One of the worst rules in football

[BoiseMike19]

Annnnnnd, your solution/change?

Give the offender another crack at it?

Not, saying that is the ultimate answer. But it is a lot more damaging than if you are on the 37 and fumble it out of bounds across the 35. I mean, it's the rule, it's consistently enforced and statistically helps your team as much as it hurts them. All I was saying is it a huge price to pay.

 

[HuskerinBig10]

I am okay with the rule.

Turnovers are supposed to hurt. Turnovers are supposed to be bad. There is a reason why coaches do not like turnovers.

As the Oregon fan stated, hang on to the ball.

 

[Red_Alert]

Problem is you can't make them punt it at the 1 in a tight formation. Free punt is much different. There is no rush. No need to block. No pressure on the snapper and punter to get it off fast.

Why not? They fumbled it out of back of their own end-zone.

Yes. I know the difference between a punt on downs and a kick-off/punt following a safety.

That was entirely my point. Many times a safety is less damaging than having to punt from your own end zone. A lot of things can go wrong and the opponent is pretty sure to get fantastic field position.

 

[Red_Alert]

I am okay with the rule.

Turnovers are supposed to hurt. Turnovers are supposed to be bad. There is a reason why coaches do not like turnovers.

As the Oregon fan stated, hang on to the ball.

Bo Pleeny must have liked them. It's not like he ever got them fixed.

 

[ElTexan]

Everyone understands that, the current rules apply the same logic for both end zones. It's fair on both sides of the coin. You are arguing for a rule that hurts the defense whether it is head or tails.

Hurts the D? How? They did not take positive control of the ball after being pushed literally all the way across the field. It doesn't "hurt the D" anymore than anywhere else on the neutral playing field when the offense loses a fumble out the sideline, or for that matter makes an incomplete pass, etc.

 

[Red_Alert]

Hurts the D? How? They did not take positive control of the ball after being pushed literally all the way across the field. It doesn't "hurt the D" anymore than anywhere else on the neutral playing field when the offense loses a fumble out the sideline, or for that matter makes an incomplete pass, etc.

So your change would be to give the offense the ball back at the spot of the fumble?

 

[ElTexan]

So your change would be to give the offense the ball back at the spot of the fumble?

Yes. I've stated that many times over the years.

 

[ElTexan]

Or at the line of scrimmage would work too. I can see that. You go on a 40 yard run and then fumble like a moron through the end zone, U.S. Have to bring it all the way back. Yeah, that could work too, but I like 'spot of the fumble' better.

 

[Codaxx]

Hurts the D? How? They did not take positive control of the ball after being pushed literally all the way across the field. It doesn't "hurt the D" anymore than anywhere else on the neutral playing field when the offense loses a fumble out the sideline, or for that matter makes an incomplete pass, etc.

Currently the rule is a change of possession on both ends. Safety is award to the defense, which has less value than a punt from the 1. Sideline is a different area than the end zone. That is clear by the rules. You don't score jumping out of bounds, but crossing the 20 yard line

 

[ElTexan]

We know what the current rules are. Some of us are arguing that the one rule doesn't reflect and respect consistent positive gameplay. Football is about moving the ball and your team in one direction: the rules should respect that.

The Defense pushing the Offense backwards through their own end zone SHOULD be respected differently than the Offense pushing the D all the way across the field then just fumbling it out of bounds there.

 

[Red_Alert]

Currently the rule is a change of possession on both ends. Safety is award to the defense, which has less value than a punt from the 1. Sideline is a different area than the end zone. That is clear by the rules. You don't score jumping out of bounds, but crossing the 20 yard line

Potentially, yes.

I wonder what the % stats are for a team getting (at least) a FG when their opponent punts from inside their 5? I'd guess better than 50%

If they get the ball at your 40, they are pretty well assured of a FG if they get one first down.

 

[Codaxx]

We know what the current rules are. Some of us are arguing that the one rule doesn't reflect and respect consistent positive gameplay. Football is about moving the ball and your team in one direction: the rules should respect that.

The Defense pushing the Offense backwards through their own end zone SHOULD be respected differently than the Offense pushing the D all the way across the field then just fumbling it out of bounds there.

Why? You are arguing that a defender makes a good play in their territory, forcing the fumble, should be ignored. When they make great play and force a fumble out of the offense's zone, they are rewarded with a suboptimal choice. You are also basing your argument on the defense allowing the offense to drive into the red zone. Does your opinion change if they received the ball on the 2 yard line, due to a muffed punt?

 

[ElTexan]

It's not ignored. The offense is stopped. That's the defender's job. It is not ignored, it's just not massively unproportionally rewarded.

 

[Codaxx]

Potentially, yes.

I wonder what the % stats are for a team getting (at least) a FG when their opponent punts from inside their 5? I'd guess better than 50%

If they get the ball at your 40, they are pretty well assured of a FG if they get one first down.

Expected pts are around 4.5 with 1st down at the 30. It's around 1.5 at your 40.

 

[ElTexan]

We already went over the edge case of muffed punts, etc. those are rare edge cases. We don't make rules for rare edge cases AT THE DISMAY of the much more common cases.

So yes, every 30 or so years, an offense will get to start inside the 5 because the other team muffed a punt or so, and also afterward fumble through the end zone… and yes, that extreme edge case will benefit that 'undeserving' offense under my 'offense keeps ball at spot of foul' rule.

Not too concerned about having the rule as it is currently because of that once every 30 years type of occurrence

 

[Red_Alert]

We know what the current rules are. Some of us are arguing that the one rule doesn't reflect and respect consistent positive gameplay. Football is about moving the ball and your team in one direction: the rules should respect that.

The Defense pushing the Offense backwards through their own end zone SHOULD be respected differently than the Offense pushing the D all the way across the field then just fumbling it out of bounds there.

In event the ball goes out of bounds or out of the back of the end-zone. Last team to touch the ball gets it at the spot of the fumble.

If it's indiscernible on replay who last touched the ball, the offense gets the ball at the spot of the fumble.

Kind of like a catch where the defender can also make claim to an INT. The ball goes to the WR as opposed to the DB.

 

[Codaxx]

We already went over the edge case of muffed punts, etc. those are rare edge cases. We don't make rules for rare edge cases AT THE DISMAY of the much more common cases.

You can not ignore something, because it does not fit your agenda. Just tell me why the offense should receive the benefit in both situations of a ball being fumbled out of either end zone. If you were consistent you would reward the defense with possession at the spot of the fumble prior to the offense fumbling out of their end zone. I doubt you would be in favor of that.

 

[Red_Alert]

Expected pts are around 4.5 with 1st down at the 30. It's around 1.5 at your 40.

Good info.

Where did you get that?

 

[ElTexan]

I'm not ignoring anything. I am stating that the extreme edge case shouldn't be the basis for a rule that seeks to respect positive gameplay. The MUCH more common cases should be the basis for the rule.

 

[cwerph]

Make it like a jump ball in basketball . . . use the XFL model: Replacing the coin toss at the beginning of each game was an event in which one player from each team fought to recover a football 20 yards away in order to determine possession. Both players lined up side-by-side on one of the 30-yard lines, with the ball being placed at the 50-yard line. At the whistle, the two players would run toward the ball and attempt to gain possession; whichever player gained possession first was allowed to choose possession (as if he had won a coin toss in other leagues).