More crappy D from the "elite" Ws

[Hambombs]

Again without getting into what 'elite' means, I don't think I agree they were a championship contender yet with Iguodala early in the year. But they were close, closer than they are now with him gimpy. That said, it's not the only thing wrong with the team. The turnovers are a real thing.

So how can they make the leap to contender without cap room or draft picks? It will be tough, but not impossible. If they have better health next year, and the youngsters learn more, learn to take care of the ball better, etc they might have a shot. They will need some luck too, with other contenders falling back (will SA finally get too old? Will Miami?) or getting injuries. And a whole year with a deeper bench should help too.

I think I fall in the middle between Hambombs' optimism and tzill/southernfried's pessimism. They aren't/weren't ready this year, but they improved notably and may be able to contend next year...

I'm not saying they are going to win the championship but making it to the conference finals is not impossible. But I think with the healthy iguodala they were probably the 3rd-4th best team in the west IMO

 

[Hambombs]

But still I'm going to give this team more time to see where they're at come mid April

 

[Hambombs]

Also if a player wants to come here, sign and trade is a possibility

 

[TobyTyler]

I'm not saying they are going to win the championship but making it to the conference finals is not impossible. But I think with the healthy iguodala they were probably the 3rd-4th best team in the west IMO

I don't think they could beat either San Antonio or OKC in a 7-game series. I think they could win a first round series on the road though.

 

[tzill]

tzill, curious about something. We can go back and forth about the meaning of 'elite' and all that, but taking a step back, I think we all agree the team has good to very good defense (obviously needs more consistency), and off and on offense (needs same). That they are a good team, a playoff team in a stacked conference, but also a young team, not yet a true contender.

What did you expect of these guys this year? Did you think they were a elite team yet? A championship contender? I don't think anyone really did, but they were expected to build on last year's success, and I think you have to agree they have done. They are better than last year, especially defensively.

So, I mean, are you not happy with things? It was very recently this team was a total league afterthought.

MSG, let me address your very good questions:

1. I agree the defense overall has been pretty good, but inconsistent
2. I agree the offense has been inconsistent in general
3. I agree that they are a good team in a very good conference
4. I do NOT agree that they are a young team. 5 key players are 29 or older -- Blake (34), Bogut (29), Iggy (30), Lee (30), O'Neal (35). That's 60% of the #fullsquad and two key reserves.
5. I expected the Ws to progress this year. I expected them to seriously contend for the Conference. The FO pushed their chips into the center of the table when they let Jack and Landry go and obtained Iggy. It was a bold move and I think ALL of us thought "they're going to be better." I'm not convinced that they are better than last year. I'm not convinced that they are going to get to the second round and push a team like the Spurs to the limit as they did last year.

Defensively, they are better. They should be with an elite defender like Iggy. But, he's hurt and outside of Bogut the rest of the team goes into sleep mode waaaay to often for the talent level that they have. Klay has regressed on both sides of the ball, Barnes has regressed. Ezeli is in ghost mode. Avi, as poor as he defended last year, seems to be worse. Steph hasn't improved on D, but that could well be a function of expending way too much energy most nights carrying the offense.

I see your point, and I am grateful that the Ws are relevant in the NBA landscape. I'm disappointed with the effort on D given the talent level of the team. Last year, they overachieved -- this year it seems like they are underachieving. Maybe they'll pull it all together in the playoffs and make a deep and defensively intense run.

My main beef has been with Hanbombs, and HWSHNBN, who cling to this "defensive efficiency" metric in abject ignorance of what is right in front of every fan's eyes. They are not elite defenders. Yet when I do the work to show what I mean the response is "they're 3rd in defensive efficiency -- that's elite."

If Hanbombs is trolling me, he's doing a fantastic job.

 

[tzill]

Somewhat better, yes, but I think they are still underperforming those expectations. They won 47 games last year, right now they are on pace for 49 wins this year. But consider they have a mostly-healthy Bogut (who only played 32 games last year) and Curry, added a fairly significant starter in Andre Iguodala, and have what should be improved play from young players Klay and Barnes.

Yet all that has only resulted in a (projected) 2 game improvement. I wouldn't call it a disaster by any means, but this team doesn't seem to be making a whole lot of progress. They still have some potential to be a surprise, longshot, dark horse team in the playoffs, but that's about it. Getting bounced in the first round or missing the playoffs entirely is at least as likely as them making a deep run. Considering they are capped out, up against the luxury tax, and basically have no draft picks remaining for years, the prospects for making a big jump necessary to compete for a title are a challenge.

What I see is a fairly significantly improved defense over last year, while the offense has taken a step back. And if anything, they are not taking care of the ball even as much as last year, where they already were pretty bad. The problem is, this team is not built for a half court offense, hence they do poorly in slowed-down, grind-it-out- style games, which their improved defense tends to increase the likelihood of.

This.

This post is, as they say, so....money!

 

[tzill]

Again without getting into what 'elite' means, I don't think I agree they were a championship contender yet with Iguodala early in the year. But they were close, closer than they are now with him gimpy. That said, it's not the only thing wrong with the team. The turnovers are a real thing.

So how can they make the leap to contender without cap room or draft picks? It will be tough, but not impossible. If they have better health next year, and the youngsters learn more, learn to take care of the ball better, etc they might have a shot. They will need some luck too, with other contenders falling back (will SA finally get too old? Will Miami?) or getting injuries. And a whole year with a deeper bench should help too.

I think I fall in the middle between Hambombs' optimism and tzill/southernfried's pessimism. They aren't/weren't ready this year, but they improved notably and may be able to contend next year...

The answer is pretty obvious:

Trade Avi. Hopefully, don't give up HB in the process.

 

[msgkings322]

The answer is pretty obvious:

Trade Avi. Hopefully, don't give up HB in the process.

That's a pretty good idea. On the other hand, offense is this team's problem, not defense, and Lee is a very good offensive weapon. Unless you get someone back who can replace his offensive skills you might make the team's weakness weaker.

 

[Hambombs]

I don't think they could beat either San Antonio or OKC in a 7-game series. I think they could win a first round series on the road though.

I agree although it wouldn't be impossible for them to beat them if they take game 1 of course. It's gonna be an interesting last 20 or so games. I think they have the talent lack the discipline

 

[Hambombs]

That's a pretty good idea. On the other hand, offense is this team's problem, not defense, and Lee is a very good offensive weapon. Unless you get someone back who can replace his offensive skills you might make the team's weakness weaker.

Yep if they want to improve on offense trading lee and Barnes plus another piece for Kevin love, who is actually way better defensively than lee obviously

 

[Hambombs]

My main beef has been with Hanbombs, and HWSHNBN, who cling to this "defensive efficiency" metric in abject ignorance of what is right in front of every fan's eyes. They are not elite defenders. Yet when I do the work to show what I mean the response is "they're 3rd in defensive efficiency -- that's elite."

If Hanbombs is trolling me, he's doing a fantastic job.

Scott brooks seems to think the thunder are elite defensively. This team has the talent to play "elite defense"

 

[msgkings322]

Yep if they want to improve on offense trading lee and Barnes plus another piece for Kevin love, who is actually way better defensively than lee obviously

I guess Minny will have to get something for Love and that might be enough. Ws could get outbid with that package.

 

[JustOneDennisBergkamp]

As constructed, the it is impossible for the Warriors to play "elite" defense. There are only a few very good defenders in the team, so they're really about as good as you could reasonably expect at that end of the floor.

Yesterday, it likely wasn't coincidence that Steph had the wheels come off down the stretch, as he was probably more than a bit fatigued from being run out there the entire second half. Not sure what Coach was thinking, but I believe that was the biggest reason, among others, for the fourth quarter collapse.

Overall, the Warriors need to add a half-court Plan B to their Plan A, which is run and gun. Steph and Lee have to start working the two man game more. Not just screen/roll, but tossing it down into the blocks with Lee in deep position. Lee is a legit low-post stud that almost always draws the attention of a second defender, and this kind of inside-out approach would be a great complement to the other things they do.

 

[msgkings322]

As constructed, the it is impossible for the Warriors to play "elite" defense. There are only a few very good defenders in the team, so they're really about as good as you could reasonably expect at that end of the floor.

Yesterday, it likely wasn't coincidence that Steph had the wheels come off down the stretch, as he was probably more than a bit fatigued from being run out there the entire second half. Not sure what Coach was thinking, but I believe that was the biggest reason, among others, for the fourth quarter collapse.

Overall, the Warriors need to add a half-court Plan B to their Plan A, which is run and gun. Steph and Lee have to start working the two man game more. Not just screen/roll, but tossing it down into the blocks with Lee in deep position. Lee is a legit low-post stud that almost always draws the attention of a second defender, and this kind of inside-out approach would be a great complement to the other things they do.

Great post...I usually default to 'the coaches know a lot more than we do' but this seems like a good idea and it's a puzzle why they don't see it (re: Steph getting tired)

 

[ColinCoby]

MSG, let me address your very good questions:

1. I agree the defense overall has been pretty good, but inconsistent
2. I agree the offense has been inconsistent in general
3. I agree that they are a good team in a very good conference
4. I do NOT agree that they are a young team. 5 key players are 29 or older -- Blake (34), Bogut (29), Iggy (30), Lee (30), O'Neal (35). That's 60% of the #fullsquad and two key reserves.
5. I expected the Ws to progress this year. I expected them to seriously contend for the Conference. The FO pushed their chips into the center of the table when they let Jack and Landry go and obtained Iggy. It was a bold move and I think ALL of us thought "they're going to be better." I'm not convinced that they are better than last year. I'm not convinced that they are going to get to the second round and push a team like the Spurs to the limit as they did last year.

Defensively, they are better. They should be with an elite defender like Iggy. But, he's hurt and outside of Bogut the rest of the team goes into sleep mode waaaay to often for the talent level that they have. Klay has regressed on both sides of the ball, Barnes has regressed. Ezeli is in ghost mode. Avi, as poor as he defended last year, seems to be worse. Steph hasn't improved on D, but that could well be a function of expending way too much energy most nights carrying the offense.

I see your point, and I am grateful that the Ws are relevant in the NBA landscape. I'm disappointed with the effort on D given the talent level of the team. Last year, they overachieved -- this year it seems like they are underachieving. Maybe they'll pull it all together in the playoffs and make a deep and defensively intense run.

My main beef has been with Hanbombs, and HWSHNBN, who cling to this "defensive efficiency" metric in abject ignorance of what is right in front of every fan's eyes. They are not elite defenders. Yet when I do the work to show what I mean the response is "they're 3rd in defensive efficiency -- that's elite."

If Hanbombs is trolling me, he's doing a fantastic job.

Nice post.

I would add that while the Ws are not a "young" team, they have three players they rely on heavily who are very young (Barnes, Klay, and Green), with Ezeli eventually logging heavy minutes as well.

I'm with msg; I'm neither optimistic or pessimistic about this squad. They could very well pull off an upset vs. San Antonio, Portland, etc. They have a lot of pieces in place to improve next year. That said, my fear is without more athleticism/"quicks", they will continue to struggle against speedy teams. And without the ability to score in the half court, they will continue to come up short against the Spurs of the world as well.

 

[msgkings322]

Nice post.

I would add that while the Ws are not a "young" team, they have three players they rely on heavily who are very young (Barnes, Klay, and Green), with Ezeli eventually logging heavy minutes as well.

I'm with msg; I'm neither optimistic or pessimistic about this squad. They could very well pull off an upset vs. San Antonio, Portland, etc. They have a lot of pieces in place to improve next year. That said, my fear is without more athleticism/"quicks", they will continue to struggle against speedy teams. And without the ability to score in the half court, they will continue to come up short against the Spurs of the world as well.

And Curry, their most important player, is only about to turn 26.
tzill is right that we aren't super young like say Portland, but we're definitely youngish, definitely so compared to the championship contenders.

 

[tzill]

That's a pretty good idea. On the other hand, offense is this team's problem, not defense, and Lee is a very good offensive weapon. Unless you get someone back who can replace his offensive skills you might make the team's weakness weaker.

Of course it depends upon whom you get in return, but his defensive weakness is so glaring that an average PF would be such an upgrade that the loss in offense would be more than overcome by the defensive gain.


The trick is to find that PF. Possibilities include: Gasol, Love, Milsap, Plumlee, Jefferson.

Not sure any of them would be available for Avi unless we also gave up HB.

 

[Hambombs]

As constructed, the it is impossible for the Warriors to play "elite" defense. There are only a few very good defenders in the team, so they're really about as good as you could reasonably expect at that end of the floor.

Yesterday, it likely wasn't coincidence that Steph had the wheels come off down the stretch, as he was probably more than a bit fatigued from being run out there the entire second half. Not sure what Coach was thinking, but I believe that was the biggest reason, among others, for the fourth quarter collapse.

Overall, the Warriors need to add a half-court Plan B to their Plan A, which is run and gun. Steph and Lee have to start working the two man game more. Not just screen/roll, but tossing it down into the blocks with Lee in deep position. Lee is a legit low-post stud that almost always draws the attention of a second defender, and this kind of inside-out approach would be a great complement to the other things they do.

They can though. Having guys like Barnes, thompson, iguodala, green on the perimeter. JO, bogut down low. Steph has been solid this season also I just wouldn't let him defend elite PGs though. The only weakness on this team is dlee. Chicago has fit boozer into there elite defensive team.

 

[Hambombs]

Of course it depends upon whom you get in return, but his defensive weakness is so glaring that an average PF would be such an upgrade that the loss in offense would be more than overcome by the defensive gain.


The trick is to find that PF. Possibilities include: Gasol, Love, Milsap, Plumlee, Jefferson.

Not sure any of them would be available for Avi unless we also gave up HB.

Would love millsap

 

[JustOneDennisBergkamp]

They can though. Having guys like Barnes, thompson, iguodala, green on the perimeter. JO, bogut down low. Steph has been solid this season also I just wouldn't let him defend elite PGs though. The only weakness on this team is dlee. Chicago has fit boozer into there elite defensive team.

I think that "solid" gives Steph a bit too much credit. His offense is so big, though, he plays whether he can defend at all. Klay still loses focus - and his man - a bit too often. HB is young and prone to the same mistakes (though he possesses the physical attributes necessary to be "elite"). JO is certainly having a resurgence, but he isn't a top defender, and Bogut, despite his blocked shots, has deficiencies going against post-up big men with athleticism.

The D is still good enough to advance in the playoffs, and they should even improve a bit. But as constructed, they will never have a suffocating D capable of just beating the will out of any talented offense.