terrible teams. But, it certainly required similar depth to what we see today. All we have to do is look back at some of WVU's poor teams during Nehlen's tenure… '95 when WVU faced #10 VT, #19 SU, and #20 Miami; or '99 when WVU faced two ranked teams in #2 VT and #15 Miami to see the effect of playing a deeper schedule with a lack of quality depth could do to a team. In '95 Marc Bulger sustained injury, and no one was able to step up.



I find it hard to see how anyone in the Big 12 could foretell the inclusion of WVU when it was announced Dana was hired to be the HCIW. WVU was a solid member of the BE at that time. And, while Luck attempted to approach the ACC for membership, the Big 12 was not on the radar at that time. When Dana was hired, it was more a reaction to TCU's upcoming membership in the BE. Luck wanted to keep WVU ahead of the pack, and knew TCU posed the biggest threat. As we all know… his reference to winning National Championships… was clearly meant to go thru the BE… not the Big 12.

Not sure the recruiting grounds favored by WVU open any fertile territory for Big 12 schools. ISU and WVU recruit FL more heavily than all others. But, TX will always be the #1 state for Big 12 schools.



I don't understand this POV. His recruits out of high school are either sophomores, RS Fr, or true Fr. There are some kids who look like very good football players to me… right now. I cannot wait to see how much better they will look in another year or two.

I think Holgorsen and his staff CAN recruit talent, I think the issue is with getting the kids ready for game day, and the in game decisions. I think Holgorsen made a mistake in hiring Efore as DC, and that set the team back several years. Had he hired Efore to do STs, and Patterson as DC in the first place when Casteel and Co left, we would be better off today.

 

[bbwvfan]

Well I am in BB's corner on this. Injuries and a young football team are to blame for this season NOT DANA HOLGERSON. Old Billy Stew couldn't say that could he? And don't get me wrong, I had met Bill personally and talked to him several times at Lakeview on Friday before the games, but Billy was not a head coach. Yet, he was a true Mountaineer and wonderful human being--I really liked the guy. Billy just didn't surround himself with the right people to make up for his short comings. Dana knows the intricacies of offensive football but you have to have the personnel to execute. We don't have that right now. I am not sure Dana is going get it in here either. WVU is tough sell right now by being closer to the east coast and playing in a Southwest conference. This might be the toughest head coaching job in football in regard to recruiting. So fire Dana and bring in whoever you choose, you still wont solve the geographical nightmare that joining this conference presents.

DieHard,

I am not sure the recruiting rankings reveal a negative effect. I will use Scout's ranking system, and I will show the rankings for RichRod's golden years, Billy's three years, and the last two years in which WVU has been a member of the Big 12.

2006 - tie #56
2007 - #18
2008 - #36

Not much of a sustained bump following the success of PW, SS and the Sugar Bowl win.

2009 - #22
2010 - #30
2011 - #54

As has been cited, the classes were slipping… and, there was a problem with getting kids in school and staying in the program.

2012 - #26
2013 - #28

 

[bbwvfan]

I think Holgorsen and his staff CAN recruit talent, I think the issue is with getting the kids ready for game day, and the in game decisions. I think Holgorsen made a mistake in hiring Efore as DC, and that set the team back several years. Had he hired Efore to do STs, and Patterson as DC in the first place when Casteel and Co left, we would be better off today.

I agree that the DeForest hire looks terrible today. Dana only spent one year at Okie St, but he must have seen something in DeForest. DeForest was not his first target. He attempted to get Venables, and was rumored to be going after a coach on the NY Jets staff… I cannot remember whom.

As WVU was heading to the Big 12, I thought it seemed reasonable to hire an assistant coach with years of experience of coaching defense in the conference. From what I've heard talking to an SU coach who is friends with Dunlap… DeForest tried to be too complicated with what he asked of the kids.

Looking back at the complaints most had of Bill Stewart, it was questioned why he would hire an OC whom had no previous OC experience. I think it is fair to question Dana in the same way when he hired DeForest.

 

[GoldRusher]

I heard talk this past couple of days from MAC guys who say they will raise the money for the buyout just to end all this money talk. Their concerns are about the future, and that two more years of this coach, and we face 5 more years after that in correcting the ship. They strongly believe that the on the field play with continual losing WILL begin to effect even the guys we have who are excellent recruiters. We cannot find continued success in Florida and New York, for recruits to compete in the Big 12, and our present showing in the Big 12 is a brickwall to the Texas/Oklahoma pipeline of talent. We have to be concerned when we fail so miserably against a Kansas team laden with 3-mid 3 star players who no other Big 12 team even saw as a third stringer in that hotbed Big 12 recruitment arena. We don't play Big East brand football anymore, we have to eventually grow a Big 12 mentality, and that is where some of us seem to be stuck in our opinions of where this program is. 5-6 lower 4 star recruits a year from Texas/Oklahoma, is not going to build a team with the rest coming from east coast style programs. It doesn't work, it has never worked and living in a pipe dream of thinking it can work, does this program no good, period. I desire a coach with the ability to lead. I desire a coach who can sell Morgantown and all it's good attributes to those top of the class recruits. I want a product on the field that displays the pride of ALL Mountaineer fans, not just a handful here and there flipping nasty's at one another. We do not have that type of program at WVU, and given the current coach, we never will either.

I suppose it could be done but I have a hard time believing THAT much money could be raised for that buyout PLUS enough for a good new hire, I mean if we are not going to get a better HC (which will cost us) what's the point? 11mm (or somewhere in that neighborhood) plus the expense of the new HC and staff? We are talking big bucks, big bucks that could also be used for facility upgrades or better assistants, maybe a high profile DC? What's Tom Bradley up to these days? How would Bo Pelini do in Morgantown as a DC? How much would they ( or a DC of their caliber) cost and how effective could a move like that be with the rest of this staff in place in 5 years compared to an overhaul from the HC on down when most tabbed this as a possible rough year anyway? That move could also be risking even more fan apathy if the new guy cant hit it out of the park in his first 2 years? Just a thought.

Again I'm not trying to say Dana is the answer long term, I honestly can see both arguments, but I don't think firing him this year is the right move.

 

[WVUDAD]

I agree that the DeForest hire looks terrible today. Dana only spent one year at Okie St, but he must have seen something in DeForest. DeForest was not his first target. He attempted to get Venables, and was rumored to be going after a coach on the NY Jets staff… I cannot remember whom.

As WVU was heading to the Big 12, I thought it seemed reasonable to hire an assistant coach with years of experience of coaching defense in the conference. From what I've heard talking to an SU coach who is friends with Dunlap… DeForest tried to be too complicated with what he asked of the kids.

Looking back at the complaints most had of Bill Stewart, it was questioned why he would hire an OC whom had no previous OC experience. I think it is fair to question Dana in the same way when he hired DeForest.

Another fair question is why a man with no head coaching experience was hired as head coach of a major program. It seems that the offense has suffered greatly as Holgorsen struggles to learn how to be a head coach.

 

[WvuDieHard]

Another fair question is why a man with no head coaching experience was hired as head coach of a major program. It seems that the offense has suffered greatly as Holgorsen struggles to learn how to be a head coach.

He didn't have any experience when he hung 70 on Clemson either. All this does is prove a point, we don't have the players to execute the game plan and offensive scheme.

 

[bbwvfan]

Another fair question is why a man with no head coaching experience was hired as head coach of a major program. It seems that the offense has suffered greatly as Holgorsen struggles to learn how to be a head coach.

I'm guessing you are referring to this year only?

I am pretty sure DC provided this info for you earlier in the season. But, just a little FYI…

2010 Total Offense - #67 Ranking with 373 yds/gm Scoring Offense - #78 Ranking with 25 pts/gm
2011 Total Offense - #15 Ranking with 470 yds/gm Scoring Offense - #13 Ranking with 38 pts/gm
2012 Total Offense - #10 Ranking with 502 yds/gm Scoring Offense - #9 Ranking with 39 pts/gm

So, in Dana's first two years as HC… learning on the job… he improved the offense from a #67 ranking in Total Offense to a #15 ranking while playing in the BE. A much more defensively minded conference than the Big 12 I've heard some say on this board.

And, you want to say the offense has struggled greatly?

 

[bbwvfan]

He didn't have any experience when he hung 70 on Clemson either. All this does is prove a point, we don't have the players to execute the game plan and offensive scheme.

Why is this point so difficult for some to understand?