Ben Simmons-Joel Embiid Duo

[ericd7633]

If the Sixers can't draft better, they aren't even moving out of the dust bin. They've drafted in the high lottery how many years in a row and essentially have 1 unproven but easy #1 in Simmons and a bunch of guys they still have no clue about? They seem to be finding middle of the road draft picks in the high lottery.

The more the Sixers flounder, the less likely it will be for them to draw any top free agents either.

They've actually drafted fine IMO

2013: Drafted Noel #6 overall, drafted MCW #11 (traded for what could be a top 5-10 pick next year)
2014: Drafted Embiid #3 overall - got unlucky with him getting hurt. Drafted Saric #12 overall - looks like a solid piece for a late lottery pick.
2015: Drafted Okafor #3 overall - averaged 17 and 7 as a rookie
2016: Drafted Simmons #1 overall, and two Euro guys late in the 1st round.

The problem is that essentially only 2 guys have played from the last 3 draft(2013-2015), which is a great thing IMO. It got Simmons for this year, and hopefully the Lakers don't suck bad enough to have another top 3 pick, and the Sixers can swap with the Kings in 2017 and have their first rounder for 2018. Predicting free agency is such a crap shoot. Who would have predicted 4 years ago that Kevin Durant would have signed with the Warriors? 4 years ago they were coming off a season where they won just 35% of their games, and the Thunder just came off a Finals appearance.

The Sixers have a ton of flexibility and a ton of assets, something they didn't have when Hinkie took over. I've said it before, I don't think people realize how bad the Sixers were when Hinkie took over from a roster standpoint and asset standpoint. It was brutal.

 

[flyerhawk]

They've actually drafted fine IMO

2013: Drafted Noel #6 overall, drafted MCW #11 (traded for what could be a top 5-10 pick next year)
2014: Drafted Embiid #3 overall - got unlucky with him getting hurt. Drafted Saric #12 overall - looks like a solid piece for a late lottery pick.
2015: Drafted Okafor #3 overall - averaged 17 and 7 as a rookie
2016: Drafted Simmons #1 overall, and two Euro guys late in the 1st round.

2013 was a pretty terrible draft. 2014 was meh as well and the Sixers were stuck choosing between a high risk/high reward guy with Embiid or a bunch of lower ceiling guys. 2015 is where you can start to ask questions. Okafor was a perfectly fine pick on its own. But given the makeup of the team, he really wasn't a great fit. 2016 was pretty much a no brainer.

 

[knowyourenemy]

They've actually drafted fine IMO

2013: Drafted Noel #6 overall, drafted MCW #11 (traded for what could be a top 5-10 pick next year)
2014: Drafted Embiid #3 overall - got unlucky with him getting hurt. Drafted Saric #12 overall - looks like a solid piece for a late lottery pick.
2015: Drafted Okafor #3 overall - averaged 17 and 7 as a rookie
2016: Drafted Simmons #1 overall, and two Euro guys late in the 1st round.

The problem is that essentially only 2 guys have played from the last 3 draft(2013-2015), which is a great thing IMO. It got Simmons for this year, and hopefully the Lakers don't suck bad enough to have another top 3 pick, and the Sixers can swap with the Kings in 2017 and have their first rounder for 2018. Predicting free agency is such a crap shoot. Who would have predicted 4 years ago that Kevin Durant would have signed with the Warriors? 4 years ago they were coming off a season where they won just 35% of their games, and the Thunder just came off a Finals appearance.

The Sixers have a ton of flexibility and a ton of assets, something they didn't have when Hinkie took over. I've said it before, I don't think people realize how bad the Sixers were when Hinkie took over from a roster standpoint and asset standpoint. It was brutal.

Agreed generally. On some of those picks:

1. Noel was not drafted by the 76ers. He was drafted by the Pelicans and traded to Philadelphia for Jrue Holiday and Pierre Jackson, along with a 2014 draft pick.
2. That 2014 draft pick was used to draft Elfrid Payton, who was in turn traded to Orlando in exchange for Dario Saric and a return, essentially, of all 2017 first round draft rights given away in the Andrew Bynum trade.
3. As you noted, MCW was later traded for what will hopefully be a top 10 pick.

So, while I agree with flyerhawk that the 76ers could have utilized those draft picks better (Right now, how great would it be to have C.J. McCollum instead of Noel or Zach LaVine instead of Saric, etc.), the maneuvers to move Holiday for two first round picks and Elfrid Payton for what I'll call one and a half first round picks was brilliant. We could go on and on about which players should have been taken over the ones that they have.

I'll say this -- the drafting wasn't poor. It was designed to take the best and most valuable player available and figure things out later. Now, they have to figure things out. It won't be easy but they have a lot of options as far as what they will be able to do.

 

[knowyourenemy]

2013 was a pretty terrible draft. 2014 was meh as well and the Sixers were stuck choosing between a high risk/high reward guy with Embiid or a bunch of lower ceiling guys. 2015 is where you can start to ask questions. Okafor was a perfectly fine pick on its own. But given the makeup of the team, he really wasn't a great fit. 2016 was pretty much a no brainer.

Who do you think would have been a better pick in 2015? Porzingis would fit better than Okafor but wouldn't fix the problem of having too many bigs.

 

[flyerhawk]

Who do you think would have been a better pick in 2015? Porzingis would fit better than Okafor but wouldn't fix the problem of having too many bigs.

Well honestly I think that Mudiay was the better pick for them. IMO, Hinkie may still be with the team if he drafted Mudiay. That doesn't mean he will be the better player but at some point you have to build your team and when you can't get top talent from FA, you need to build your team through the draft.

 

[shopson67]

They've actually drafted fine IMO

2013: Drafted Noel #6 overall, drafted MCW #11 (traded for what could be a top 5-10 pick next year)
2014: Drafted Embiid #3 overall - got unlucky with him getting hurt. Drafted Saric #12 overall - looks like a solid piece for a late lottery pick.
2015: Drafted Okafor #3 overall - averaged 17 and 7 as a rookie
2016: Drafted Simmons #1 overall, and two Euro guys late in the 1st round.

The problem is that essentially only 2 guys have played from the last 3 draft(2013-2015), which is a great thing IMO. It got Simmons for this year, and hopefully the Lakers don't suck bad enough to have another top 3 pick, and the Sixers can swap with the Kings in 2017 and have their first rounder for 2018. Predicting free agency is such a crap shoot. Who would have predicted 4 years ago that Kevin Durant would have signed with the Warriors? 4 years ago they were coming off a season where they won just 35% of their games, and the Thunder just came off a Finals appearance.

The Sixers have a ton of flexibility and a ton of assets, something they didn't have when Hinkie took over. I've said it before, I don't think people realize how bad the Sixers were when Hinkie took over from a roster standpoint and asset standpoint. It was brutal.

They still have no clue what they got from the 2014 draft. They've lost 2 years of Embiid's rookie contract without him setting foot on the court. Despite Okafor's offensive stats, the Sixers played better with him off the court as he is a BIG negative defensively. Plus, all 5 guys listed play in the front court, so only 2-3 of them will make a big enough impact as starters. They badly need to trade off 1-2 of these players (if they even end up being tradeable; Embiid?).

Before this run of lottery picks, the '11/'12 Sixers were above .500 (35-31) and lost in the second round of the playoffs. 3rd year player (and all-star) Jrue Holiday leading a team with Andre Iguodala, Thaddeus Young, 2nd year player Evan Turner, and rookie Nikola Vucevic. Do you really think they have made progress? The only player of those lottery picks seemingly guaranteed for all-star contention would be Simmons.

The decline started in '12/'13, with some bad moves, such as trading Iggy in the Bynum trade, then making that worse by trading away Vucevic.

 

[eaglesnut]

Well honestly I think that Mudiay was the better pick for them. IMO, Hinkie may still be with the team if he drafted Mudiay. That doesn't mean he will be the better player but at some point you have to build your team and when you can't get top talent from FA, you need to build your team through the draft.

Yeah, next year.

 

[shopson67]

That's unfortunate. The Henderson contract is a great deal for the 76ers. I get that paying him $9 million per year sort of shocks the conscience because he's only Gerald Henderson . . . but it's nothing compared to what some other players received this offseason, both in length of contract and annual salary.

$9M for Henderson is reasonable. However, I don't really see how they are going to draw anyone much better than that in free agency without some MAJOR steps forward.

 

[shopson67]

Yeah, next year.

...or the year after, or the year after that, or....

 

[eaglesnut]

They still have no clue what they got from the 2014 draft. They've lost 2 years of Embiid's rookie contract without him setting foot on the court. Despite Okafor's offensive stats, the Sixers played better with him off the court as he is a BIG negative defensively. Plus, all 5 guys listed play in the front court, so only 2-3 of them will make a big enough impact as starters. They badly need to trade off 1-2 of these players (if they even end up being tradeable; Embiid?).

Before this run of lottery picks, the '11/'12 Sixers were above .500 (35-31) and lost in the second round of the playoffs. 3rd year player (and all-star) Jrue Holiday leading a team with Andre Iguodala, Thaddeus Young, 2nd year player Evan Turner, and rookie Nikola Vucevic. Do you really think they have made progress? The only player of those lottery picks seemingly guaranteed for all-star contention would be Simmons.

The decline started in '12/'13, with some bad moves, such as trading Iggy in the Bynum trade, then making that worse by trading away Vucevic.

The Bynum trade destroyed the team to ruins. Those are the ruins this process came from. You are using the wrong starting point.

 

[eaglesnut]

...or the year after, or the year after that, or....

No, next year is fine. And the year after that we'll add another lottery pick to a fast rising playoff team.

 

[flyerhawk]

$9M for Henderson is reasonable. However, I don't really see how they are going to draw anyone much better than that in free agency without some MAJOR steps forward.

That's the problem. Even if Ben Simmons is the next Magic Johnson that alone makes the Sixers the Pelicans unless one of Embiid/Saric/Okafor turn into a stud. They need another stud, preferably in the backcourt, to be a truly dangerous team.

 

[ericd7633]

Agreed generally. On some of those picks:

1. Noel was not drafted by the 76ers. He was drafted by the Pelicans and traded to Philadelphia for Jrue Holiday and Pierre Jackson, along with a 2014 draft pick.
2. That 2014 draft pick was used to draft Elfrid Payton, who was in turn traded to Orlando in exchange for Dario Saric and a return, essentially, of all 2017 first round draft rights given away in the Andrew Bynum trade.
3. As you noted, MCW was later traded for what will hopefully be a top 10 pick.

So, while I agree with flyerhawk that the 76ers could have utilized those draft picks better (Right now, how great would it be to have C.J. McCollum instead of Noel or Zach LaVine instead of Saric, etc.), the maneuvers to move Holiday for two first round picks and Elfrid Payton for what I'll call one and a half first round picks was brilliant. We could go on and on about which players should have been taken over the ones that they have.

I'll say this -- the drafting wasn't poor. It was designed to take the best and most valuable player available and figure things out later. Now, they have to figure things out. It won't be easy but they have a lot of options as far as what they will be able to do.

I'm aware of the transactions for those trades. Was just stating what the Sixers got in the end in regards to Noel, Saric etc...

I thought they drafted well. We'll see what Saric and Embiid turn into if anything. I will say I've watched Saric in the Olympics and I have been impressed with him. He has great passing ability. Paired up with Simmons could be a huge home run.

 

[ericd7633]

They still have no clue what they got from the 2014 draft. They've lost 2 years of Embiid's rookie contract without him setting foot on the court. Despite Okafor's offensive stats, the Sixers played better with him off the court as he is a BIG negative defensively. Plus, all 5 guys listed play in the front court, so only 2-3 of them will make a big enough impact as starters. They badly need to trade off 1-2 of these players (if they even end up being tradeable; Embiid?).

Before this run of lottery picks, the '11/'12 Sixers were above .500 (35-31) and lost in the second round of the playoffs. 3rd year player (and all-star) Jrue Holiday leading a team with Andre Iguodala, Thaddeus Young, 2nd year player Evan Turner, and rookie Nikola Vucevic. Do you really think they have made progress? The only player of those lottery picks seemingly guaranteed for all-star contention would be Simmons.

The decline started in '12/'13, with some bad moves, such as trading Iggy in the Bynum trade, then making that worse by trading away Vucevic.

The WORST thing to happen to the Sixers was making the 2nd round of the playoffs in 2012. It was a fluke they even made it there anyways because that's when D Rose tore his ACL in the playoffs. Management then went out and traded Iggy, Harkless and Vucevic and a future first round pick for literally nothing(Bynum) because they thought they were that piece away from being a contender when they weren't. All of this happened before Hinkle took over so he walked into a shitty situation with little roster flexibility and no future assets. You aren't going to win shit with Jrue, Turner and Young as your core 3 players. You'll be good enough to not have a top 10 pick but that's about it.

Yes, they've made a ton of progress IMO. They rebuilt it from scratch because hovering around .500 every year is the absolute worst. As a fan I can stomach the last couple years at least knowing there's a plan.

 

[shopson67]

The WORST thing to happen to the Sixers was making the 2nd round of the playoffs in 2012. It was a fluke they even made it there anyways because that's when D Rose tore his ACL in the playoffs. Management then went out and traded Iggy, Harkless and Vucevic and a future first round pick for literally nothing(Bynum) because they thought they were that piece away from being a contender when they weren't. All of this happened before Hinkle took over so he walked into a shitty situation with little roster flexibility and no future assets. You aren't going to win shit with Jrue, Turner and Young as your core 3 players. You'll be good enough to not have a top 10 pick but that's about it.

Yes, they've made a ton of progress IMO. They rebuilt it from scratch because hovering around .500 every year is the absolute worst. As a fan I can stomach the last couple years at least knowing there's a plan.

Seems tough to support some of the moves when they traded Jrue for the Noel pick and traded MCW away for another future pick, yet are still looking for a PG, ironically danging Noel.

That Bynum trade was ridiculously stupid on the Sixers part. If they keep Iggy and Vucevic, they likely stay in the playoffs IMO. Maybe they don't dump Jrue at the draft either.

Arguing the starting point is a little silly. 11/12 was a playoff team, and the team has taken a nose dive ever since with poor trades and an obsession with draft picks (and stockpiling like assets).

 

[ericd7633]

Seems tough to support some of the moves when they traded Jrue for the Noel pick and traded MCW away for another future pick, yet are still looking for a PG, ironically danging Noel.

That Bynum trade was ridiculously stupid on the Sixers part. If they keep Iggy and Vucevic, they likely stay in the playoffs IMO. Maybe they don't dump Jrue at the draft either.

Arguing the starting point is a little silly. 11/12 was a playoff team, and the team has taken a nose dive ever since with poor trades and an obsession with draft picks (and stockpiling like assets).

Again, the Bynum trade was done prior to Hinkie taking over. The 11/12 team was a playoff team...as the 8 seed. Flukily getting to the 2nd round made them trade away all those assets for Bynum. When Hinkle took over they were a bad team with no assets(except Jrue). You saw how the 12/13 team was with Jrue, turner and Young as the core. They sucked ass. They won 34 games. There was nothing to build off of. The Bynum trade completely fucked everything up.

Also MCW is a back up PG in this league. Flipping him for a top 10 pick is an absolute no brainer.

 

[CodeBreaker]

Simmons can be Magic, and Embiid can be Kareem.

 

[shopson67]

Again, the Bynum trade was done prior to Hinkie taking over. The 11/12 team was a playoff team...as the 8 seed. Flukily getting to the 2nd round made them trade away all those assets for Bynum. When Hinkle took over they were a bad team with no assets(except Jrue). You saw how the 12/13 team was with Jrue, turner and Young as the core. They sucked ass. They won 34 games. There was nothing to build off of. The Bynum trade completely fucked everything up.

Also MCW is a back up PG in this league. Flipping him for a top 10 pick is an absolute no brainer.

There's no justifying that Bynum trade, 2nd round playoff team or not. It's the exact reason I don't want the Lakers trying to cut corners by trading young building blocks for a veteran. Sign the vets in free agency and let the building blocks grow. Giving up that much for an injury history like Bynum's is ridiculous. Loved him as a Laker, but he was never going to lead a team; he's a 3rd or 4th option. Iggy is a better player by himself, especially at that time with more career left in front of him.

Of course the 12/13 team fell apart. They gave away their veteran leader, a center for the future, and multiple draft picks (and whatever else), all for a player that never got on the floor for the team. They got nothing from the draft, as they included their #1 in the Bynum trade. They also did horribly in free agency, letting Lou Williams leave while bringing in Kwame Brown, Nick Young, Royal Ivey, and the ghost of JRich (who played less than a half a season before missing the next year and half due to injury).

As far as MCW, he did win rookie of the year, but wouldn't have been relied upon had they not traded away Jrue. They could've kept their own pick and drafted Steven Adams (with Jrue) instead of MCW and trading Jrue for Noel.

Of course, it's easier looking back than making the moves then, but some of these moves are glaring. Hinkie took over before the '13 draft, but has he really done much better? He's just been in position to draft high, but didn't maneuver to get pieces that fit together.

 

[shopson67]

Simmons can be Magic, and Embiid can be Kareem.

 

[knowyourenemy]

There's no justifying that Bynum trade, 2nd round playoff team or not. It's the exact reason I don't want the Lakers trying to cut corners by trading young building blocks for a veteran. Sign the vets in free agency and let the building blocks grow. Giving up that much for an injury history like Bynum's is ridiculous. Loved him as a Laker, but he was never going to lead a team; he's a 3rd or 4th option. Iggy is a better player by himself, especially at that time with more career left in front of him.

Of course the 12/13 team fell apart. They gave away their veteran leader, a center for the future, and multiple draft picks (and whatever else), all for a player that never got on the floor for the team. They got nothing from the draft, as they included their #1 in the Bynum trade. They also did horribly in free agency, letting Lou Williams leave while bringing in Kwame Brown, Nick Young, Royal Ivey, and the ghost of JRich (who played less than a half a season before missing the next year and half due to injury).

As far as MCW, he did win rookie of the year, but wouldn't have been relied upon had they not traded away Jrue. They could've kept their own pick and drafted Steven Adams (with Jrue) instead of MCW and trading Jrue for Noel.

Of course, it's easier looking back than making the moves then, but some of these moves are glaring. Hinkie took over before the '13 draft, but has he really done much better? He's just been in position to draft high, but didn't maneuver to get pieces that fit together.

Yes. The 16-17 Sixers are in significantly better shape than the team he inherited.