The Case Against MJ as the GOAT (topical discussion only please)

[trojanfan12]

Well actually it does have to do with basketball. The flopping and crying/whining about fouls has absolutely benefitted him "on the court" over the years, with soooooooooooooo many questionable/borderline calls going his/his team's way...

MJ also benefitted from flopping and whining for fouls and favorable whistles. If you think otherwise, you never saw him play. There is actually video of Magic and Bird (who benefitted from favorable whistles themselves) giving him shit about it by saying "don't get too close to him or it's a foul".

No one has said Lebron's big mouth isn't part of why he gets so much flak. But his big mouth has nothing to do with his on-court accomplishments...yet you MJ deep throaters sure like to pretend it does.

 

[trojanfan12]

Major disadvantage? How so? LeBron "chose" to enter the NBA straight from HS, he wasn't forced.

If you have to ask that question...you really don't belong on this board.

It was a disadvantage when he first came into the league because he wasn't as developed, both physically and in experience as the players he was playing against because they were all older (even the players taken in the same draft) and had continued to develop their games in college.

In the latter part of his career it has become an advantage because he got a 2-3 year head start on building his NBA resume.

Amazing that first part had to be explained to you.

 

[rmilia1]

Something that doesn't get talked about as much as it shoupd in this debate is that the league literally changed the rules to stop Kareem from dominating and they changed the rules to help MJ dominate

If the league had simply just kept the old rules its entirely probable Kareem has 8 or 9+ rings and is still the scoring champ and MJ likely has at least a couple less rings

That's something that kind of gets glossed over in these debates which is funny considering how much MJ fans like to bring up the game being officiated differently now

 

[MAGA2024]

The irony being MJ averaged more free throw attempts per game than Lebron.

Jordan also "attempted" more FG per game than LeBron:

LeBron: 7.5 FTA on 19.6 FGA (a ratio of 1 FT attempt for every 2.61 FGA)
Jordan: 8.2 FTA on 22.9 FGA (a ratio of 1 FT Attempt for every 2.79 FGA)

So LeBron has gone to the line MORE than Jordan when you factor it their FGA.

How about Personal Fouls, you ask?

LeBron: 37.8 minutes per game / 1.8 PF's
Jordan: 38.3 minutes per game / 2.6 PF's

So Jordan played 30 seconds longer per game (on average) than LeBron, and in that extra 30 seconds he was whistled for almost one (1) extra Foul per game... doesn't seem like that supports the claim that MJ got more calls than LeBron either.

No irony... just facts: Jordan >>>> LeBron, and it's not close.

 

[MAGA2024]

If you have to ask that question...you really don't belong on this board.

It was a disadvantage when he first came into the league because he wasn't as developed, both physically and in experience as the players he was playing against because they were all older (even the players taken in the same draft) and had continued to develop their games in college.

In the latter part of his career it has become an advantage because he got a 2-3 year head start on building his NBA resume.

Amazing that first part had to be explained to you.

LOL... I know the answer... but you conveniently ignored my follow up comment (ie; no one FORCED LeBron to skip college, therefore you can't sit there and makes excuses for the man when things don't go your/his way).

Fans like you are exactly the sort I alluded to in my post: You will praise and cheer "40-year old" LeBron for his "stats" YET you will then turn around and use his "age" as an excuse for why he got bounced in the first round by a LOWER seed this year.

LOL

Can't have it both ways...

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Jordan also "attempted" more FG per game than LeBron:

LeBron: 7.5 FTA on 19.6 FGA (a ratio of 1 FT attempt for every 2.61 FGA)
Jordan: 8.2 FTA on 22.9 FGA (a ratio of 1 FT Attempt for every 2.79 FGA)

So LeBron has gone to the line MORE than Jordan when you factor it their FGA.

How about Personal Fouls, you ask?

LeBron: 37.8 minutes per game / 1.8 PF's
Jordan: 38.3 minutes per game / 2.6 PF's

So Jordan played 30 seconds longer per game (on average) than LeBron, and in that extra 30 seconds he was whistled for almost one (1) extra Foul per game... doesn't seem like that supports the claim that MJ got more calls than LeBron either.

No irony... just facts: Jordan >>>> LeBron, and it's not close.

Its cute to see you split hairs

 

[MAGA2024]

Something that doesn't get talked about as much as it shoupd in this debate is that the league literally changed the rules to stop Kareem from dominating and they changed the rules to help MJ dominate

If the league had simply just kept the old rules its entirely probable Kareem has 8 or 9+ rings and is still the scoring champ and MJ likely has at least a couple less rings

That's something that kind of gets glossed over in these debates which is funny considering how much MJ fans like to bring up the game being officiated differently now

What rules did they change to help Jordan dominate because last I checked Jordan was dominating from Day 1.

 

[MAGA2024]

Its cute to see you split hairs

So I used hard-core FACTS to soundly refute your narrative (that Jordan got more preferential treatment than LeBron), and your response is that I'm splitting hairs??

LOL

Okay... by all means feel free to "split hairs yourself and prove what I wrote is incorrect or irrelevant.

 

[rmilia1]

What rules did they change to help Jordan dominate because last I checked Jordan was dominating from Day 1.

-Massive changes to the flagrant foul rule
-Much stricter enforcement in hand checking
-Clear path rule
-Moving the 3 pt line

There were more. But those were specific to limiting the amount of physicality that was showed ( a huge MJ complaint ) and to increase offense while limiting teams ability to slow, pace.

The league had a very serious interest in ensuring MJ win rings after it became clear Bud and Magic were done. They needed the face of the league to be a consistent winner

And Jordan voiced his concerns over the physicality he faced and within months the league had changed to help him with that

 

[trojanfan12]

LOL... I know the answer... but you conveniently ignored my follow up comment (ie; no one FORCED LeBron to skip college, therefore you can't sit there and makes excuses for the man when things don't go your/his way).

Fans like you are exactly the sort I alluded to in my post: You will praise and cheer "40-year old" LeBron for his "stats" YET you will then turn around and use his "age" as an excuse for why he got bounced in the first round by a LOWER seed this year.

LOL

Can't have it both ways...

Reading and comprehension really isn't a strength for you, is it?

 

[MAGA2024]

-Massive changes to the flagrant foul rule
-Much stricter enforcement in hand checking
-Clear path rule
-Moving the 3 pt line

There were more. But those were specific to limiting the amount of physicality that was showed ( a huge MJ complaint ) and to increase offense while limiting teams ability to slow, pace.

The league had a very serious interest in ensuring MJ win rings after it became clear Bud and Magic were done. They needed the face of the league to be a consistent winner

And Jordan voiced his concerns over the physicality he faced and within months the league had changed to help him with that

Great... now explain how those rule changes "helped" Jordan dominate when his numbers actually declined during the Championship years.

Makes no sense.

The ONLY legit rule change that had a significant impact on the NBA as a whole were related to the physicality in the game... but that was specifically related to the Pistons, who weren't merely physical, they were literally assaulting opponents on the court (not just the Bulls/Jordan either).

Go back and watch the Bulls' playoff series against the early 90's Knicks... those series were bruatlly physical yet Jordan still dominated and he still won.

 

[MAGA2024]

Reading and comprehension really isn't a strength for you, is it?

lolol... maybe not, but getting your ass kicked in a debate AND deflecting sure is a strength of yours though.

 

[rmilia1]

Great... now explain how those rule changes "helped" Jordan dominate when his numbers actually declined during the Championship years.

Makes no sense.

The ONLY legit rule change that had a significant impact on the NBA as a whole were related to the physicality in the game... but that was specifically related to the Pistons, who weren't merely physical, they were literally assaulting opponents on the court (not just the Bulls/Jordan either).

Go back and watch the Bulls' playoff series against the early 90's Knicks... those series were bruatlly physical yet Jordan still dominated and he still won.

They helped him win. Which is what was relevant

If MJ had 1 ring no one would be calling him the GOAT

He won 6 in 8 years after the role changes

You can argue that's coincidence but i ( and many others ) would disagree

 

[tlance]

Jordan also "attempted" more FG per game than LeBron:

LeBron: 7.5 FTA on 19.6 FGA (a ratio of 1 FT attempt for every 2.61 FGA)
Jordan: 8.2 FTA on 22.9 FGA (a ratio of 1 FT Attempt for every 2.79 FGA)

So LeBron has gone to the line MORE than Jordan when you factor it their FGA.

How about Personal Fouls, you ask?

LeBron: 37.8 minutes per game / 1.8 PF's
Jordan: 38.3 minutes per game / 2.6 PF's

So Jordan played 30 seconds longer per game (on average) than LeBron, and in that extra 30 seconds he was whistled for almost one (1) extra Foul per game... doesn't seem like that supports the claim that MJ got more calls than LeBron either.

No irony... just facts: Jordan >>>> LeBron, and it's not close.

As you have said in other posts…

LeBron takes 35% of his shots at the rim.

So he should get to the line a lot. If anything, even more than he has.

At times it seems like he gets the Shaq treatment from officials where a smaller player hits him and the ref doesn’t call it because he finishes through the contact.

But a foul is a foul. Being strong enough to limit the affect shouldn’t count against a player. It absolutely does for LeBron.

 

[trojanfan12]

lolol... maybe not, but getting your ass kicked in a debate AND deflecting sure is a strength of yours though.

It's adorable that you think that is what has happened here.

 

[DJ Fieri]

MJ also benefitted from flopping and whining for fouls and favorable whistles. If you think otherwise, you never saw him play. There is actually video of Magic and Bird (who benefitted from favorable whistles themselves) giving him shit about it by saying "don't get too close to him or it's a foul".

No one has said Lebron's big mouth isn't part of why he gets so much flak. But his big mouth has nothing to do with his on-court accomplishments...yet you MJ deep throaters sure like to pretend it does.

Reggie was also a bit of a flopper back in the day before it became popular.

 

[trojanfan12]

Reggie was also a bit of a flopper back in the day before it became popular.

Miller?

Yep, he sure was. He was the one who invented kicking his leg out to draw a foul on a defender. lol

 

[rmilia1]

Miller?

Yep, he sure was. He was the one who invented kicking his leg out to draw a foul on a defender. lol

Reggie also invented the sparkling your own hand on the follow through to make it sound like you got fouled

Dude was ahead of his time lol