Series Thread: 1) Golden State Warriors vs. 8) Los Angeles Clippers

[dtgold88]

If Butler is your #1 star you are likely a 2nd round playoff exit at best

And yes you are a pain in the ass to converse with but it doesn't bother me

Probably because you also talk in absolutes and extremes and are one of the ultimate do as I say not as I do posters.

Agree probably a 2nd round exit with Butler...but lucky to win a playoff series if Klay is your #1 IMO.

 

[dtgold88]

It is fine to have an alternative opinion.

But you won't budge a centimeter on your viewpoints and actual analysis either goes right over your head, or you chose to ignore it when it debunks your theories.

You are another of the ultimate do as I say not as I do posters.

Why would I need to budge? I've said this is my opinion and I'm not 100% sure. I've also been able to refute your logic with facts. said Butler could not be the #1 option on a good team, but he was the Bulls' best player on their 50-32 team in 2014-15.

Acknowledged it is possible Klay would be a better fit on Philly as they don't need another playmaker with Embid and Simmons. But there are teams where Butler is the better fit. And I would hope we agree it's more likely a team wins more with Butler as their #1 than if it were Klay

 

[tlance]

The 50-32 Bulls in 2014-15 were not good?

That was 4 years ago.

And while Butler was the best player on that team that year, it most defintely was not HIS team.

That was his breakout season and his first all star appearance. The leaders on that team were Joakim Noah ad Pao Gasol. And Derrick Rose was still the headliner in his 51 games played.

So no. I don't think Butler could lead a good team (an actual contender) as the focal point.

 

[tlance]

You are the other ultimate do as I say not as I do posters.

Why would I need to budge? I've said this is my opinion and I'm not 100% sure. I've also been able to refute your logic with facts. said Butler could not be the #1 option on a good team, but he was the Bulls' best player on their 50-32 team in 2014-15.

Nope.

See post below.

 

[CitySushi]

Probably because you also talk in absolutes and extremes and are one of the ultimate do as I say not as I do posters.

Agree probably a 2nd round exit with Butler...but lucky to win a playoff series if Klay is your #1 IMO.

Being completely objective, if you placed Klay Thompson on that 14-15 Bulls team, they win just as many games. They had a really strong roster top to bottom. Pau averaged 18.5 and 11.8 that year. Derrick Rose averaged 17.7 a game and played in 51 games. Joakim Noah was fresh off of his defensive player of the year award and still one of the best defenders in the NBA at that time. On the bench they had really solid role players in Taj Gibson, Nikola Mirotic, Mike Dunleavy, Aaron Brooks and Kirk Hinrich. That was a really deep team and really good overall as a whole.

 

[msgkings322]

Probably because you also talk in absolutes and extremes and are one of the ultimate do as I say not as I do posters.

Agree probably a 2nd round exit with Butler...but lucky to win a playoff series if Klay is your #1 IMO.

No one would disagree with you on Klay (but you'll find a way)

As far as your usual ad hominem, don't you know by now it doesn't work on me?

 

[tlance]

You are another of the ultimate do as I say not as I do posters.

Why would I need to budge? I've said this is my opinion and I'm not 100% sure. I've also been able to refute your logic with facts. said Butler could not be the #1 option on a good team, but he was the Bulls' best player on their 50-32 team in 2014-15.

Acknowledged it is possible Klay would be a better fit on Philly as they don't need another playmaker with Embid and Simmons. But there are teams where Butler is the better fit. And I would hope we agree it's more likely a team wins more with Butler as their #1 than if it were Klay

And you have never offered actual analysis.

You post a rogue stat that supports your side and then act like it is proof you are right.

 

[CitySushi]

You are another of the ultimate do as I say not as I do posters.

Why would I need to budge? I've said this is my opinion and I'm not 100% sure. I've also been able to refute your logic with facts. said Butler could not be the #1 option on a good team, but he was the Bulls' best player on their 50-32 team in 2014-15.

Acknowledged it is possible Klay would be a better fit on Philly as they don't need another playmaker with Embid and Simmons. But there are teams where Butler is the better fit. And I would hope we agree it's more likely a team wins more with Butler as their #1 than if it were Klay

I think it all depends on team make up to be honest.

#fitmatters

 

[Shanemansj13]

Probably because you also talk in absolutes and extremes and are one of the ultimate do as I say not as I do posters.

Agree probably a 2nd round exit with Butler...but lucky to win a playoff series if Klay is your #1 IMO.

That's the thing, this is just your opinion. You have nothing to support this. We have support for what he know from Butler as a #1. Most likely every team is going to have two max stars if they want to compete, I would rather have Klay as the best #2 then Butler as my #1 bc of reasons I have mentioned before. The main one being fit. Butler is a ball dominant player and he would not fit well next say Sexton and Love imo. That is just from the Cavs perspective, he could work out for other teams or playoff fringe teams.

 

[dtgold88]

Being completely objective, if you placed Klay Thompson on that 14-15 Bulls team, they win just as many games. They had a really strong roster top to bottom. Pau averaged 18.5 and 11.8 that year. Derrick Rose averaged 17.7 a game and played in 51 games. Joakim Noah was fresh off of his defensive player of the year award and still one of the best defenders in the NBA at that time. On the bench they had really solid role players in Taj Gibson, Nikola Mirotic, Mike Dunleavy, Aaron Brooks and Kirk Hinrich. That was a really deep team and really good overall as a whole.

All good points, but Butler was the best player on the team and he said no team is good with Butler as their best player. Klay on that team is not their best player.

 

[dtgold88]

I think it all depends on team make up to be honest.

#fitmatters

This is fair, but I've seen a good team with Butler as the #1. Still not something we've seen with Klay. doesn't mean he can't but he hasn't. Butler has.

 

[CitySushi]

All good points, but Butler was the best player on the team and he said no team is good with Butler as their best player. Klay on that team is not their best player.

But again, you're punishing a guy for something that isn't quantifiable. How do you justify that?

 

[dtgold88]

That was 4 years ago.

And while Butler was the best player on that team that year, it most defintely was not HIS team.

That was his breakout season and his first all star appearance. The leaders on that team were Joakim Noah ad Pao Gasol. And Derrick Rose was still the headliner in his 51 games played.

So no. I don't think Butler could lead a good team (an actual contender) as the focal point.

You said he cannot be the best player on a good team. You were wrong. Now he must be the vocal leader too (which you don't know if he was or was not)? And, hey, let's add another caveat and say a contender. Can you make up the rules and stick to them?

That Bulls' team gave the Cavs their best battle until the Finals.

 

[Shanemansj13]

You could actually argue the one year the Bulls finally won a playoff series he wasn't the clear #1. DRose and Pau both were just as good.

 

[dtgold88]

But again, you're punishing a guy for something that isn't quantifiable. How do you justify that?

I'm not punishing him, I've just said he's never done it. Butler has. Might Klay? Maybe. But we don't know.

 

[dtgold88]

You could actually argue the one year the Bulls finally won a playoff series he wasn't the clear #1. DRose and Pau both were just as good.

You could but after watching the series against us it seemed to me that Butler was their best player. I've never seen Klay play on a team where he was in the discussion as the team's best player.

 

[CitySushi]

I'm not punishing him, I've just said he's never done it. Butler has. Might Klay? Maybe. But we don't know.

Well all we're doing is playing the what if game when it comes to Klay. But you're dealing just as much in absolutes with saying Klay can't be on a winning team as a #1.

Take this years Clippers for example. They won 48 games. If you put Klay on that team right now, you don't think they win just as many games, if not more? He'd clearly be their best player.

Team make up is important. Saying Klay can't do something only because he's never been in a position to do it is a pretty thin argument, IMO.

 

[dtgold88]

That's the thing, this is just your opinion. You have nothing to support this. We have support for what he know from Butler as a #1. Most likely every team is going to have two max stars if they want to compete, I would rather have Klay as the best #2 then Butler as my #1 bc of reasons I have mentioned before. The main one being fit. Butler is a ball dominant player and he would not fit well next say Sexton and Love imo. That is just from the Cavs perspective, he could work out for other teams or playoff fringe teams.

Yeah...that's why I said IMO. and I do have something to support it. I've seen Butler win a playoff series as the best player (at worst, in discussion as best player). I've never seen Klay do it.

Kyrie's kind of ball dominant and they made it work with Lebron and Love.

 

[Shanemansj13]

You said he cannot be the best player on a good team. You were wrong. Now he must be the vocal leader too (which you don't know if he was or was not)? And, hey, let's add another caveat and say a contender. Can you make up the rules and stick to them?

That Bulls' team gave the Cavs their best battle until the Finals.

They were definitely a great defensive team. Without that stupid banked 3 by DRose that still pisses me off the Cavs win 4-1. Lucky shit lol

 

[dtgold88]

Well all we're doing is playing the what if game when it comes to Klay. But you're dealing just as much in absolutes with saying Klay can't be on a winning team as a #1.

Take this years Clippers for example. They won 48 games. If you put Klay on that team right now, you don't think they win just as many games, if not more? He'd clearly be their best player.

Team make up is important. Saying Klay can't do something only because he's never been in a position to do it is a pretty thin argument, IMO.

But I always say IMO and we cannot be sure. Not absolute or extreme like many I'm talking to.

And even though I'm told I never listen to other arguments (ironically, by someone who wont listen to the other side) I think that's an excellent argument you used with the Clippers. Way he's playing I think Lou might be a better player on that team (as he's also a playmaker for others, and Beverly gives them the D Klay would offer), but a case could be made for Klay.