Series Thread: 1) Toronto Raptors vs 4) Cleveland Cavs

[Heatles84]

THe defensive arguments are interesting.

Here is my take:

Jordan was the better defender for longer.

But, the accolades are misleading. DPOY says you are a great defender, but it isn't the end all be all on the conversation between 2 players. LeBron could have won one at some point. It is a very subjective award.

i don't think it is as open and shut as the accolades make it appear, at least on defense. LeBron at his peak was every bit as good a defender as Jordan at his peak, IMO.

You're right, which is why I mentioned the Miami years. DPOY is a subjective award, just like MVP.

Having said that, I've seen Lebron's defensive play go to shit where he's no longer even a all-nba defense team candidate. This is so he has energy on the offensive end.

Basically, the way that sounds is Lebron's willing to sacrifice defense so that he could be more effective on the offensive end which will garner more stats and inevitably, praise.

 

[Heatles84]

Yep, pretty much how I feel too. Do you have LeBron past everyone else though, like Magic and KAJ?

I've said this before - but Lebron's in that group. If he were to retire now, he'd be behind them as #4. But my eyes see Lebron as better than Magic and as the #2 overall best player.

Where I think Lebron will end up though on most people's list is #2 when his career is done.

 

[msgkings322]

The player that I didn't care for when he played but as time has gone on have grown a great amount of respect for is Larry Bird. Going back and watching some of his games in college and the NBA I'm amazed at the things he did and the way he saw the game before it happened.

Agreed. Jason Kidd had that too.

 

[msgkings322]

You're right, which is why I mentioned the Miami years. DPOY is a subjective award, just like MVP.

Having said that, I've seen Lebron's defensive play go to shit where he's no longer even a all-nba defense team candidate. This is so he has energy on the offensive end.

Basically, the way that sounds is Lebron's willing to sacrifice defense so that he could be more effective on the offensive end which will garner more stats and inevitably, praise.

When MJ was LeBron's age he wasn't the defensive force anymore either.

 

[tlance]

For me it's hard to compare the two. Different eras. When you get down to it neither had great supporting cast. Except in Miami. Pippin turned out to be vastly overrated. Grant was solid. Rodman was a one trick pony. Love and Irving were good. The big thing that stands out to me(possibly because it's a major issue for my team) is coaching. Jordan had a great system in place. Lebron has never had a great coach or system.
As far as a top 10 again it's hard because of eras. The game and the rules have changed so much.

Pippen was overrated?

Based on what? He was arguably the second best player in the league the year MJ missed and he led the Bulls to near upset of East champ Knicks in the 2nd round. If not for a phantom foul called on Hubert Davis, the Bulls could have easily made the NBA Finals that year.

If your comment is based an what he accomplished after leaving Chicago, he injured his back during the '98 season and was a shell of his former self afterwards.

Pippen was the best perimeter defender of all time, IMO, and he was a damn good facilitator/secondary option Offensively. He was the perfect compliment for MJ.

 

[tlance]

You're right, which is why I mentioned the Miami years. DPOY is a subjective award, just like MVP.

Having said that, I've seen Lebron's defensive play go to shit where he's no longer even a all-nba defense team candidate. This is so he has energy on the offensive end.

Basically, the way that sounds is Lebron's willing to sacrifice defense so that he could be more effective on the offensive end which will garner more stats and inevitably, praise.

Agreed.

 

[Heatles84]

When MJ was LeBron's age he wasn't the defensive force anymore either.

Can't agree with that. MJ made 1st team all defense from 96-98. Lebron's no where near as good as he was in Miami.

 

[Scapegoat]

Pippen was overrated?

Based on what? He was arguably the second best player in the league the year MJ missed and he led the Bulls to near upset of East champ Knicks in the 2nd round. If not for a phantom foul called on Hubert Davis, the Bulls could have easily made the NBA Finals that year.

If your comment is based an what he accomplished after leaving Chicago, he injured his back during the '98 season and was a shell of his former self afterwards.

Pippen was the best perimeter defender of all time, IMO, and he was a damn good facilitator/secondary option Offensively. He was the perfect compliment for MJ.

Pippen was voted at top 50 player of all time. He's not even close to top 50. Playing off of Jordan he played great. His style was a perfect fit to complement Jordan. But he was very much a complementary player. He was a very good defender. Pippen alone was just a good player. If Pippen was a great player then I would argue so was Tony Kukoc.

 

[tlance]

Pippen was voted at top 50 player of all time. He's not even close to top 50. Playing off of Jordan he played great. His style was a perfect fit to complement Jordan. But he was very much a complementary player. He was a very good defender. Pippen alone was just a good player. If Pippen was a great player then I would argue so was Tony Kukoc.

No way.

Again, how do you explain 1994?

The Bulls were a 55 win team without MJ, as good as anybody in the Eastern Conference.

You are vastly understating Pippen's impact. He is the best Robin I have ever seen. In fact, Jordan is overrated because Pippen is underrated. Pippen is easily a top 30 player of all time. It is criminal that he never won DPOY.

 

[OregonDucks]

I guess why people see it differently between LeBron's all-star teams in Miami and with Kyrie/Love in Cleveland and MJ's all-star Bulls team is....

besides Rodman, Pippen was a grown All-Star in Chicago with Jordan. It wasn't like Jordan left a team to go join other all-stars, and than came back to Chicago after rodman had been acquired and Pippen grew to be an all-star.

Jordan was in Chicago from the beginning, Pippen grew to be an all-star WITH Jordan, and Rodman was acquired. And in the end, even though Pip and Rodman were all-stars, they still didn't get it done without Jordan.

 

[tlance]

I guess why people see it differently between LeBron's all-star teams in Miami and with Kyrie/Love in Cleveland and MJ's all-star Bulls team is....

besides Rodman, Pippen was a grown All-Star in Chicago with Jordan. It wasn't like Jordan left a team to go join other all-stars, and than came back to Chicago after rodman had been acquired and Pippen grew to be an all-star.

Jordan was in Chicago from the beginning, Pippen grew to be an all-star WITH Jordan, and Rodman was acquired. And in the end, even though Pip and Rodman were all-stars, they still didn't get it done without Jordan.

And Jordan didn't get done without Pippen. It works both ways.

 

[Scapegoat]

No way.

Again, how do you explain 1994?

The Bulls were a 55 win team without MJ, as good as anybody in the Eastern Conference.

You are vastly understating Pippen's impact. He is the best Robin I have ever seen. In fact, Jordan is overrated because Pippen is underrated. Pippen is easily a top 30 player of all time. It is criminal that he never won DPOY.

This might be the biggest disagreement we've had yet.

 

[tlance]

This might be the biggest disagreement we've had yet.

It's all good.

That's what these boards are for. Love Pippen though. He did all the little things to help his team win, even if he is super petty today when talking about current players.

 

[wildturkey]

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

Wiggy, do you have Parkinson's? Reason I ask is that I'm assuming you made your avi.

I think thats what he wants me to post as my avi for 14 days

#likeigiveafuck

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

He fucking owns Toronto.

 

[Iggloo]

For the Halo fans out there...

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

@WiggyRuss

FML
Just found out my wife wants to go to my nieces graduation party in Cuyahoga Falls June 2.

 

[DorianRo]

Well on the bright side for Toronto, they get rid of that useless coach after Game 4. He's just horrid.

 

[DJ]

I am sure DeRozan is gone after this season. He was unhappy he was benched at the end of the game, and instead of trying to fix that and work harder and correct the issue, he will demand a trade to go somewhere else where he can continue to do what he is doing without having to correct anything.

He's under contract, dumb ass.