The Case Against MJ as the GOAT (topical discussion only please)

[Wamu]

I think it is bullshit that you have to assign one of the five available positions to him. None of those five positions appropriately defined him.

Since you don't follow the game why are you, just to bitch about things?

Magic wasn't a point guard. MJ wasn't a shooting guard. Now that's comedy. Was Larry Bird a point guard in your world?

 

[Wamu]

-->I'll fully admit that I don't follow today's game.<-- I abandoned it when the NBA abandoned Seattle. I can't comment on the current NBA with any knowledge.

Yeah no shit. Yet you wanna argue about things. Very strange.

 

[rmilia1]

Kindly remind me who started this thread... a Jordan fan "or" a LeBron fan?

I have no idea who he's a fan of

He's a Browns and a Michigan fan so could be anyone.

But all you need to do is go to any MJ related post on social media and someone there is talking about LeBron negatively

No one don't that about Kareem, Magic, Kobe, Russell etc

 

[msgkings322]

Well, seeing as you have responded to well over 100 of my posts, I'd say that you care, for one. Now, you could define it as some other lame as bullshit as I know you will, but, well, this is your life. This right here. 142,600 posts, dude. The only people who have time for that have no social life. This is the extent of your socializing. You can't hack the real world so you live life through an internet bubble. You definitely care how people respond to you in here the same as someone would at a dinner party. So, go ahead, try to cover up, but know in advance, you aren't fooling me.

You spin a good yarn there. Why do you let me get under your skin like this?

 

[msgkings322]

Translation: You got your shit pushed in with facts and substance and have NOTHING to offer in terms of a rebuttal, so instead you resort to insults.

Typical LeBron fan.

SMH

Actually just delivering FACTS like you are so fond of. You really are beneath me.

 

[MAGA2024]

I have no idea who he's a fan of

He's a Browns and a Michigan fan so could be anyone.

But all you need to do is go to any MJ related post on social media and someone there is talking about LeBron negatively

No one don't that about Kareem, Magic, Kobe, Russell etc

Well LeBron hasn't done himself any favors over the years with the debacle known as "The Decision", the non-stop crying and whining to the refs about fouls (for a guy who plays 38 min/g over his career and gets whistled for just 1.5 on average when we all know he commits more than that in just the first Quarter alone), the ridiculous flopping and flailing antics (for a guy who is 6'8 and 250+ pounds of solid muscle), the constant excuse-making and/or blaming other people or circumstances when he loses, making asinine statements like "Not 1, Not 2, Not 3..." and "That one right there made me the GOAT", etc., etc.

Fact is James is not a very likeable guy. He's rubbed a huge chunk of the NBA community the wrong way, and put a target on his back ... so that's why his game is scrutinized much more than other guys who have been compared to Jordan over the years. Plus, if we're being honest, there's a ton of annoying ass LeBron fans out there as well.

That's about the best way I can sum up why LeBron takes so much heat... and IMO it's well deserved heat that he brought on himself.

But I digress...

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Kindly remind me who started this thread... a Jordan fan "or" a LeBron fan?

Neither

 

[trojanfan12]

I never said "no one said", fool... I simply said it as a matter-of-fact.

So LeBron has the longevity edge. Wonderful!

Jordan has the edge in everything else.

Next.

lol

No, you didn't.

Nice self own.

 

[trojanfan12]

Well, seeing as you have responded to well over 100 of my posts, I'd say that you care, for one. Now, you could define it as some other lame as bullshit as I know you will, but, well, this is your life. This right here. 142,600 posts, dude. The only people who have time for that have no social life. This is the extent of your socializing. You can't hack the real world so you live life through an internet bubble. You definitely care how people respond to you in here the same as someone would at a dinner party. So, go ahead, try to cover up, but know in advance, you aren't fooling me.

So, someone who has over 142,600 posts has no life?

What about someone who knows how many of his posts another poster has responded to?

 

[trojanfan12]

Well LeBron hasn't done himself any favors over the years with the debacle known as "The Decision", the non-stop crying and whining to the refs about fouls (for a guy who plays 38 min/g over his career and gets whistled for just 1.5 on average when we all know he commits more than that in just the first Quarter alone), the ridiculous flopping and flailing antics (for a guy who is 6'8 and 250+ pounds of solid muscle), the constant excuse-making and/or blaming other people or circumstances when he loses, making asinine statements like "Not 1, Not 2, Not 3..." and "That one right there made me the GOAT", etc., etc.

Fact is James is not a very likeable guy. He's rubbed a huge chunk of the NBA community the wrong way, and put a target on his back ... so that's why his game is scrutinized much more than other guys who have been compared to Jordan over the years. Plus, if we're being honest, there's a ton of annoying ass LeBron fans out there as well.

That's about the best way I can sum up why LeBron takes so much heat... and IMO it's well deserved heat that he brought on himself.

But I digress...

And yet, none of this has anything to do with basketball.

But since you want to go there...what about MJ's gambling that likely got his father killed? What about his poor treatment of teammates? Cheating on his wife? Inviting someone to his Hall of Fame ceremony so he could publicly embarrass them? Quitting basketball for 2 years so he could show everyone what a shitty baseball player he was? How about his treatment of Jerry Krause who was responsible for getting him the players and coach that he needed to win those titles?

Sounds like a real stand up guy.

If social media existed in MJ's day, like it does today...folks would have far different opinions on the kind of person MJ was than they do now.

 

[rmilia1]

And yet, none of this has anything to do with basketball.

But since you want to go there...what about MJ's gambling that likely got his father killed? What about his poor treatment of teammates? Cheating on his wife? Inviting someone to his Hall of Fame ceremony so he could publicly embarrass them? Quitting basketball for 2 years so he could show everyone what a shitty baseball player he was? How about his treatment of Jerry Krause who was responsible for getting him the players and coach that he needed to win those titles?

Sounds like a real stand up guy.

If social media existed in MJ's day, like it does today...folks would have far different opinions on the kind of person MJ was than they do now.

I still don't think MJ quit to play baseball

I think it's pretty obvious at this point, given what we know, that he was told he was going to be suspended until the FBI investigation into his Dad's death was done ( and MJs potential involvement )

You'd have to be pretty blind to not see it that way especially given he was back within weeks of the investigation wrapping up and it becoming clear there wouldn't be anything pointing to him as rl responsible

Ots an interesting thought experiment to imagine what MJs legacy would look like if he had played in today's age of 24/7 nees and social media for sure

 

[trojanfan12]

I still don't think MJ quit to play baseball

I think it's pretty obvious at this point, given what we know, that he was told he was going to be suspended until the FBI investigation into his Dad's death was done ( and MJs potential involvement )

You'd have to be pretty blind to not see it that way especially given he was back within weeks of the investigation wrapping up and it becoming clear there wouldn't be anything pointing to him as rl responsible

Ots an interesting thought experiment to imagine what MJs legacy would look like if he had played in today's age of 24/7 nees and social media for sure

I agree...but, to my knowledge, no real proof that it was because of him has ever been released.

A lot of circumstantial evidence exists though.

 

[rmilia1]

I agree...but, to my knowledge, no real proof that it was because of him has ever been released.

A lot of circumstantial evidence exists though.

I would imagine anyone who accrual knows the deal would be taking that to their grave

 

[PolarVortex]

You spin a good yarn there. Why do you let me get under your skin like this?

The only thing under my skin is finely tuned muscular mass and skeletal finesse.

 

[PolarVortex]

Since you don't follow the game why are you, just to bitch about things?

Magic wasn't a point guard. MJ wasn't a shooting guard. Now that's comedy. Was Larry Bird a point guard in your world?

A power forward that leads your team in assists every year? He didn't play the position like a traditional power forward up to that point in NBA history. He changed the way the position is played. It's only called 'power forward' for convenience's sake now days but the way it is played is nothing like it was played 50 years ago. Glad to help

 

[Stakesarehigh]

A power forward that leads your team in assists every year? He didn't play the position like a traditional power forward up to that point in NBA history. He changed the way the position is played. It's only called 'power forward' for convenience's sake now days but the way it is played is nothing like it was played 50 years ago. Glad to help

Eh, most 4s were still very much lucky to get 3 assists a game well after Birds prime.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

PER by age?? Eh... ok.

Lebron was a major disadvantage coming in at 18, 19, 20 yrs old compared to MJ who was 21. I think it’s important to set proper context, and how impressive Lebron was so early.

LeBron is up there with Jordan in the Advance Metric department, no question; however this is just one (1) facet/category.

Indeed. I never said it’s everything. Insecure much?

 

[MAGA2024]

And yet, none of this has anything to do with basketball.

But since you want to go there...what about MJ's gambling that likely got his father killed? What about his poor treatment of teammates? Cheating on his wife? Inviting someone to his Hall of Fame ceremony so he could publicly embarrass them? Quitting basketball for 2 years so he could show everyone what a shitty baseball player he was? How about his treatment of Jerry Krause who was responsible for getting him the players and coach that he needed to win those titles?

Sounds like a real stand up guy.

If social media existed in MJ's day, like it does today...folks would have far different opinions on the kind of person MJ was than they do now.

Well actually it does have to do with basketball. The flopping and crying/whining about fouls has absolutely benefitted him "on the court" over the years, with soooooooooooooo many questionable/borderline calls going his/his team's way... and sorry, but when you go on stage and brag/boast about "how easy" it's going to be to win "Not 5, Not 6, Not 7"... AND THEN go out and humiliate yourself in the Finals, you clearly DESERVE any/all criticism that comes your way. Furthermore when you publicly declare YOURSELF to be the greatest of all-time (lol) then you BETTER have a flawless resume, or else you will be scrutinized and critiqued more than any other player.

If LeBron and his fanboys think this is unfair, too bad. He brought it on himself with his own actions AND his own big mouth.

As for Jordan... unless you have legit evidence to suggest that Jordan's gambling led to his father's death you really ought to avoid spreading that narrative.

Otherwise you are correct that Jordan wasn't perfect... and if social media existed back in his day he'd surely face much more scrutiny.

But SM wasn't around back then. Such is life. As noted, LeBron made his own bed with HIS OWN big mouth. It is what it is.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

Well actually it does have to do with basketball. The flopping and crying/whining about fouls has absolutely benefitted him "on the court" over the years, with soooooooooooooo many questionable/borderline calls going his/his team's way... and sorry, but when you go on stage and brag/boast about "how easy" it's going to be to win "Not 5, Not 6, Not 7"... AND THEN go out and humiliate yourself in the Finals, you clearly DESERVE any/all criticism that comes your way. Furthermore when you publicly declare YOURSELF to be the greatest of all-time (lol) then you BETTER have a flawless resume, or else you will be scrutinized and critiqued more than any other player.

If LeBron and his fanboys think this is unfair, too bad. He brought it on himself with his own actions AND his own big mouth.

As for Jordan... unless you have legit evidence to suggest that Jordan's gambling led to his father's death you really ought to avoid spreading that narrative.

Otherwise you are correct that Jordan wasn't perfect... and if social media existed back in his day he'd surely face much more scrutiny.

But SM wasn't around back then. Such is life. As noted, LeBron made his own bed with HIS OWN big mouth. It is what it is.

The irony being MJ averaged more free throw attempts per game than Lebron.

 

[MAGA2024]

Lebron was a major disadvantage coming in at 18, 19, 20 yrs old compared to MJ who was 21. I think it’s important to set proper context, and how impressive Lebron was so early.

Indeed. I never said it’s everything. Insecure much?

Major disadvantage? How so? LeBron "chose" to enter the NBA straight from HS, he wasn't forced.

By the same token are LeBron fans going to concede that the ONLY reason LeBron is the all-time leader in Points Scored is because he skipped college, unlike Jabbar and Malone? Of course they won't because that means LeBron would currently be #3 on the list of most "career" Points scored and thus, his legacy wouldn't be as impressive.

Longevity works both ways. You (in general NOT you specifically) can't give LeBron credit for his "stats" as a 40 year old, for example, and then turn around and use his age against him when he gets bounced out of the first round by a lower seed... yet that's precisely what LeBron fans do.

All that matters is the facts... and the fact is Jordan accomplished more than LeBron in half the time (save for "longevity" stats, which plenty of other players also have on MJ.