Series Thread: 1) Toronto Raptors vs 4) Cleveland Cavs

[Heatles84]

its good stuff but im too cheap to spend damn near 20 bucks on 2 drinks.

Wiggy, do you have Parkinson's? Reason I ask is that I'm assuming you made your avi.

 

[msgkings322]

I get a large and it's usually 7 and change.

It's just money.

Yeah but it's actual money not vcash. You may be too far down the rabbit hole and are confusing them.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Wiggy, do you have Parkinson's? Reason I ask is that I'm assuming you made your avi.

made it rather drunk late last night/early this AM in paint lol

 

[Heatles84]

made it rather drunk late last night/early this AM in paint lol

I won't have the same argument with you that we've had in the past about Arison/Gilbert.....it's tiring and gets us nowhere.

However, that makes a lot of sense. Carry on.

 

[Battlelyon]

 

[Heatles84]

ESPN just showed no active nba player has multiple playoff buzzer beaters.

Except LeBron. He has 5.

As much as I dislike Lebron, I've always found the narrative that he wasn't clutch very tiring.

Having said that, he's having himself quite the playoffs. His worst game thus far was a triple double. That's not too shabby.

Still hope he gets his ass kicked in the ECF/Finals.

 

[msgkings322]

As much as I dislike Lebron, I've always found the narrative that he wasn't clutch very tiring.

Having said that, he's having himself quite the playoffs. His worst game thus far was a triple double. That's not too shabby.

Still hope he gets his ass kicked in the ECF/Finals.

Like most greats he gets taken for granted for sure, no one really comes close to him in the playoffs, but we just assume it.

 

[Scapegoat]

I understand too.

But that is also case and point why it is so stupid to use team accomplishments to define individual greatness.

Durant is the second best player in the NBA. Curry is top 5. Klay and Dray are both easily better than Love. Yet, somehow this genius thinks it makes LeBron look bad of his group of misfits can't beat them?

That is a ridiculous position to take. A couple years ago, there were a few on here who used Finals record as a way to knock LeBron down a peg or two in all time great rankings. It is just so obvious to anybody with an ounce of sense that it isn't a valid way to measure him vs. other all time greats. What he is doing now is completely unprecedented.

?

 

[Heatles84]

Like most greats he gets taken for granted for sure, no one really comes close to him in the playoffs, but we just assume it.

Agreed. Now, I'm not willing to put him past MJ as GOAT. But for those that argue against why he's not the best player in the league currently, I'm just not seeing what they're seeing. Lebron is clearly #1, everyone else is fighting for #2.

 

[msgkings322]

Agreed. Now, I'm not willing to put him past MJ as GOAT. But for those that argue against why he's not the best player in the league currently, I'm just not seeing what they're seeing. Lebron is clearly #1, everyone else is fighting for #2.

Yep, he hasn't passed MJ and may never but he's getting closer and still looks capable of adding to his resume. If he passes MJ in all the categories (points, rebounds, assists, etc) and only 6-0 remains for Jordan, it will be hard to say Jordan is definitely better.

 

[tlance]

I am sure DeRozan is gone after this season. He was unhappy he was benched at the end of the game, and instead of trying to fix that and work harder and correct the issue, he will demand a trade to go somewhere else where he can continue to do what he is doing without having to correct anything.

Way to overreact to one quarter of play.

DeRozan was a low end MVP candidate all season. Yet, you are assuming he is unhappy because of 1 game? I think Casey should have gone back to him at some point, but he was playing like crap. I am sure he would tell you that also.

 

[tlance]

?

Not you.

I quoted you, but the "genius" I was referring to is @DorianRo

 

[Heatles84]

Yep, he hasn't passed MJ and may never but he's getting closer and still looks capable of adding to his resume. If he passes MJ in all the categories (points, rebounds, assists, etc) and only 6-0 remains for Jordan, it will be hard to say Jordan is definitely better.

I think that's what's preventing me. It's not necessarily the 6-0. Sure, MJ lost in the 1st round against teams like the Bad Boy Pistons and Larry's Celtics; something Lebron never really had during his time in the East (maybe the Big 3 Celtics and that's it).

When I compare Lebron and MJ at the apex of their respective careers, I never saw MJ have a complete meltdown like Lebron had in 2011 (a big blemish on his resume) as well as 2010. He'll surpass MJ in all categories because he's played significantly longer than MJ (I think he's already surpassed him in games played and/or minutes played).

But in the 90's, you knew Jordan was winning. It didn't matter who was in his way, he was winning. I can never say the same about Lebron, albeit the landscape has changed a bit. But what separated Lebron from MJ for me is that Lebron's asked to run the offense because the team's he's on has the offense focused around him. This allows him to get more points and assists, whereas MJ was forced into the triangle and made it work. Lebron's the superior rebounder I won't question that. But when you play with Rodman for 3 years, you're not going to compile many boards.

The last thing that breaks the proverbial camel's back is that everyone focuses on Lebron's gaudy numbers (which aren't easy to come by). But what MJ was also known for was locking players down and being one of the best defenders in the league - something that can't really be measured and something that Lebron strayed away from when he left Miami. In Miami he was constantly in the convo for DPOY (something he's never achieved, Jordan has). And that, is why I can't put Lebron past MJ.

 

[msgkings322]

I think that's what's preventing me. It's not necessarily the 6-0. Sure, MJ lost in the 1st round against teams like the Bad Boy Pistons and Larry's Celtics; something Lebron never really had during his time in the East (maybe the Big 3 Celtics and that's it).

When I compare Lebron and MJ at the apex of their respective careers, I never saw MJ have a complete meltdown like Lebron had in 2011 (a big blemish on his resume) as well as 2010. He'll surpass MJ in all categories because he's played significantly longer than MJ (I think he's already surpassed him in games played and/or minutes played).

But in the 90's, you knew Jordan was winning. It didn't matter who was in his way, he was winning. I can never say the same about Lebron, albeit the landscape has changed a bit. But what separated Lebron from MJ for me is that Lebron's asked to run the offense because the team's he's on has the offense focused around him. This allows him to get more points and assists, whereas MJ was forced into the triangle and made it work. Lebron's the superior rebounder I won't question that. But when you play with Rodman for 3 years, you're not going to compile many boards.

The last thing that breaks the proverbial camel's back is that everyone focuses on Lebron's gaudy numbers (which aren't easy to come by). But what MJ was also known for was locking players down and being one of the best defenders in the league - something that can't really be measured and something that Lebron strayed away from when he left Miami. In Miami he was constantly in the convo for DPOY (something he's never achieved, Jordan has). And that, is why I can't put Lebron past MJ.

Yep, pretty much how I feel too. Do you have LeBron past everyone else though, like Magic and KAJ?

 

[tlance]

I think that's what's preventing me. It's not necessarily the 6-0. Sure, MJ lost in the 1st round against teams like the Bad Boy Pistons and Larry's Celtics; something Lebron never really had during his time in the East (maybe the Big 3 Celtics and that's it).

When I compare Lebron and MJ at the apex of their respective careers, I never saw MJ have a complete meltdown like Lebron had in 2011 (a big blemish on his resume) as well as 2010. He'll surpass MJ in all categories because he's played significantly longer than MJ (I think he's already surpassed him in games played and/or minutes played).

But in the 90's, you knew Jordan was winning. It didn't matter who was in his way, he was winning. I can never say the same about Lebron, albeit the landscape has changed a bit. But what separated Lebron from MJ for me is that Lebron's asked to run the offense because the team's he's on has the offense focused around him. This allows him to get more points and assists, whereas MJ was forced into the triangle and made it work. Lebron's the superior rebounder I won't question that. But when you play with Rodman for 3 years, you're not going to compile many boards.

The last thing that breaks the proverbial camel's back is that everyone focuses on Lebron's gaudy numbers (which aren't easy to come by). But what MJ was also known for was locking players down and being one of the best defenders in the league - something that can't really be measured and something that Lebron strayed away from when he left Miami. In Miami he was constantly in the convo for DPOY (something he's never achieved, Jordan has). And that, is why I can't put Lebron past MJ.

THe defensive arguments are interesting.

Here is my take:

Jordan was the better defender for longer.

But, the accolades are misleading. DPOY says you are a great defender, but it isn't the end all be all on the conversation between 2 players. LeBron could have won one at some point. It is a very subjective award.

i don't think it is as open and shut as the accolades make it appear, at least on defense. LeBron at his peak was every bit as good a defender as Jordan at his peak, IMO.

 

[OregonDucks]

Way to overreact to one quarter of play.

DeRozan was a low end MVP candidate all season. Yet, you are assuming he is unhappy because of 1 game? I think Casey should have gone back to him at some point, but he was playing like crap. I am sure he would tell you that also.

low end MVP's do not want to be sitting for most of the 4th quarter when it's a do or die game essentially. An already weak minded team, I am guessing this will crush his mentality on the team.

 

[tlance]

low end MVP's do not want to be sitting for most of the 4th quarter when it's a do or die game essentially. An already weak minded team, I am guessing this will crush his mentality on the team.

Nah.

He will be just fine next season.

Until he meets up with LeBron in the playoffs again.

 

[Scapegoat]

I think that's what's preventing me. It's not necessarily the 6-0. Sure, MJ lost in the 1st round against teams like the Bad Boy Pistons and Larry's Celtics; something Lebron never really had during his time in the East (maybe the Big 3 Celtics and that's it).

When I compare Lebron and MJ at the apex of their respective careers, I never saw MJ have a complete meltdown like Lebron had in 2011 (a big blemish on his resume) as well as 2010. He'll surpass MJ in all categories because he's played significantly longer than MJ (I think he's already surpassed him in games played and/or minutes played).

But in the 90's, you knew Jordan was winning. It didn't matter who was in his way, he was winning. I can never say the same about Lebron, albeit the landscape has changed a bit. But what separated Lebron from MJ for me is that Lebron's asked to run the offense because the team's he's on has the offense focused around him. This allows him to get more points and assists, whereas MJ was forced into the triangle and made it work. Lebron's the superior rebounder I won't question that. But when you play with Rodman for 3 years, you're not going to compile many boards.

The last thing that breaks the proverbial camel's back is that everyone focuses on Lebron's gaudy numbers (which aren't easy to come by). But what MJ was also known for was locking players down and being one of the best defenders in the league - something that can't really be measured and something that Lebron strayed away from when he left Miami. In Miami he was constantly in the convo for DPOY (something he's never achieved, Jordan has). And that, is why I can't put Lebron past MJ.

For me it's hard to compare the two. Different eras. When you get down to it neither had great supporting cast. Except in Miami. Pippin turned out to be vastly overrated. Grant was solid. Rodman was a one trick pony. Love and Irving were good. The big thing that stands out to me(possibly because it's a major issue for my team) is coaching. Jordan had a great system in place. Lebron has never had a great coach or system.
As far as a top 10 again it's hard because of eras. The game and the rules have changed so much.

 

[msgkings322]

For me it's hard to compare the two. Different eras. When you get down to it neither had great supporting cast. Except in Miami. Pippin turned out to be vastly overrated. Grant was solid. Rodman was a one trick pony. Love and Irving were good. The big thing that stands out to me(possibly because it's a major issue for my team) is coaching. Jordan had a great system in place. Lebron has never had a great coach or system.
As far as a top 10 again it's hard because of eras. The game and the rules have changed so much.

Well yeah, there's no scientific way to prove who was GOAT, the arguing is the fun part. But it's fun to compare even across eras. That said, you are correct and all you can say for sure is there have been a handful of transcendent greats through all the eras and MJ and LeBron are definitely among them.

 

[Scapegoat]

Well yeah, there's no scientific way to prove who was GOAT, the arguing is the fun part. But it's fun to compare even across eras. That said, you are correct and all you can say for sure is there have been a handful of transcendent greats through all the eras and MJ and LeBron are definitely among them.

The player that I didn't care for when he played but as time has gone on have grown a great amount of respect for is Larry Bird. Going back and watching some of his games in college and the NBA I'm amazed at the things he did and the way he saw the game before it happened.