Series Thread: 1) Golden State Warriors vs. 8) Los Angeles Clippers

[CitySushi]

I mean you are looking at narrowly and not looking at the actual facts that aurround the situation.

If you KNEW with a high level of certainty that you could make at least 4/140, or up to 5/188, 4/110 is not a serious offer that either side would expect to be taken seriously.

If you are looking at it in a vacuum- sure- they offered as much as they could at the time- but make no mistake, neither side saw that as a credible option with any type of likelihood of success.

Its like the LeBron stuff- why did he go year to year (in addition to flexibility)? to get bigger raises each year. To look at it narrowly you totally miss what is actually going on.

Also you have to factor in Jimmy Butler's history with his contracts. He was offered like a 44M extension by the Bulls coming off his rookie deal and he declined it. He took the QO and bet on himself and turned that into a 90M max deal. Same situation applies in this instance. He was willing to bet on himself again and figured that the deal for 110 was below his market value. It's not what most people might have done, but it's what Jimmy's done in the past and makes total sense that he'd do it again. That's why Minny's offer was never going to be real unless it was a true max offer.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Also you have to factor in Jimmy Butler's history with his contracts. He was offered like a 44M extension by the Bulls coming off his rookie deal and he declined it. He took the QO and bet on himself and turned that into a 90M max deal. Same situation applies in this instance. He was willing to bet on himself again and figured that the deal for 110 was below his market value. It's not what most people might have done, but it's what Jimmy's done in the past and makes total sense that he'd do it again. That's why Minny's offer was never going to be real unless it was a true max offer.

and, even with my hate for him, in fairness to Jimmy, with Lowry making 33M a year and Conley 35M a year, (and even Love at 30M per year), Butler is without a doubt going to get significantly more than 27 per on the open market.

 

[dtgold88]

I mean you are looking at narrowly and not looking at the actual facts that aurround the situation.

If you KNEW with a high level of certainty that you could make at least 4/140, or up to 5/188, 4/110 is not a serious offer that either side would expect to be taken seriously.

If you are looking at it in a vacuum- sure- they offered as much as they could at the time- but make no mistake, neither side saw that as a credible option with any type of likelihood of success.

Its like the LeBron stuff- why did he go year to year (in addition to flexibility)? to get bigger raises each year. To look at it narrowly you totally miss what is actually going on.

OK, but it was the only offer they could make. How do you know the guy didn't want to take the money and not risk injury? I doubt he would, but shouldn't they make the offer and let him vote?

 

[dtgold88]

It's funny because he could be on his way out of Philly next season now that they picked up Tobias. Tobias is just a better fit for them IMO. Plus, it seems he's easier to get along with. Your thoughts?

I think this seems to be the perception but really hard for us to know without ever talking to either player or hearing the team offer an opinion (which they wouldn't anyway).

 

[dtgold88]

and LeBron how he did his--- you wait, you get a ton more money.

the Twolves, Butler, no one, thought that the 4 years/110 was a credible offer that Butler might actually take. Was never going to happen. If the Twolves told him- dont worry- we are giving you 5/188 right now hed in fucking Minnesota happy as a clam ill guarantee you.

Even if true, you claim Minnesota got rid of him which is not true. All we know is he was offered as much as they could and he turned it down. The rest is you guessing and doing so with an agenda.

 

[dtgold88]

Also you have to factor in Jimmy Butler's history with his contracts. He was offered like a 44M extension by the Bulls coming off his rookie deal and he declined it. He took the QO and bet on himself and turned that into a 90M max deal. Same situation applies in this instance. He was willing to bet on himself again and figured that the deal for 110 was below his market value. It's not what most people might have done, but it's what Jimmy's done in the past and makes total sense that he'd do it again. That's why Minny's offer was never going to be real unless it was a true max offer.

No disagreement......but wiggy claimed Minnesota wanted no part of him which is clearly false. Claims the same for Philly and we have no clue one way or the other on that yet.

 

[dtgold88]

and, even with my hate for him, in fairness to Jimmy, with Lowry making 33M a year and Conley 35M a year, (and even Love at 30M per year), Butler is without a doubt going to get significantly more than 27 per on the open market.

Of course, but how does this mean Minnesota didn't want him?

 

[WiggyRuss]

Even if true, you claim Minnesota got rid of him which is not true. All we know is he was offered as much as they could and he turned it down. The rest is you guessing and doing so with an agenda.

guessing my ass. Its common sense

are you gonna sign a 1 year 50k contract if in 1 year you are pretty much assured you will get a 2 year 120k contract?

the contract that minnesota offered him was one that Minnesota knew he would never accept, that Butler would never accept- and both partiees knew it. It was an effort to save face for the fans more so than a serious offer actually meant to keep Butler.

If they actually had any intention of keeping him long term and paying him more than what Harrison Barnes and Hassan Whiteside are making they would have expressed theier intention of giving him the 5 year 188M dollar deal that they never had any intention of giving him.

 

[dtgold88]

guessing my ass. Its common sense

are you gonna sign a 1 year 50k contract if in 1 year you are pretty much assured you will get a 2 year 120k contract?

the contract that minnesota offered him was one that Minnesota knew he would never accept, that Butler would never accept- and both partiees knew it. It was an effort to save face for the fans more so than a serious offer actually meant to keep Butler.

If they actually had any intention of keeping him long term and paying him more than what Harrison Barnes and Hassan Whiteside are making they would have expressed theier intention of giving him the 5 year 188M dollar deal that they never had any intention of giving him.

So they needed to make an offer they are not allowed to make per the CBA rules?

 

[tlance]

wow....if this is only about their game it's Butler all day. Agree he cannot carry a title contender, but he could carry a conference finals contender, and has. Could Klay? Not so sure but my opinion is no chance.

You are impossible to talk if there is even a slight disagreement. You know that?

It is all about their style of play. One is very easy for other good players to play with, the other isn't. That meaning should have been very clear from the post you quoted. That is abundantly clear from their playing styles and their track records.

The reason just about everybody except you is taking Klay over Butler is fit. Klay's game fits ideally with any other star.

 

[WiggyRuss]

So they needed to make an offer they are not allowed to make per the CBA rules?

i think they needed to communicate that they intended to make a legitimate offer instead of giving him an offer that both sides knew would never be signed.

I mean, when they made that 4/110 offer -before they even sent it they knew it would never be signed because of how the CBA operates. You realize that right? And i mean, not like there is like a 5% chance he takes, they knew 100% this will never work and does not take into account the facts and circumstances of the situation

Butler, rightly, saw the writing on the wall that with Wiggins and Towns under contract that the Twolves were never going to give him a 30% max deal when he was eligible for it and forced his way out to try and get to a situation where he might be able to get taht 5/188 offer--- always knowing, that as a back stop, there will, at the very very least, be multiple teams that will give him 4/140.

I wouldnt want to have to give Butler 4/140, but say, if the Lakers or Knicks or Mavericks or Nets, or whoever, strike out on the big guys- Klay, Kawhi, Durant, Kemba---- Butler will be the guy that those teams fall back on.

As much as i would be hesitant to give Butler 4/140, absent a major injury, htere is pretty much no chance he does not get it.

 

[CitySushi]

This is probably one of the best player breakdowns I can recall. I've been particularly hard on KD's lack of aggressiveness but his approach makes sense at least from a basketball perspective. This gives me hope that he's not checked out and that he's picking and choosing his spots. My only thing is he needs to pick those spots more often, especially when there's no momentum going for the team. There's a time to be selfish and yesterday in the 3rd and 4th quarter was when he needed to be. Either way as a basketball fan I appreciate his comments here.

 

[dtgold88]

You are impossible to talk if there is even a slight disagreement. You know that?

It is all about their style of play. One is very easy for other good players to play with, the other isn't. That meaning should have been very clear from the post you quoted. That is abundantly clear from their playing styles and their track records.

The reason just about everybody except you is taking Klay over Butler is fit. Klay's game fits ideally with any other star.

Impossible to talk to? what, you'd rather I talk in absolutes and extremes as opposed to offering an opinion and expressing it as such? Would you prefer I go with your approach and pretend I know everything and try and talk down to you?

No doubt Klay's game might fit better with many other stars, because Butler can be the star.

 

[msgkings322]

Impossible to talk to? what, you'd rather I talk in absolutes and extremes as opposed to offering an opinion and expressing it as such? Would you prefer I go with your approach and pretend I know everything and try and talk down to you?

No doubt Klay's game might fit better with many other stars, because Butler can be the star.

If Butler is your #1 star you are likely a 2nd round playoff exit at best

And yes you are a pain in the ass to converse with but it doesn't bother me

 

[tlance]

I honestly haven't heard bad things in Philly

Could it be he just doesn't like TT

I think he has been a pretty good soldier for the most part in Philly. If his teammates are competing and he is winning I think he is generally pretty solid in the locker room.

My issue with Butler isn't as much about the drama as it is about how well his game fits with other star players. I love his defense, although that will surely decline by the end of his next contract. I just don't love that he is a ball dominant player who is just okay, not great in the catch and shoot game.

Because a guy like Klay would be amazing with the surrounding talent in Philly. It is rare that you see both Simmons and Butler have big games because they almost have to take turns. Klay's shooting would open up driving lanes for Simmons and it would be a more symbiotic relationship.

 

[tlance]

Impossible to talk to? what, you'd rather I talk in absolutes and extremes as opposed to offering an opinion and expressing it as such? Would you prefer I go with your approach and pretend I know everything and try and talk down to you?

No doubt Klay's game might fit better with many other stars, because Butler can be the star.

Not on a good team.

 

[dtgold88]

i think they needed to communicate that they intended to make a legitimate offer instead of giving him an offer that both sides knew would never be signed.

I mean, when they made that 4/110 offer -before they even sent it they knew it would never be signed because of how the CBA operates. You realize that right? And i mean, not like there is like a 5% chance he takes, they knew 100% this will never work and does not take into account the facts and circumstances of the situation

Butler, rightly, saw the writing on the wall that with Wiggins and Towns under contract that the Twolves were never going to give him a 30% max deal when he was eligible for it and forced his way out to try and get to a situation where he might be able to get taht 5/188 offer--- always knowing, that as a back stop, there will, at the very very least, be multiple teams that will give him 4/140.

I wouldnt want to have to give Butler 4/140, but say, if the Lakers or Knicks or Mavericks or Nets, or whoever, strike out on the big guys- Klay, Kawhi, Durant, Kemba---- Butler will be the guy that those teams fall back on.

As much as i would be hesitant to give Butler 4/140, absent a major injury, htere is pretty much no chance he does not get it.

communicating that is against the CBA and could result in a hefty fine and loss of picks. Now I don't doubt it happens, and might have happened here. But guess what....if it did they wouldn't let anyone know.

And, yes, I get they were almost assuredly aware he wouldn't accept, but they still had to make the offer and it's all they could offer.

Now do you get you have zero to support them not wanting him to be anything other than your opinion and it's made with a preconceived agenda against him? Nor do you know that Philly wont keep him?

 

[dtgold88]

Not on a good team.

The 50-32 Bulls in 2014-15 were not good?

 

[tlance]

Impossible to talk to? what, you'd rather I talk in absolutes and extremes as opposed to offering an opinion and expressing it as such? Would you prefer I go with your approach and pretend I know everything and try and talk down to you?

No doubt Klay's game might fit better with many other stars, because Butler can be the star.

It is fine to have an alternative opinion.

But you won't budge a centimeter on your viewpoints and actual analysis either goes right over your head, or you chose to ignore it when it debunks your theories.

 

[MizzouFalcon]

All of this is a sign that the Clippers are about to be the new powerhouse of the NBA.