So I guess we are drafting Brandon Scherff

[Sharkinva]

Shark: You and I had a misunderstand a week or so ago. For the longest time I had assumed that you were pimping the idea that it's fine to reach 4-5 spots to take your boy because he fills a glaring need for the Redskins. Later you amended your position, or should I say clarified it, to say that you consider Scherff one of the top 5 players in the draft. Now that is a totally different position. I can argue your assessment of the player but I can't argue the strategy of taking your 5th rated player at 5.

Now I'll ask you a question that should clear up any misunderstandings. Forget the Redskins, let's say you had no team and were a gambler who follows football very closely but has no alliance to any particular team. Would you still consider Scherff the 5th best player in this draft? Be honest.

Total honesty based on what i have seen of the players in this draft. Sherff would still be in my top 3-7 players. As an outsider looking in with no skin (pun intended) in the game I would STILL have to place team need aspect onto it as well though. I admit some of the pass rushers I find interesting, hell I even admit that Shelton has some appeal and would fall into my top ten players. But I rate guys first off of how well they rank at their respective position. Secondly how likely they are to succeed base on where they are coming in. Last think I look at is their potential ceiling. I have seen way too many guys who had position transcending skill sets come in and be average. Rarely have I seen guys with solid positional skills but needing coaching in some areas out right fail.

 

[Sharkinva]

i would draft cooper schreff at 5 and why is everbody forgeting about the lsu guy la collins rg. and he'can play'rtt

NO one is forgetting Collins, but to put it in car terms, Collins is a Base model with potential for upgrade, Schreff is the showroom piece that you could still improve on. And I freely admit there is no Top Fuel dragster in this draft aside from Williams.

Side note, The top two QBs are a couple of Civics with Fast and Furious paint jobs.

 

[Caliskinsfan]

NO one is forgetting Collins, but to put it in car terms, Collins is a Base model with potential for upgrade, Schreff is the showroom piece that you could still improve on. And I freely admit there is no Top Fuel dragster in this draft aside from Williams.

Side note, The top two QBs are a couple of Civics with Fast and Furious paint jobs.

 

[redskinsfan]

Value is always a personal and subjective thing. I can tell you a car is worth $x amount based on Kelly Blue Book. How ever if you are not willing to pay that much for it, then you dont consider it to be worth MY assumed value of that car. Conversely, Dean might walk in knowing that car is listed at $x but be willing to pay $X plus because he just has to have it.

I think we disagree on Scherffs worth. I see some one that likely will solidify the right side of our line for years and well worth the fifth pick and not a reach. You see the fifth pick and hold visions of the two players we can get instead of one. I dont think its a reach to take the best player in his position group in the draft at five simply because he is being mocked lower not because of his ability but because of perceived team needs of the top five teams in the draft.

Or do you really believe Winston and Mariota are the best players in this draft??

Value can be a subjective evaluation, but can be is most often an objective one. To the extent it is subjective, it is often an intrinsic value that one gives to someone or something, but in most cases, whether it's cars, real estate, players and draft choices, there are some well-established criterion that yield what each are worth on the open market.

We can disagree on Scherff's worth, but you'd be in the distinct minority if you believe he's in the top five. The consensus on his value is around 10 to 15. Nine is a very, very liberal assessment of where Scherff sits on anyone's Big Board, which makes it thus a further reach than that which we were previously discussing. I believe Winston is the second best player in the draft. My view on Mariota depends on what type of system he's in.

 

[redskinsfan]

QBs values should be an entirely different discussion.

But minus them, @Sharkinva and @redskinsfan, who are your top 5 choices?

Leonard Williams
Dante Fowler
Shane Ray
Amari Cooper
Vic Beasley

 

[Sharkinva]

Leonard Williams
Dante Fowler
Shane Ray
Amari Cooper
Vic Beasley

Ray

WEAKNESSES
Lacks ideal length as an outside rusher. At times was engulfed and glued to the bigger tackles he faced. Can get too focused on hand fighting if he doesn't win with hands early in pass rush. Will occasionally stunt himself out of a play, opening up running lane. If rushing from inside, must learn to set up teammates when running "T/E" (tackle first, end under) twists. Relies on arm-over inside and slap/rip outside -- needs more variety to pass rush.

Fowler

WEAKNESSES
Bounced all over the field. Raw pass rusher. Still learning nuances of the position. Needs more coordination between hands and feet. Pass-rush approach lacks efficiency and includes too much wasted motion. Expected "speed-to-power" conversion inconsistent on tape. Tackles with length can lock him out and run him over the top. Average lower-body strength with limited window to fend off power. Limited recovery talent when beaten early in snap. Inconsistency against downhill running game is a concern.

Beasley

WEAKNESSES
High cut with narrow waist and thin legs. Needs to add more bulk. Unlikely to convert speed to power against NFL tackles. Wins with athleticism on majority of his sacks. Rarely transitions from speed rush to spin as an instinctual pass-rush counter. Lacks ideal arm length. Too often content to stay blocked if pass rush stalls out. Needs to shed blocks more consistently against run. Good football character, but scouts are concerned about a lack of alpha-dog tenacity.

 

[redskinsfan]

Ray

WEAKNESSES
Lacks ideal length as an outside rusher. At times was engulfed and glued to the bigger tackles he faced. Can get too focused on hand fighting if he doesn't win with hands early in pass rush. Will occasionally stunt himself out of a play, opening up running lane. If rushing from inside, must learn to set up teammates when running "T/E" (tackle first, end under) twists. Relies on arm-over inside and slap/rip outside -- needs more variety to pass rush.

Fowler

WEAKNESSES
Bounced all over the field. Raw pass rusher. Still learning nuances of the position. Needs more coordination between hands and feet. Pass-rush approach lacks efficiency and includes too much wasted motion. Expected "speed-to-power" conversion inconsistent on tape. Tackles with length can lock him out and run him over the top. Average lower-body strength with limited window to fend off power. Limited recovery talent when beaten early in snap. Inconsistency against downhill running game is a concern.

Beasley

WEAKNESSES
High cut with narrow waist and thin legs. Needs to add more bulk. Unlikely to convert speed to power against NFL tackles. Wins with athleticism on majority of his sacks. Rarely transitions from speed rush to spin as an instinctual pass-rush counter. Lacks ideal arm length. Too often content to stay blocked if pass rush stalls out. Needs to shed blocks more consistently against run. Good football character, but scouts are concerned about a lack of alpha-dog tenacity.

Shark, have you ever considered motivational speaking as another career path?

 

[Sharkinva]

Shark, have you ever considered motivational speaking as another career path?

Yes,

It started like this.. prepare for every day as if you are at your weakest point, build up from there. So every night you feel stronger.

And ended with .. Yours is not to Question why, yours is just to do or Die. But i admit I totally jacked that last part from a Marine Corp general who in turn Jacked it from Alfred Lord Tennyson

 

[redskinsfan]

Yes,

It started like this.. prepare for every day as if you are at your weakest point, build up from there. So every night you feel stronger.

And ended with .. Yours is not to Question why, yours is just to do or Die. But i admit I totally jacked that last part from a Marine Corp general who in turn Jacked it from Alfred Lord Tennyson

Insightful. Question: how would Beasley, Fowler and Ray feel after reading your prior post about them?

 

[Sharkinva]

Insightful. Question: how would Beasley, Fowler and Ray feel after reading your prior post about them?

Hopefully they would feel like they have work to do instead of feeling like getting drafted is the end of the journey. Any one of these guys based on their weaknesses SHOULD be considered late first to early/mid second rounders. My honest take is, one or more will go in the top ten and take that as a sign that they have arrived and thus DONT need to work on those red flag areas. One in particular reminds me of RAK as far as his red flags.

 

[Sharkinva]

By the way, Im not saying these guys will fail. What i am saying is, if we are talking about a top ten pick, Im going to go with the guy who has the least amount of holes in his game. Not the guys with the Boom or Bust tags. And all three of them have some MAJOR holes according to these weakness takes.

 

[deanpet21]

Shark you can pick apart any top 10 prospect in this years draft. Their are actually weaknesses in Williams game too. Fowler has the least major holes out of all the OLB's in this draft. Even your boy Scherff has major holes. If you want the safest player in this draft at #5, I think it is Cooper.

Do we need a WR right now? NO. But the cap numbers of Garcon and Roberts are ridiculous for 2016. Jackson is very injury prone. So you can make a case for Cooper at #5. But again WR is a very deep position in this years draft. Is Cooper worth taking at #5?

If you are a true BPA believer then your draft board should be like this: Williams, Cooper, and Fowler. If these three guys are gone by #5 then I believe there is going to be major problems in the Redskins war room. I believe these are the best three players in this draft.

 

[redskinsfan]

Hopefully they would feel like they have work to do instead of feeling like getting drafted is the end of the journey. Any one of these guys based on their weaknesses SHOULD be considered late first to early/mid second rounders. My honest take is, one or more will go in the top ten and take that as a sign that they have arrived and thus DONT need to work on those red flag areas. One in particular reminds me of RAK as far as his red flags.

The problem with focusing in on their weaknesses alone is that you ignore a holistic analysis that takes into account their stengths and other factors. When viewed as a whole, these guys are the best the draft have to offer, and outpace people like Scherff. No one views him as top 5 pick and most others put him in the 10-15 range. Picking him at 5 is simply way too much value you're giving up unless you know he's going to be the next Larry Allen, which you don't. If you want to talk weaknesses, how about Scherrf's short arms and his slow footwork that makes him a liability in pass protection? That disqualifies him from OT consideration on that ground alone. And even if he were a tackle, we'd be drafting him as a right tackle, not left. Right tackles, like guards, aren't those you use fifth overall picks on.

 

[deanpet21]

I agree Redskinsfan. What do you think about Cooper at #5 if Williams, Fowler and the two Qb;s go top 4.

 

[Sharkinva]

Shark you can pick apart any top 10 prospect in this years draft. Their are actually weaknesses in Williams game too. Fowler has the least major holes out of all the OLB's in this draft. Even your boy Scherff has major holes. If you want the safest player in this draft at #5, I think it is Cooper.

Do we need a WR right now? NO. But the cap numbers of Garcon and Roberts are ridiculous for 2016. Jackson is very injury prone. So you can make a case for Cooper at #5. But again WR is a very deep position in this years draft. Is Cooper worth taking at #5?

If you are a true BPA believer then your draft board should be like this: Williams, Cooper, and Fowler. If these three guys are gone by #5 then I believe there is going to be major problems in the Redskins war room. I believe these are the best three players in this draft.

Dean if we are going to compare holes in games. Its alot more glaring in my eyes when a guy is basically still learning the position. For a top five pick Fowler just doesnt cut it. Actually NONE of the OLBs do. I never said Scherff didnt have holes in his game. But an OT that needs to IMPROVE on his pass blocking is alot better than an OLB that is still learning how to pass rush AND is suspect in run coverage as well. Notice when I listed my five, I do actually think that two of the WRs are actually better prospects than Scherff. But I call BULLSHIT when people say you totally ignore need and simply take the best player on your board and damn the outcome. IM not drafting a 3rd stringer with a top five pick when I have a starter sitting there that would make the whole TEAM better.

 

[deanpet21]

We disagree on Fowler. When Florida has its pro day there is going to be huge buzz on him. He might not even make it to us. What do you think about Cooper at #5 if the 2 qb's, Williams and Fowler go top 4? Don't say trade down cant forecast that. What's your opinion?

 

[deanpet21]

plus if you draft an OT who has pass blocking problems at #5 that is a huge red flag. The whole point of an OT is to pass block. lol. You want to draft a guy who would have to develop that trait . He should already have that trait going into the pros. Like you said this the #5 overall pick we are talking about.

 

[Sharkinva]

The problem with focusing in on their weaknesses alone is that you ignore a holistic analysis that takes into account their stengths and other factors. When viewed as a whole, these guys are the best the draft have to offer, and outpace people like Scherff. No one views him as top 5 pick and most others put him in the 10-15 range. Picking him at 5 is simply way too much value you're giving up unless you know he's going to be the next Larry Allen, which you don't. If you want to talk weaknesses, how about Scherrf's short arms and his slow footwork that makes him a liability in pass protection? That disqualifies him from OT consideration on that ground alone. And even if he were a tackle, we'd be drafting him as a right tackle, not left. Right tackles, like guards, aren't those you use fifth overall picks on.

Actually he has the same Arm length as Jake Matthews who is a current starting LT in this league. So Im not buying the whole short arms theory. I think you guys are too hung up on .. .you dont draft a RT with the top five pick. This guy has been billed as being able to play any position on the o-line. And picking the next Orakpo at 5 is questionable at best. Just going for the sexy pick at worst.

Jake Matthews Draft Profile NFL.com

Matthews was picked at #6 by the way.

 

[deanpet21]

There is no way that Scherff has the same talent as Jake Matthews. Cmon Shark now you are really stretching.

 

[deanpet21]

Plus doesn't that make Scherff a reach b/c he does not have pro ready pass blocking skills? So how is that a safe pick? I wish Jake MAtthews was in this draft. There would be no argument from me taking him at #5.