Redskins are considering tagging Kirk for a trade

[Davis_Mike]

Insanity. Or Russian roulette. That is what tagging Cousins would be. For a minimal chance at a better return than a comp 3rd round pick while risking cap solvency for possibly the rest of the 2018 league year.

Cousins could just wait to sign the tag right before the start of the season. He gets paid to be the highest paid backup for the season & can choose his destination 2019. That won't cause any issue in the locker room...

And if you are thinking there won't be any teams able to sign him if the tag is rescinded in July, you would be wrong. And the Redskins would get nothing in compensation while not having the ability to sign any free agents during that time.

Yep, sounds like a winning strategy.

 

[Rowdy]

I’ll bet it happens and they get more than they would if it were a comp and if that’s the case, then more power too them, also hate to say it, but fuck Kirk! Still wish he were our qb, but he’s not. HTTR

 

[Rowdy]

He will sign for 34 immediately like he has every year

 

[Rowdy]

So if your cards are looking to get him be prepared to fork out a lot of money and a pick or picks/ player

 

[Breed]

@Sharkinva , @Stymietee , @gkekoa , @Sportster 72 , @j_y19 , @coach_spurrier_1 , @VTSparks , @RedskinzDan , @reptec101 , @chillerdab , @countryroads316 , @deanpet21 , @Breed , @Ritzarmy, @skinsdad62, @skinz2winz , @skinzfan

For any and all Skins posters that are in favor of the tag and trade idea, imagine you are the Washington Redskins GM (congrats!) and look at this scenario and tell me what you would do.

Tag and Trade Scenario:
Being the brilliant GM that you are, you tag Cousins on February 20. Kirk signs it to prevent the team from rescinding it later. Your wildest dreams come true and the Browns offer the 4th overall pick and the Cardinals and Jets are offering a 2nd rounder. Naturally, all offers are contingent on KC signing a LTD. KC vetoes the trade offers by refusing to sign a LTD with any of those teams. Cousins tells the Skins GM (you) that he wants to be traded to Denver and that is the only team he will sign a LTD with. However, Denver knows that too, so when you call, Elway only offers a 4th rd pick in 2019. You have 18 days until the FA tampering period opens on March 12 and FA opens 2 days later.

Keep in mind, since you tagged KC, these real-world constraints apply:
--You can't rescind the tag b/c Cousins has already signed it.
--Until you trade Cousins, you have basically zero cap space.
--Until you get cap space, you can't resign or sign FAs making much more than the minimum.
--If you trade Cousins, you'll no longer receive the 3rd rd comp pick you likely had coming in 2019.
--Until you trade KC, you'll have to restructure deals and/or cut players just to sign your draft picks.

YOU are the Washington GM. What do you do now?

I do the same thing I did when my youngest knothead, she was about 12 at the time, and her friend, also 12, walked in the front door coming home from school as I was wrapping the body of my knothead's mother in heavy duty plastic. To which my knothead asked....What are you doing, daddy?

 

[chillerdab]

KC is the best QB since Brees to hit the market.

No team is going to pay KC 35million and give up draft picks for this upcoming season just to talk to him. Nobody would do that Drew Brees either.

We won’t end up tagging KC though...because not even Bruce Allen can be that stupid.

I agree: no team will give up $35M and picks to negotiate with him. KC won't demand $35M from his new team, either.

He'll sign the tender, get the "OK" to negotiate with other teams, and when a deal is struck, the new team will send over some picks to the skins.

Hypothetically, of course.

 

[chillerdab]

Insanity. Or Russian roulette. That is what tagging Cousins would be. For a minimal chance at a better return than a comp 3rd round pick while risking cap solvency for possibly the rest of the 2018 league year.

Cousins could just wait to sign the tag right before the start of the season. He gets paid to be the highest paid backup for the season & can choose his destination 2019. That won't cause any issue in the locker room...

And if you are thinking there won't be any teams able to sign him if the tag is rescinded in July, you would be wrong. And the Redskins would get nothing in compensation while not having the ability to sign any free agents during that time.

Yep, sounds like a winning strategy.

What kind of magical thinking is this?

If KC waits to sign the tag until right before the season starts, and is a $35M backup for a year, how likely is it that he has his pick of destinations NEXT year? Isn't this "the greatest qb draft of the past 20 years?"

Sitting on the bench, turning 30, not playing at all, and expecting a huge contract NEXT offseason?

Kooky talk.

 

[Sharkinva]

I agree: no team will give up $35M and picks to negotiate with him. KC won't demand $35M from his new team, either.

He'll sign the tender, get the "OK" to negotiate with other teams, and when a deal is struck, the new team will send over some picks to the skins.

Hypothetically, of course.

All well and good, but there is really no reason for him to sign the tender. As I mentioned elsewhere, the only way Washington can afford to play hard ball is to rework multiple key Redskins. In effect asking players currently under contract to renegotiate their contracts for the express purpose of allowing the Redskins to force Kirk into playing ball. It would set a bad vibe.

 

[chillerdab]

And around and around and around we go.

There is no reason for him to NOT sign the tender.

If he does NOT sign the tender:

he does not get paid
he does not play
he does not go to another team

It's that simple.

 

[Sharkinva]

What kind of magical thinking is this?

If KC waits to sign the tag until right before the season starts, and is a $35M backup for a year, how likely is it that he has his pick of destinations NEXT year? Isn't this "the greatest qb draft of the past 20 years?"

Sitting on the bench, turning 30, not playing at all, and expecting a huge contract NEXT offseason?

Kooky talk.

Again... if we have $35M tied up in Kirk, and $20M tied up in Smith... how are they supposed to sign

1. Any of the Redskins pending free Agents
2. Free Agents from other teams
3. Draft picks

 

[Sharkinva]

And around and around and around we go.

There is no reason for him to NOT sign the tender.

If he does NOT sign the tender:

he does not get paid
he does not play
he does not go to another team

It's that simple.

If he doesnt sign, The Redskins cant afford to hold his rights and make any other moves. It will be seen as a petty childish move by Bruce. I would not be shocked to see Kirk and his agent file a grievance either. As the tag was meant as a way for teams to retain players they want to keep OR get compensation for players should they lose them.

The Skins have no intention of keeping Cousins.

 

[chillerdab]

NFL Salary Cap Space | Over The Cap

According to this website, they have $48M in space.

That's plenty, without your made up list of restructured contracts you are trying to pawn off as factual.

Additionally, and perhaps most importantly, the Redskins will find a partner to trade KC to, recoup some draft picks, and sign a few players.

See. I can pretend I know what's going to happen too.

 

[chillerdab]

Business decision. Not a childish move.

One trick pony.

Obj likes to facepalm.

That's awesome.

Facepalm this one too, chachi!

 

[Sharkinva]

NFL Salary Cap Space | Over The Cap

According to this website, they have $48M in space.

That's plenty, without your made up list of restructured contracts you are trying to pawn off as factual.

Additionally, and perhaps most importantly, the Redskins will find a partner to trade KC to, recoup some draft picks, and sign a few players.

See. I can pretend I know what's going to happen too.

$48M does not count Smiths contract or the tag on Cousins..

NOw stick with me.. this involves math.

$17M for Smith (assuming we gave him no new money in year one
$35M to tag Cousins
$52M

So in effect JUST to tag Cousins, we would in effect be $4M OVER the cap.

 

[chillerdab]

It also doesn't include however much the salary cap will go up, and who the redskins release (DHall, etc), and other possible reworked contracts that have already happened. Like Mason Foster.

Why is this so hard for you, sharkinva? Why?

Oh! I remember: one trick pony.

I already answered why your math is incorrect on something like 1029310298301298310 previous posts.

 

[Sharkinva]

It also doesn't include however much the salary cap will go up, and who the redskins release (DHall, etc), and other possible reworked contracts that have already happened. Like Mason Foster.

Why is this so hard for you, sharkinva? Why?

Oh! I remember: one trick pony.

I already answered why your math is incorrect on something like 1029310298301298310 previous posts.

Dude.. YOU posted the link. And the numbers for over the cap DO include the projected cap number for 2018.

The Cap for 2017 was $168M

OTC is using a projected $178M for the 2018 cap. So lets say it goes up a bit more... to $182M

To tag Cousins and make the trad for smith.. giving smith NO new money... would still put us at or over the cap. So we tag Cousins, he doesnt sign.. we cant sign a single free agent... period. Game over....

But Bruce won.

 

[Ojb81]

Business decision. Not a childish move.

One trick pony.

Obj likes to facepalm.

That's awesome.

Facepalm this one too, chachi!

Well, your posts are utter nonsense, what rating should I give?

 

[Stymietee]

Unless it has been signed. A signed tender is not a tender. It is a contract.

Signed or not the CBA specifically states the Tag designations can be rescinded at any time. However, to be fair, would you post a link that says they can't, or direct me to that part of the CBA that says it can't be done after a player signs the tag. Thanks.

 

[Sharkinva]

You guys must have known that I would do the necessary research, sooo, This is what you all are referring to that relates to signing a FT tender/ designation. Section 2 covers both Nonexclusive Franchise Tender and the Exclusive Franchise Tender.


(c) If a player subject to a Franchise Player designation accepts the Required Tender, the resulting Player Contract shall be fully guaranteed if the player’s contract is terminated because of lack of comparative skill; as a result of an injury sustained in the performance of his services under his Player Contract; and/or due to a Club’s determination to create Room for Salary Cap purposes. For purposes of this Subsection only, any contract termination due to the failure of the player to establish or maintain his excellent physical condition will be subject to review of a neutral physician appointed by the parties, whose physical findings will be conclusive in any arbitration proceeding relating to the physical condition of the player at the time of the exam, provided that such exam takes place within twenty (20) days of the contract termination.

(d) Any of the Required Tenders set forth in this Section 2 may be withdrawn at any time, but if such Tender is withdrawn, the player immediately becomes an Unrestricted Free Agent and thereafter is completely free to negotiate and sign a Player Contract with any Club, and any Club shall be completely free to negotiate and sign a Player Contract with any such player, without any penalty or restriction, including, but not limited to, Draft Choice Compensation between Clubs or First Refusal Rights of any kind, or any signing period.

....And here's the section that covers, Section 3. Transition Player Designations:

(a) Any Club that designates a Transition Player shall be deemed on the first day of the League Year following the expiration of the player’s last contract to have automatically tendered the player a one year NFL Player Contract for (A) the Cap Percentage Average of the ten largest Prior Year Salaries for players at the position (within the categories set forth in Section 7(a) below) at which the Transition Player participated in the most plays during the prior League Year, which Average shall be calculated using the methodology as in Section 2(a)(i)(A) above; or (B) 120% of his Prior Year Salary, whichever is greater. The Tender may be withdrawn at any time, but if such Tender is withdrawn, the player immediately becomes an Unrestricted Free Agent and thereafter is completely free to negotiate and sign a Player Contract with any Club, and any Club shall be completely free to negotiate and sign a Player Contract with such player, without any penalty or restriction, including, but not limited to, Draft Choice Compensation between Clubs or First Refusal Rights of any kind, or any signing period. For purposes of this Subsection, the “Transition Tag” for any League Year is the average of the ten largest Prior Year Salaries for players at that position (e.g., the Transition Tag for the 2010 League Year equals the average of the ten largest Salaries for the 2009 League Year for players at that position).


BTW: Here's the link to the CBA. If any of you who are still claiming that once the tag is signed it cannot be withdrawn can find anything that covers it, please do and repost it.

[PDF]
COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AGREEMENT - Microsoft
https://nflpaweb.blob.core.windows.net/media/Default/PDFs/2011 CBA...

Signed or not the CBA specifically states the Tag designations can be rescinded at any time. However, to be fair, would you post a link that says they can't, or direct me to that part of the CBA that says it can't be done after a player signs the tag. Thanks.

The section in YOUR post that I have highlighted in red means simply. Once Cousins signs it, it becomes guaranteed. The team cant decide to cut him to save cap space. The only way to off that money once he signs the tender is to trade him to another team or if he decides to retire rather than play for the Redskins.

 

[Stymietee]

Agreed. Elway is gonna try to play hardball in any trade talks. Remember how contentious the Von Miller contract talks were (smh)? I don't really get all the love Elway from the media and others. Sure, he had 2 SB years, but both years he had Manning. In the years before and after Manning, Elway isn't nearly as good a GM. Strange, how that works eh?

Nope. As @gkekoa said, once the tender offer is signed (accepted), it's no longer a tender, it's a fully guaranteed 1 year contract. Tenders can be rescinded, not contracts.

Under Section 2, which covers the franchise tenders:
(c) If a player subject to a Franchise Player designation accepts the Required Tender, the resulting Player Contract shall be fully guaranteed if the player’s contract is terminated because of lack of comparative skill; as a result of an injury sustained in the performance of his services under his Player Contract; and/or due to a Club’s determination to create Room for Salary Cap purposes.

Notice that it says once the tender has been accepted, it becomes a "player contract." Tenders can be rescinded at any time b/c they haven't been signed. Once the tender is signed, it becomes a contract, so the tender rescission provisions do not apply. And if you don't believe my interpretation:

When those new CBA rules hit, Florio at PFT, a labor lawyer, broke it down in layman's terms. "The amount of the franchise tender becomes fully guaranteed once the player signs it. ...The risk is that the franchise tag can be withdrawn, at any time, before it has been signed. 10 things to know about the franchise tag

"It can't be rescinded once it's signed." Everything you need to know about the NFL's 2017 franchise tag

What to know about NFL franchise tag designations

Think about it, the only franchise tenders that have been rescinded were all in cases where the player had not signed the tag. Corey Simon, Jeremiah Trotter, and Josh Norman.

With his track record, it looks like Allen was born to run the Cleveland Browns!

It becomes fully guaranteed in July, NOT when the player signs it.