Would Broncos trade Miller ?

[sonnyblack65]

Just curious. Does Manster have a little white poodle?

Not sure but he does buy a lot of baby oil?

 

[Oldschool739]

Sorry if you haven't caught on I am a numbers guy so I honestly love the FO work just as much as the work on the field. I love seeing the break down of contracts and how a team delegates their cap money throughout the roster and see how the top teams do it compared to the bottom teams in the league. You can quickly begin to see why some teams stay on top even with things being on a level playing field because they just know how to use their money better than other teams. You look at these teams that just continue to try and push the bucket down the road and see that year in and year out they struggle to stay competitive because they are having to change contracts left and right just to make this year work which jeopardizes future seasons and so on. So yeah I love the behind the scenes work just as much as what we see on the field as really how that is all done does effect the play on the field just as much as the work done on the practice field and in the film room.

Yea, I got that....I am not as I'm sure you're aware....I love the game, the biz side, not so much !!
I leave that to the guys getting paid for it, and take their reports....But I agree, that teams that work the cap well are the majority of successful teams....It bores me though !! I just want to see the team they put on the field and how they perform, coaches and players alike....

 

[Oldschool739]

Like I said it didn't take all that much time to google what I posted. So not really a big deal even with knowing Oldschool would just continue to respond with Memes. I spend a great deal of time doing research for work so I've got a pretty darn good system set up for looking up things very quickly and being able to speed read through information to find pertinent facts.

Facts ???? Didn't you hear about Columbine in your state ??? And the drive by Bronco kill, and Talib's, shoot a Bronco club party in Fl....Doesn't take any research or stats to recognize that of all things, mass child killings is the worst of the worst....But you need to understand how banter goes on a general board dude, this is not your buddy up Bronco board and when you dis another teams icon player, city, or fans, you're getting both barrels unleashed on you.....Toughen up, or shut up !!

 

[Oldschool739]

Sorry I will remember that from now on. All I did was show Oldschool how easy it is to actually view contract details of every single player in the NFL from multiple sites so you don't just have to lock onto one but can compare and contrast. He admitted that he doesn't understand contracts very well in the NFL but for a while continued to try and argue that he did.

And yes I put in a quick jab at you for getting after for me googling something that took me just a couple of minutes to find the information needed to clear up a disagreement. Again remember humor is allowed on this board.

No I said they are complex and no one understands them completely, and they bore me....A far cry from your interpretation....Get it right and you won't have to research it !!

 

[cdumler7]

No I said they are complex and no one understands them completely, and they bore me....A far cry from your interpretation....Get it right and you won't have to research it !!

Haha ok...then why is it that I can look at the numbers of Flacco's contract year by year and how they break it down from base salary, signing bonus, guaranteed money, work out bonus, other bonus, incentive clauses such as throwing 25 touchdowns gets you this much and so on? So if no one understands them then how do they get done and how do they find their way onto the internet on multiple sites? Just because you don't want to do the research doesn't mean you can just say "well they are too complicated." Doesn't work that way. You obviously don't understand the cap situation your own team is in and don't understand Flacco's cap hits over the next few years and how they make it very difficult to do anything but draft and hope those players work out.

 

[Uhsplit]

Not sure but he does buy a lot of baby oil?

Buddy, "It puts the lotion on it's back".
No mention of either baby oil or motor oil.

 

[Money]

Haha ok...then why is it that I can look at the numbers of Flacco's contract year by year and how they break it down from base salary, signing bonus, guaranteed money, work out bonus, other bonus, incentive clauses such as throwing 25 touchdowns gets you this much and so on? So if no one understands them then how do they get done and how do they find their way onto the internet on multiple sites? Just because you don't want to do the research doesn't mean you can just say "well they are too complicated." Doesn't work that way. You obviously don't understand the cap situation your own team is in and don't understand Flacco's cap hits over the next few years and how they make it very difficult to do anything but draft and hope those players work out.

This is where you go downhill. The Ravens are not in a bad cap situation. They are actually in the top 10 as far as available cap space. They had to dig out of a lot of dead money (Ray Rice, Haloti Ngata and Dennis Pitta in particular).

Edit: 11th...sorry.

 

[cdumler7]

This is where you go downhill. The Ravens are not in a bad cap situation. They are actually in the top 10 as far as available cap space. They had to dig out of a lot of dead money (Ray Rice, Haloti Ngata and Dennis Pitta in particular).

And see this is where you Ravens fans are so shortsighted when it comes to the cap and understand it is not just about money this year but it is about money 2 and 3 and even more years out. Yes right now the Ravens have $13 million in cap space. Honestly though not a lot separating them and being in the bottom 10. That is what happens when the NFL has a Cap Floor set up in the last CBA. Teams are required to spend or be penalized.

Now if you get the chance look at the Ravens next year. They have around $11.5 million depending how much the cap goes up. More importantly they have the 4th fewest dollars to spend right now moving forward. 3 years from now they are still bottom 10 again. On top of that they don't have a ton of contracts that they can cut that actually give them a ton of relief moving forward so that means if they want to find some cap money to actually sign any good players over the next couple of years it will have to be with once again like with Flacco pushing the money down the road.

So while the Ravens are not in the worst situation in the NFL they are no where near the best either when you begin to look 2 and 3 years out instead of just at this upcoming season.

 

[Money]

Haha ok...then why is it that I can look at the numbers of Flacco's contract year by year and how they break it down from base salary, signing bonus, guaranteed money, work out bonus, other bonus, incentive clauses such as throwing 25 touchdowns gets you this much and so on? So if no one understands them then how do they get done and how do they find their way onto the internet on multiple sites? Just because you don't want to do the research doesn't mean you can just say "well they are too complicated." Doesn't work that way. You obviously don't understand the cap situation your own team is in and don't understand Flacco's cap hits over the next few years and how they make it very difficult to do anything but draft and hope those players work out.

BTW...the Ravens have never, ever been a team that makes big splashes in free agency. They also have always been very picky about what big money players they choose to re-sign. Nothing has changed, except the fact that they have missed quite a bit in recent drafts and on a majority of the FA signings they have made. None of this has anything to do with Flacco's contract though.

 

[cdumler7]

BTW...the Ravens have never, ever been a team that makes big splashes in free agency. They also have always been very picky about what big money players they choose to re-sign. Nothing has changed, except the fact that they have missed quite a bit in recent drafts and on a majority of the FA signings they have made. None of this has anything to do with Flacco's contract though.

Flacco's contract plays into it very much when he is the biggest cap hit on the team and it isn't even close. In the past they could counter some bad draft picks or offer bigger contracts to veterans or sign more of their own when Flacco was on his rookie contract or a low cap hit. Now that relief is no longer available meaning they have to hit in the draft and have to have Flacco play better than what he has been lately in order for them to be a competitive team. We see this around the league even with some of the best QB's like Rodgers in while he is incredible as a QB they are a team that has sometimes struggled to have great depth. Same with the Saints and Brees. It is why stats have been done (I know how much you and OS hate stats) to show when one player is taken up so much of your cap it is hard to actually win Super Bowls. There is a certain cut off like at 12% or 14% or something like that that if you have a player that goes over that only 1 team in since the Cap came into place has actually won the Super Bowl and that was the Broncos this past year with Manning taking up that much of the cap.

 

[Money]

And see this is where you Ravens fans are so shortsighted when it comes to the cap and understand it is not just about money this year but it is about money 2 and 3 and even more years out. Yes right now the Ravens have $13 million in cap space. Honestly though not a lot separating them and being in the bottom 10. That is what happens when the NFL has a Cap Floor set up in the last CBA. Teams are required to spend or be penalized.

Now if you get the chance look at the Ravens next year. They have around $11.5 million depending how much the cap goes up. More importantly they have the 4th fewest dollars to spend right now moving forward. 3 years from now they are still bottom 10 again. On top of that they don't have a ton of contracts that they can cut that actually give them a ton of relief moving forward so that means if they want to find some cap money to actually sign any good players over the next couple of years it will have to be with once again like with Flacco pushing the money down the road.

So while the Ravens are not in the worst situation in the NFL they are no where near the best either when you begin to look 2 and 3 years out instead of just at this upcoming season.

What are you talking about? The cap is always a fluid situation. Contracts are restructured. Players are cut. Players are signed. If you are trying to look 2-3 years down the road and come to any conclusion about what situation a team will be in cap wise, then you are doing yourself a huge disservice.

BTW...I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but the Ravens' front office isn't made up of monkeys. It's actually made up of very intelligent people who know what they are doing.

 

[Money]

Flacco's contract plays into it very much when he is the biggest cap hit on the team and it isn't even close. In the past they could counter some bad draft picks or offer bigger contracts to veterans or sign more of their own when Flacco was on his rookie contract or a low cap hit. Now that relief is no longer available meaning they have to hit in the draft and have to have Flacco play better than what he has been lately in order for them to be a competitive team. We see this around the league even with some of the best QB's like Rodgers in while he is incredible as a QB they are a team that has sometimes struggled to have great depth. Same with the Saints and Brees. It is why stats have been done (I know how much you and OS hate stats) to show when one player is taken up so much of your cap it is hard to actually win Super Bowls. There is a certain cut off like at 12% or 14% or something like that that if you have a player that goes over that only 1 team in since the Cap came into place has actually won the Super Bowl and that was the Broncos this past year with Manning taking up that much of the cap.

You just don't get it dude. When have you seen a team just let a franchise QB walk? Do you think there was any shot in hell that Indy was letting Luck go. Any shot??? That SD wouldn't sign Rivers? That Dallas wouldn't sign Romo? That Atlanta wouldn't sign Ryan? No shot. No shot in hell. They would be morons if they let those guys go. When you see one team just let a franchise QB walk without having a viable replacement already in the fold...let me know.

 

[cdumler7]

What are you talking about? The cap is always a fluid situation. Contracts are restructured. Players are cut. Players are signed. If you are trying to look 2-3 years down the road and come to any conclusion about what situation a team will be in cap wise, then you are doing yourself a huge disservice.

BTW...I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but the Ravens' front office isn't made up of monkeys. It's actually made up of very intelligent people who know what they are doing.

Again this is why you and OS just don't exactly understand how teams look at the Cap. It is ok not everybody loves this side of football and digs into it any deeper than "does my team fit under the cap?" Yes teams are looking that far out because they need to know the type of cap space they will have plus the type of players coming up for contract. Such as the Broncos could have easily signed everybody and their dog this off season if they wanted knowing they have a ton of cap space over the next couple of years so they could easily push money down the road. At the same time they knew they had guys like Brandon Marshall, Von Miller, Emanuel Sanders, Bradley Roby, and others that they wanted to sign so signing all of these guys right now meant they would be losing future players that they really want to be a part of this franchise. So you look at the now but you also don't want to compromise the future.

And yes I understand the Ravens are not a bad FO. In fact they are one of the better ones that I respect highly. That doesn't mean a good FO is immune from sometimes finding them cap strapped. It happens to the best of them. And as you have already mentioned they haven't drafted well lately so that leads to not finding the type of cheap starters you need to put a competitive team on the field or at least one lacking any kind of quality depth meaning they have to pray no injuries happen which is unrealistic.

And yes I think the Ravens needed to hold onto Flacco. I think though they got caught in a very difficult situation where for the most part up to that playoff run he had played like an average QB. You can say he won in the playoffs but I can just as easily point to the dominating defense before that 2012 run. So then this guy goes out and has one of the better playoff runs by an individual player and they were stuck all of a sudden going from maybe having to pay this guy borderline top-10 money for the position to top of the position money while also transitioning with some of the veterans and a very tight cap that year. So that meant signing him to a big contract that they had to re-do just a few years in and continue to push to the idea that Flacco would continue to be a huge cap hit to the team. Doesn't mean they shouldn't have done it just that it meant they went from a very cheap QB that they could build around to now paying him top of the line money and hurting their ability to build quality depth.

 

[Money]

Again this is why you and OS just don't exactly understand how teams look at the Cap. It is ok not everybody loves this side of football and digs into it any deeper than "does my team fit under the cap?" Yes teams are looking that far out because they need to know the type of cap space they will have plus the type of players coming up for contract. Such as the Broncos could have easily signed everybody and their dog this off season if they wanted knowing they have a ton of cap space over the next couple of years so they could easily push money down the road. At the same time they knew they had guys like Brandon Marshall, Von Miller, Emanuel Sanders, Bradley Roby, and others that they wanted to sign so signing all of these guys right now meant they would be losing future players that they really want to be a part of this franchise. So you look at the now but you also don't want to compromise the future.

And yes I understand the Ravens are not a bad FO. In fact they are one of the better ones that I respect highly. That doesn't mean a good FO is immune from sometimes finding them cap strapped. It happens to the best of them. And as you have already mentioned they haven't drafted well lately so that leads to not finding the type of cheap starters you need to put a competitive team on the field or at least one lacking any kind of quality depth meaning they have to pray no injuries happen which is unrealistic.

And yes I think the Ravens needed to hold onto Flacco. I think though they got caught in a very difficult situation where for the most part up to that playoff run he had played like an average QB. You can say he won in the playoffs but I can just as easily point to the dominating defense before that 2012 run. So then this guy goes out and has one of the better playoff runs by an individual player and they were stuck all of a sudden going from maybe having to pay this guy borderline top-10 money for the position to top of the position money while also transitioning with some of the veterans and a very tight cap that year. So that meant signing him to a big contract that they had to re-do just a few years in and continue to push to the idea that Flacco would continue to be a huge cap hit to the team. Doesn't mean they shouldn't have done it just that it meant they went from a very cheap QB that they could build around to now paying him top of the line money and hurting their ability to build quality depth.

Do not begin to think that I don't understand the cap. I, in fact, understand it very well.

When you look now at a team's cap situation 2-3 years from now, you need to understand how much of that "book" number is guaranteed and how much is actually non-guaranteed base salary that players will never see. Dennis Pitta cap number for next year is $7.7 million. Dennis Pitta hasn't played a game in 2 years. Dennis Pitta won't be on the roster at $7.7 million next year. I promise you. He will be cut post-June 1 for a significant cap savings. Steve Smith won't be playing next year at a $4+ million cap figure. Again...I promise you. Ladarius Webb 100% will not be playing at a $7.5 mil price tag in 2017. There are several others.

I will also reiterate that their lack of depth has much more to do with the significant amount of misses in the draft and the few FAs they bring in than Flacco's contract.

 

[Money]

Again this is why you and OS just don't exactly understand how teams look at the Cap. It is ok not everybody loves this side of football and digs into it any deeper than "does my team fit under the cap?" Yes teams are looking that far out because they need to know the type of cap space they will have plus the type of players coming up for contract. Such as the Broncos could have easily signed everybody and their dog this off season if they wanted knowing they have a ton of cap space over the next couple of years so they could easily push money down the road. At the same time they knew they had guys like Brandon Marshall, Von Miller, Emanuel Sanders, Bradley Roby, and others that they wanted to sign so signing all of these guys right now meant they would be losing future players that they really want to be a part of this franchise. So you look at the now but you also don't want to compromise the future.

And yes I understand the Ravens are not a bad FO. In fact they are one of the better ones that I respect highly. That doesn't mean a good FO is immune from sometimes finding them cap strapped. It happens to the best of them. And as you have already mentioned they haven't drafted well lately so that leads to not finding the type of cheap starters you need to put a competitive team on the field or at least one lacking any kind of quality depth meaning they have to pray no injuries happen which is unrealistic.

And yes I think the Ravens needed to hold onto Flacco. I think though they got caught in a very difficult situation where for the most part up to that playoff run he had played like an average QB. You can say he won in the playoffs but I can just as easily point to the dominating defense before that 2012 run. So then this guy goes out and has one of the better playoff runs by an individual player and they were stuck all of a sudden going from maybe having to pay this guy borderline top-10 money for the position to top of the position money while also transitioning with some of the veterans and a very tight cap that year. So that meant signing him to a big contract that they had to re-do just a few years in and continue to push to the idea that Flacco would continue to be a huge cap hit to the team. Doesn't mean they shouldn't have done it just that it meant they went from a very cheap QB that they could build around to now paying him top of the line money and hurting their ability to build quality depth.

To add...yes, you are correct. Teams certainly are thinking 2-3 years down the road, but they obviously have a much greater grasp on what that picture looks like than what you can gather by googling Over the Cap and looking at what their 2017 and 2018 total number is and where that puts them on a list.

 

[cdumler7]

Do not begin to think that I don't understand the cap. I, in fact, understand it very well.

When you look now at a team's cap situation 2-3 years from now, you need to understand how much of that "book" number is guaranteed and how much is actually non-guaranteed base salary that players will never see. Dennis Pitta cap number for next year is $7.7 million. Dennis Pitta hasn't played a game in 2 years. Dennis Pitta won't be on the roster at $7.7 million next year. I promise you. He will be cut post-June 1 for a significant cap savings. Steve Smith won't be playing next year at a $4+ million cap figure. Again...I promise you. Ladarius Webb 100% will not be playing at a $7.5 mil price tag in 2017. There are several others.

I will also reiterate that their lack of depth has much more to do with the significant amount of misses in the draft and the few FAs they bring in than Flacco's contract.

I have never said Flacco's contract is the only deciding factor. Any team though that has a player making that much they are still part of the equation. Such as for the Broncos if they would have signed Osweiler to the deal that they last offered him that probably means we lose Anderson, Crick, Okung, Stephenson, can't re-sign Brandon Marshall, and a couple of other small moves to make up the difference in what we would have had to pay Osweiler. So is he worth losing all those players? Same can be said of Flacco in his $22-26 million cap hit of what other players is the team losing because of that type of money devoted to one player? Now obviously Franchise QB if you can find one they are worth it but it doesn't mean he doesn't cost you guys some players.

And see when you post these type of numbers it just shows me you haven't looked at the contracts of these players.

Dennis Pitta next year if cut has a dead money hit of $4.4 million if cut in 2017. So pre-June 1st cut the cap savings would only be $3.3 million not the $7.7 million you mention here. Even after June 1st you still only save $5.5 million with a $2.2 million dead money hit plus the same the year after that. Steve Smith doesn't even factor into being in the bottom 4 in the NFL for cap space next year because his contract runs out this upcoming season. So no cap savings to help you out there either. Ladarius Webb if they outright cut him only saves $5.5 million as you can't do a post-June cut because his contract runs out so the full dead money hit happens.

So all those contracts you mentioned while they can give you some relief don't give you a ton and cost your team some pretty decent dead money hits. Even with those cuts we are talking only about $14 million saved and that is not me even factoring in the fact that you have to replace those players on the team meaning the real cap savings are closer to just $12 million by cutting those 3 players which still puts you bottom ten in the league for cap space. Remember just because you cut a player doesn't mean you get their full cap hit in savings.

 

[cdumler7]

To add...yes, you are correct. Teams certainly are thinking 2-3 years down the road, but they obviously have a much greater grasp on what that picture looks like than what you can gather by googling Over the Cap and looking at what their 2017 and 2018 total number is and where that puts them on a list.

I'm looking beyond just at the overall numbers though and looking at the actual contracts on the team and what happens if you cut or try to re-do some of these contracts. Anyway you shake it the Ravens are very tight for the next at least 2-3 years and will need to have the draft pan out even more if they expect to compete year in and year out. They got themselves not only into some bad draft picks but into some bad contracts. Dennis Pitta, Lardarius Webb, Jimmy Smith, Justin Forsett, and depending how Suggs comes back from injury are just to name a few of the players that haven't really lived up to the billing since they got their big deal. Like I said it happens sometimes where you just get very unlucky and get stuck like the Ravens have lately. Doesn't mean the deals were bad when they signed them just means that they haven't worked out like many thought they would for one reason or another.

 

[Southieinnc]

BTW...I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but the Ravens' front office is made up of monkeys.

Ozzie?????

 

[Money]

And see when you post these type of numbers it just shows me you haven't looked at the contracts of these players.

Dennis Pitta next year if cut has a dead money hit of $4.4 million if cut in 2017. So pre-June 1st cut the cap savings would only be $3.3 million not the $7.7 million you mention here. Even after June 1st you still only save $5.5 million with a $2.2 million dead money hit plus the same the year after that. Steve Smith doesn't even factor into being in the bottom 4 in the NFL for cap space next year because his contract runs out this upcoming season. So no cap savings to help you out there either. Ladarius Webb if they outright cut him only saves $5.5 million as you can't do a post-June cut because his contract runs out so the full dead money hit happens.

I didn't say a $7.7 mil savings for Pitta and you are correct about Webb and Smith (I was a year off on both). My point is the same. That's $11 mil off the number you are looking at for Pitta and Webb. I doubt Doom plays under a $8.5 mil figure. They can easily get away from Wallace if necessary. Watson...Forsett...Arrington...add those up. You get the point.

 

[Money]

Ozzie?????

View attachment 137486

Inappropriate!!!


but pretty freaking funny...