So I guess we are drafting Brandon Scherff

[redskinsfan]

Im getting that we can address the line by trading down. What you arent getting is, why take a lesser talent just to say you took more players?? This kid is the best O-lineman in this draft. You would be hard pressed to find many who would disagree. The only real points I have heard for Not taking him at #5 is

1. You never take a guard that high.
2. Y have to get a game changer with a pick that high
3. We could trade down and MIGHT get a guy just as capable while also having more picks.


Sorry bro.. But i think all three are cop outs for simply saying we need to do something more exciting with a top five pick and a Guard is simply too boring.

IF the worst we get is a kid who is considered a bigger stronger version of Zack Martin, and it cost us a top five pick... I say we got a bargain.

Those are hardly cop outs, especially for a team like us that has so many needs. When a team like us has a #5 pick, you trade down and, although you may give up on a primetime player, you get more just a tick down the talent totem pole. And who might believe that? Yes, Scott McCloughan. The only time he'd stay at #5 is to pick someone like a Leonard Williams or, if he absolutely had to, Dante Fowler. Otherwise, it's parlaying the blue chip pick into others in the hands of a proven talent evaluator.

And unless you can say we're getting the next Larry Allen, picking Scherff at five means we screwed up. Big time.

Here's a question for you: do you think McCloughan will use our #5 pick on Scherff? Answer it honestly. When/if you do, you'll find out where you and others stand on the prudence of using such a high pick on an OG.

 

[Sharkinva]

Those are hardly cop outs, especially for a team like us that has so many needs. When a team like us has a #5 pick, you trade down and, although you may give up on a primetime player, you get more just a tick down the talent totem pole. And who might believe that? Yes, Scott McCloughan. The only time he'd stay at #5 is to pick someone like a Leonard Williams or, if he absolutely had to, Dante Fowler. Otherwise, it's parlaying the blue chip pick into others in the hands of a proven talent evaluator.

And unless you can say we're getting the next Larry Allen, picking Scherff at five means we screwed up. Big time.

Here's a question for you: do you think McCloughan will use our #5 pick on Scherff? Answer it honestly. When/if you do, you'll find out where you and others stand on the prudence of using such a high pick on an OG.

I think if he is smart he will consider it. But realistically I think we either take the next Orakpo or trade the pick and in two years every one will be saying once again... we shouldnt have passed on this guy. I realize Guard is not the sexy or "value" pick at #5 . But reality is, our biggest need and smartest pick would be Scherff unless Williams is sitting there. Because NONE of the pass rushers they mention outside of Williams is actually worth the pick in my opinion. And I think Scherff falls only behind Williams as far as a sure thing worthy of the pick.

 

[redskinsfan]

I think if he is smart he will consider it. But realistically I think we either take the next Orakpo or trade the pick and in two years every one will be saying once again... we shouldnt have passed on this guy. I realize Guard is not the sexy or "value" pick at #5 . But reality is, our biggest need and smartest pick would be Scherff unless Williams is sitting there. Because NONE of the pass rushers they mention outside of Williams is actually worth the pick in my opinion. And I think Scherff falls only behind Williams as far as a sure thing worthy of the pick.

I'm not into sexy picks. I'm into BPAs that fill needs. Of all the people that we can emulate on this issue we're debating are none other than the Dallas Cowboys, who've taken three o-linemen in first round in the past three of the four years. I'd love to accomplish what they've done. Having said that, neither you, I, or anyone on this board knows how Scherff will turn out or, for that matter, any of the OLBs. As much as one of the OLBs may be the next Rak, Scherff could be the next Leribeus. What we have to rely on is the draft punditry consensus on this issue: Scherff is 10 to 15 pick guy, and the OLBs like Fowler are Top 5. Viewed that way, drafting Scherff at #5 is way too high whereas someone like Fowler is a good catch where we're at.

Too much of your analysis is premised on a huge assumption: that Scherff is some Larry Allen type. He's projected to be a stud at OG, but not of the Allen variety. And because of that, we can't blow a pick this high on someone like him.

 

[redskinsfan]

Among the many mock drafts out there, Charles Davis put one out with Scherff sliding all the way down to 18. This appears to be an outlier, but shows how far he could fall given his projection as a guard. He has us taking Randy Gregory at #5, but his mock draft was dated March 25, which I believe was prior to the blunt-rolling revelations regarding RG. Fowler goes third overall to the Jags. Two other NFL Network guys have Fowler going there as well.

2015 NFL Mock Drafts : Mock draft 3.0: Gurley goes to Falcons

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

how do you know he isnt ? you or i have no idea of what he will be or wont be

now if we draft fowler or beasley or some other pass rusher i wont get mad

what i am saying is scherf is a top 9 rated player and he plays a position that we need . as is fowler or beasley . and we have murphy

Of course we don't know anything for sure. I'm simply going by projections. But you were the one to project a worst case scenario that he will be as good as Hall of Famer Larry Allen. Worst case.

That's nuts my friend. Simply nuts.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

i dont consider grabbing a guy 4 spots "ahead" as reaching

Then you would be wrong. You just defined reaching.

 

[redskinsfan]

Then you would be wrong. You just defined reaching.

True that. People get bamboozled by the relative small numerical differences in the draft numbers. But, as we saw with the RGIII trade, the four selections difference between two and six was huge. That's because in any draft, blue chippers make up around the first five picks or so, and the can't miss ones are in the first two or maybe three. Trading out of one of those spots means giving up on a potential game changing franchise player.

 

[Sharkinva]

True that. People get bamboozled by the relative small numerical differences in the draft numbers. But, as we saw with the RGIII trade, the four selections difference between two and six was huge. That's because in any draft, blue chippers make up around the first five picks or so, and the can't miss ones are in the first two or maybe three. Trading out of one of those spots means giving up on a potential game changing franchise player.

And i will feed you the ad-nausium excuse I have heard in defense of RG3 a million times.

With all those picks the Rams got, what have they done?? They might have been better served fixing that O-line. They could have simply taken Matt Khalil and actually fixed the line but got greedy and now they are STILL trying to fix the line.

Some times the greedy play is NOT the right play.. as proven by the Rams.

You are all pounding the drum for a game changer. I ask again what would CHANGE our game more?? Another knuckle head doing a sack dance in the fourth quarter of a 45-14 blow out. Or an offensive line that isnt actually offensive??

 

[Caliskinsfan]

my view is either...if they benefit the team long term.

 

[redskinsfan]

And i will feed you the ad-nausium excuse I have heard in defense of RG3 a million times.

With all those picks the Rams got, what have they done?? They might have been better served fixing that O-line. They could have simply taken Matt Khalil and actually fixed the line but got greedy and now they are STILL trying to fix the line.

Some times the greedy play is NOT the right play.. as proven by the Rams.

You are all pounding the drum for a game changer. I ask again what would CHANGE our game more?? Another knuckle head doing a sack dance in the fourth quarter of a 45-14 blow out. Or an offensive line that isnt actually offensive??

You are conflating two very different points. On the one hand, there's the issue of what type of value you get when you trade up or down the draft. On the other hand, there's the point of whether value you get or give up is worth it.

In the RGIII trade, it's debatable whether we struck an equitable bargain with the Rams in trading down from six-to-two. That's the "value" issue here. The "worth" part of it is whether, given the value we gave up, it was worth it to select RGIII. In 2012, it looked like it certainly was "worth" it. Afterwards, that changed.

The issue of of a five-to-nine jump is what "value" we're giving up (second rounder) and whether it's "worth" it to take Scherff despite the value we're losing. To me, it's not.

 

[Sharkinva]

You are conflating two very different points. On the one hand, there's the issue of what type of value you get when you trade up or down the draft. On the other hand, there's the point of whether value you get or give up is worth it.

In the RGIII trade, it's debatable whether we struck an equitable bargain with the Rams in trading down from six-to-two. That's the "value" issue here. The "worth" part of it is whether, given the value we gave up, it was worth it to select RGIII. In 2012, it looked like it certainly was "worth" it. Afterwards, that changed.

The issue of of a five-to-nine jump is what "value" we're giving up (second rounder) and whether it's "worth" it to take Scherff despite the value we're losing. To me, it's not.

Again dude... Value is subjective. You are basically placing more value on the two draft picks and saying that because of volume they will automatically be of more value than the one player. I respectfully disagree. And in this case you are basically saying its better to get a guy who should start at some point and a guy who COULD start at some point, by giving up a guy who WILL start from day one. If we were an 11-4 team sure trade down and draft for depth. But I dont think you trade away from a sure starter to bring in to should eventually start type players.

 

[redskinsfan]

Again dude... Value is subjective. You are basically placing more value on the two draft picks and saying that because of volume they will automatically be of more value than the one player. I respectfully disagree. And in this case you are basically saying its better to get a guy who should start at some point and a guy who COULD start at some point, by giving up a guy who WILL start from day one. If we were an 11-4 team sure trade down and draft for depth. But I dont think you trade away from a sure starter to bring in to should eventually start type players.

Value is not, in general, subjective. Like real estate appraisals, they are based on objective and well-established parameters that yield fair market value, one of which is the draft value chart. The subjective part of any draft move is what a team deems as worth. For instance, if a team stays within the accepted parameters of value, you then determine whether it's subjectively worth it to the team. Again, the issue here is whether reaching for Scherff with our #5 is worth giving up second round value. My guess is that most would disagree.

 

[Sharkinva]

Value is not, in general, subjective. Like real estate appraisals, they are based on objective and well-established parameters that yield fair market value, one of which is the draft value chart. The subjective part of any draft move is what a team deems as worth. For instance, if a team stays within the accepted parameters of value, you then determine whether it's subjectively worth it to the team. Again, the issue here is whether reaching for Scherff with our #5 is worth giving up second round value. My guess is that most would disagree.

Value is always a personal and subjective thing. I can tell you a car is worth $x amount based on Kelly Blue Book. How ever if you are not willing to pay that much for it, then you dont consider it to be worth MY assumed value of that car. Conversely, Dean might walk in knowing that car is listed at $x but be willing to pay $X plus because he just has to have it.

I think we disagree on Scherffs worth. I see some one that likely will solidify the right side of our line for years and well worth the fifth pick and not a reach. You see the fifth pick and hold visions of the two players we can get instead of one. I dont think its a reach to take the best player in his position group in the draft at five simply because he is being mocked lower not because of his ability but because of perceived team needs of the top five teams in the draft.

Or do you really believe Winston and Mariota are the best players in this draft??

 

[Caliskinsfan]

QBs values should be an entirely different discussion.

But minus them, @Sharkinva and @redskinsfan, who are your top 5 choices?

 

[Sharkinva]

QBs values should be an entirely different discussion.

But minus them, @Sharkinva and @redskinsfan, who are your top 5 choices?

In this order

Williams
White
Cooper
Scherff
Gurley

Mind you the only one I would take over Scherff would be Williams. I like the WR's, but I think they would be a luxury as would the RB.

 

[Caliskinsfan]

In this order

Williams
White
Cooper
Scherff
Gurley

Mind you the only one I would take over Scherff would be Williams. I like the WR's, but I think they would be a luxury as would the RB.

See I'd take the player I valued the best, in the order I valued them. Seems like a better long term strategy to me.

But I understand your argument. And where you are coming from. This is where the fun debate comes in

 

[Sharkinva]

See I'd take the player I valued the best, in the order I valued them. Seems like a better long term strategy to me.

But I understand your argument. And where you are coming from. This is where the fun debate comes in

My list was based solely on who I thought the five best players in this draft were. I dont value the WRs more because WR's in my opinion are always only as good as the QB they have throwing to them. If you had Megatron and Dez but your QB was me... how valuable are those WRs??

Flip side if you had AM as your running back, me as your QB, but a solid line across the board... those WRs become alot more valuable because while you might not be worried about me beating you with my awesome deep ball, I would get time to throw because if you dont respect my ground game it will run you over.

 

[Caliskinsfan]

My list was based solely on who I thought the five best players in this draft were. I dont value the WRs more because WR's in my opinion are always only as good as the QB they have throwing to them. If you had Megatron and Dez but your QB was me... how valuable are those WRs??

Flip side if you had AM as your running back, me as your QB, but a solid line across the board... those WRs become alot more valuable because while you might not be worried about me beating you with my awesome deep ball, I would get time to throw because if you dont respect my ground game it will run you over.

My thinking goes like this.

Set who you think are the best football players who fit the team and scheme. Keep it fluid for trades if it makes sense. Remember to go for the best player on your board, regardless of position.

QBs being a whole different conversation.

So it's simply a difference in approach.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Shark: You and I had a misunderstand a week or so ago. For the longest time I had assumed that you were pimping the idea that it's fine to reach 4-5 spots to take your boy because he fills a glaring need for the Redskins. Later you amended your position, or should I say clarified it, to say that you consider Scherff one of the top 5 players in the draft. Now that is a totally different position. I can argue your assessment of the player but I can't argue the strategy of taking your 5th rated player at 5.

Now I'll ask you a question that should clear up any misunderstandings. Forget the Redskins, let's say you had no team and were a gambler who follows football very closely but has no alliance to any particular team. Would you still consider Scherff the 5th best player in this draft? Be honest.

 

[Buffalo_Nickel_1]

i would draft cooper schreff at 5 and why is everbody forgeting about the lsu guy la collins rg. and he'can play'rtt