POLL Is Justin Verlander a Future Hall of Famer?

[broncosmitty]

@SlinkyRedfoot

I'd like to hear your input on this side discussion.

 

[dougplayer]

Did any one make slanty eyes at Ichiro?? He had it easy in those days

 

[Yo Tee]

yes it does. 2B historically isn't a strong hitting position, 1B/LF/RF is. Just because there's a few strong hitting 2B right now doesn't change that. Also, I find it funny you're harping on Kinsler for having a subpar year when Zobrist was even worse in 2017 (.232/.318/.375, 79 OPS+).

I mean, take a look at the top hitters at every position.

Second Base JAWS Leaders | Baseball-Reference.com

First Base JAWS Leaders | Baseball-Reference.com

There's 343 players at 1B with an OPS+ of 100 or higher (this isn't accounting for playing time and some of those guys have more games at other positions). There's only 122 at 2B. Kinsler's 109 OPS+ would make him one of the better hitting 2nd basemen.

Okay, the point is, no matter who you compare him to, Ian Kinsler should not be near the discussion for the hall of fame. Maybe in 5-6 years, but not right now.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

@SlinkyRedfoot

I'd like to hear your input on this side discussion.

I'm guessing he'll make it?

I looked at his numbers compared to Mussina (who I think should be in). Verlander is behind to varying degrees in Wins, IP and Ks, but Mussina also has five years that Verlander doesn't. Their career ERAs are close, and their career ERA+s are nearly identical. They both started their careers at 22, so if Verlander can pitch another five, he could pass Mussina in some or all of those categories.

Verlander has some pretty serious kickers over Mussina though, being two Cy Youngs, an MVP and now a ring.

What is fascinating me right now about Verlander is that in the last two years, he's two different pitchers in the first and second halves.

1st halves 2016 & 2017 combined, he's 13-12 with a 4.38 ERA.

2nd halves 2016 & 2017 combined, he's 18-5 with a 1.96 ERA.

If he can figure out a way to have a better first half, he could very possibly win more CYs and cement his case.

The guy is impressive as hell. I still think he's a fag, though.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

I get it, she's a model dancing around almost naked. But damn she is a shitty dancer. Kinda ruins it for me.

Let the record show that the gentleman from San Francisco takes umbrage with the dancing ability of a hot bitch in a bikini with enormous tits.

 

[The Q]

Ichiro's a borderline HOFer (IMO) though I'd put him in because of his pre-MLB work and because he didn't play in the majors until he was 27. One of the most overrated hitters of all-time, his baserunning and defense are what make him a HOFer.

if you count his pre-work, guys like Sadaharu Oh should be in.

 

[The Q]

I am on the fence with Verlander to be a HOF... on one hand his ERA and WHIP are just not HOF caliber... but if you ask anyone to name the top 5 SP of the past 10-15 years, everyone will put him in their list...

What hurts his stats is that he is one of the rare pitchers who average over 200 innings per season...

They're high for the overall HOF. But how is his ERA+ vs the HOF?

He's played during some big offense eras.

 

[msgkings322]

Let the record show that the gentleman from San Francisco takes umbrage with the dancing ability of a hot bitch in a bikini with enormous tits.

What can I say, I got high standards...

 

[broncosmitty]

I'm guessing he'll make it?

I looked at his numbers compared to Mussina (who I think should be in). Verlander is behind to varying degrees in Wins, IP and Ks, but Mussina also has five years that Verlander doesn't. Their career ERAs are close, and their career ERA+s are nearly identical. They both started their careers at 22, so if Verlander can pitch another five, he could pass Mussina in some or all of those categories.

Verlander has some pretty serious kickers over Mussina though, being two Cy Youngs, an MVP and now a ring.

What is fascinating me right now about Verlander is that in the last two years, he's two different pitchers in the first and second halves.

1st halves 2016 & 2017 combined, he's 13-12 with a 4.38 ERA.

2nd halves 2016 & 2017 combined, he's 18-5 with a 1.96 ERA.

If he can figure out a way to have a better first half, he could very possibly win more CYs and cement his case.

The guy is impressive as hell. I still think he's a fag, though.

The side conversation my friend.

JV's Achilles heal has always been right at the start. More so game to game(1st is definitely his worst inning careerwise) but season to season too.

The Kinsler portion of the discussion I figured you'd get a kick out of. Nobody has even mentioned his leadoff homers...

 

[broncosmitty]

I'm guessing he'll make it?

I looked at his numbers compared to Mussina (who I think should be in). Verlander is behind to varying degrees in Wins, IP and Ks, but Mussina also has five years that Verlander doesn't. Their career ERAs are close, and their career ERA+s are nearly identical. They both started their careers at 22, so if Verlander can pitch another five, he could pass Mussina in some or all of those categories.

Verlander has some pretty serious kickers over Mussina though, being two Cy Youngs, an MVP and now a ring.

What is fascinating me right now about Verlander is that in the last two years, he's two different pitchers in the first and second halves.

1st halves 2016 & 2017 combined, he's 13-12 with a 4.38 ERA.

2nd halves 2016 & 2017 combined, he's 18-5 with a 1.96 ERA.

If he can figure out a way to have a better first half, he could very possibly win more CYs and cement his case.

The guy is impressive as hell. I still think he's a fag, though.

On the career ERA thing...

I think he's been under something like 8 out of the last 9 or something. (I'm not looking right now). A couple shit season really did a number on that number.

And I'll go the line item veto route if need be to paint a better picture. I'm also prepared to do the same for Klubers 2017 season. Toss the outliers, get the better picture.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

The side conversation my friend.

JV's Achilles heal has always been right at the start. More so game to game(1st is definitely his worst inning careerwise) but season to season too.

The Kinsler portion of the discussion I figured you'd get a kick out of. Nobody has even mentioned his leadoff homers...

Oh. Kinsler? He's definitely going into the HOF. Just as soon as he buys a ticket and walks through the fucking turnstile. Maybe he and Kipnis can go together.

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

On the career ERA thing...

I think he's been under something like 8 out of the last 9 or something. (I'm not looking right now). A couple shit season really did a number on that number.

You could say the same about Mussina. His ERAs in '04, '05 and '07 were shit.

Just so I'm clear, we're on the same side of this Verlander thing, right? He should be in, right?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

They're high for the overall HOF. But how is his ERA+ vs the HOF?

He's played during some big offense eras.

I agree about context... he is much better than his numbers... just saying his numbers are not HOF caliber IMO... Which I do think hurts his chances...

Not to mention, he is known to be a big game pitcher, and is 0-4, in 5 games started,with a 5.67 ERA in the WS... Kind of difficult to give him the big game pitcher bonus when he has failed in the biggest games of his career...

 

[The Q]

I agree about context... he is much better than his numbers... just saying his numbers are not HOF caliber IMO... Which I do think hurts his chances...

Not to mention, he is known to be a big game pitcher, and is 0-4, in 5 games started,with a 5.67 ERA in the WS... Kind of difficult to give him the big game pitcher bonus when he has failed in the biggest games of his career...

I agree. He's a fascinating case.

Look at BR.

Hall of Fame Statistics

Black Ink
Pitching - 50 (27), Average HOFer ≈ 40
Gray Ink
Pitching - 174 (66), Average HOFer ≈ 185
Hall of Fame Monitor
Pitching - 132 (54), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards
Pitching - 40 (75), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS
Starting Pitcher (73rd):
56.6 career WAR / 43.5 7yr-peak WAR / 50.0 JAWS
Average HOF P (out of 62):
73.9 career WAR / 50.3 7yr-peak WAR / 62.1 JAWS

Hes abvoe average in a lot of these areas, but in the JAWs stuff he clearly falls short.

A fascinating discussion at least. But he really needs 3 more 2016s to really make it a slam dunk, and it his age I doubt he has that in him.

And yes winning a WS game would help.

 

[dougplayer]

I'm guessing he'll make it?

I looked at his numbers compared to Mussina (who I think should be in). Verlander is behind to varying degrees in Wins, IP and Ks, but Mussina also has five years that Verlander doesn't. Their career ERAs are close, and their career ERA+s are nearly identical. They both started their careers at 22, so if Verlander can pitch another five, he could pass Mussina in some or all of those categories.

Verlander has some pretty serious kickers over Mussina though, being two Cy Youngs, an MVP and now a ring.

What is fascinating me right now about Verlander is that in the last two years, he's two different pitchers in the first and second halves.

1st halves 2016 & 2017 combined, he's 13-12 with a 4.38 ERA.

2nd halves 2016 & 2017 combined, he's 18-5 with a 1.96 ERA.

If he can figure out a way to have a better first half, he could very possibly win more CYs and cement his case.

The guy is impressive as hell. I still think he's a fag, though.

But. But. You like fags...you and iffy butt fuck each other. Plus. You didn't figure in heart. Verlander has it in buckets. Kluber not so much

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

But. But. You like fags...you and iffy butt fuck each other. Plus. You didn't figure in heart. Verlander has it in buckets. Kluber not so much

You do realize that Verlander is not a Tiger anymore, right?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I agree. He's a fascinating case.

Look at BR.

Hall of Fame Statistics

Black Ink
Pitching - 50 (27), Average HOFer ≈ 40
Gray Ink
Pitching - 174 (66), Average HOFer ≈ 185
Hall of Fame Monitor
Pitching - 132 (54), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards
Pitching - 40 (75), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS
Starting Pitcher (73rd):
56.6 career WAR / 43.5 7yr-peak WAR / 50.0 JAWS
Average HOF P (out of 62):
73.9 career WAR / 50.3 7yr-peak WAR / 62.1 JAWS

Hes abvoe average in a lot of these areas, but in the JAWs stuff he clearly falls short.

A fascinating discussion at least. But he really needs 3 more 2016s to really make it a slam dunk, and it his age I doubt he has that in him.

And yes winning a WS game would help.

Yea, he has only pitched for 13 seasons... I know modern day pitching needs to be evaluated differently...

Not to be that guy... but I find it funny the support Verlander is getting, while people thing Johan Santana is on the wrong side of the fence...

I will say this, if Santana is not a HOF(not saying he wont be) then in no way would I expect verlander to be... Of course verlander has some more seasons to improve his case...

As of today, If he retired and never pitched again, I would not want him in the HOF...

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

Yea, he has only pitched for 13 seasons... I know modern day pitching needs to be evaluated differently...

Not to be that guy... but I find it funny the support Verlander is getting, while people thing Johan Santana is on the wrong side of the fence...

I will say this, if Santana is not a HOF(not saying he wont be) then in no way would I expect verlander to be... Of course verlander has some more seasons to improve his case...

As of today, If he retired and never pitched again, I would not want him in the HOF...

Are you saying that Santana's career was that much better than Verlander's thus far?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Are you saying that Santana's career was that much better than Verlander's thus far?

If verlander never played another game, then I would 100% consider Santana the better pitcher career... probably by a good margin too...

 

[SlinkyRedfoot]

If verlander never played another game, then I would 100% consider Santana the better pitcher career... probably by a good margin too...

Weird.