Winners tonight: Minnesota and Charlotte

[Bolts]

It Butler doesn't re-sign it's a fail for the Wolves and if he does they'll be getting close to contending when he does, seems simple enough. I can't fault Wolves fans for getting excited about the real chance their team makes the playoffs since they haven't been there in a long time, Kings are a decade plus into their drought.

 

[mr.hockey4242]

Read my posts dude.

They are a 50 win team today. but, the next 2 years don't matter. 50 wins will get you a 2nd round exit at the hands of the Warriors. Congrats!

If I am The GM in Minnesoata, I am assembling a group that can can actually contend for a championship in 2020, when KAT and Wiggins are ready to roll. If Butler stays, they will be just that. If he leaves, well then, you are SOL. That is all I am saying.

You act like there is zero downside risk, when there is in fact plenty. 50 wins gets you nothing. Take it from me as a Wizards fan. My team tries to shortcut the process a few years ago and look where it landed them.

But then again, I have been admiring the 6ers rebuild for years while most people have been crushing them. If you aren't building to win a ring, you are doing it wrong. Minnesota has some great pieces, but they will absolutely depend on Butler resigning in 2 years. They can't rely on FA acquisitions like some teams can.

I have read your post.

You are not reading mine. It's a bad trade if it can bite you in the ass. It can't. Because in 2020 even if Butler isn't here, LaVine and Dunn were not going to be better options and LaVine himself wouldn't be here.

The wolves got their guy and gave up the the absolutely bare minimum and even got to keep a draft pick.

And you're wrong that if Butler leaves they get nowhere. Assuming they lock up KAT and Wiggins they still have two stars(wiggins with more to prove) that they have built around.

It was a fantastic trade for a team that hasn't sniffed the playoffs in 13 years. They got rid of a garbage 23 year old and a guy who plays defense worse then me. Robbery.

 

[flyerhawk]

Read my posts dude.

They are a 50 win team today. but, the next 2 years don't matter. 50 wins will get you a 2nd round exit at the hands of the Warriors. Congrats!

If I am The GM in Minnesoata, I am assembling a group that can can actually contend for a championship in 2020, when KAT and Wiggins are ready to roll. If Butler stays, they will be just that. If he leaves, well then, you are SOL. That is all I am saying.

You act like there is zero downside risk, when there is in fact plenty. 50 wins gets you nothing. Take it from me as a Wizards fan. My team tries to shortcut the process a few years ago and look where it landed them.

But then again, I have been admiring the 6ers rebuild for years while most people have been crushing them. If you aren't building to win a ring, you are doing it wrong. Minnesota has some great pieces, but they will absolutely depend on Butler resigning in 2 years. They can't rely on FA acquisitions like some teams can.

Being a 50 win team is a big deal on its own. Much easier to attract talent when you are a 50 win team rather than a 30 win team. Especially when you have some super star talent on the team.

I just don't think any GM can seriously just punt on being competitive for 4 seasons. First off, you never know what will happen during the season. A couple of key injuries and the Warriors become mere mortals again. Secondly, you won't remain a GM for long if you can't improve the team. What the Sixers did took buy in from the very start by the owners and fans. And even then they dumped Hinkie.

Yes they will want to resign Butler in 2 seasons. If he doesn't that will be a set back. That doesn't change the fact that they gave up relatively little to get him for the next 2 years. And if they can put together a competitive team I think it is entirely possible that Butler will want to stay.

OTOH, if they remain a mediocre team for 4 more years they could say goodbye to KAT and Wiggins.

 

[SJ76]

Thibs is about defense. So is Jimmy. Wish the Bulls still had both of them but I think it was time to cut bait. Young Bulls team has some youth and talent so we will see.

Minny could be scary in Jimmys 2nd year. Think it will take them time to gel

 

[tlance]

I have read your post.

You are not reading mine. It's a bad trade if it can bite you in the ass. It can't. Because in 2020 even if Butler isn't here, LaVine and Dunn were not going to be better options and LaVine himself wouldn't be here.

The wolves got their guy and gave up the the absolutely bare minimum and even got to keep a draft pick.

And you're wrong that if Butler leaves they get nowhere. Assuming they lock up KAT and Wiggins they still have two stars(wiggins with more to prove) that they have built around.

It was a fantastic trade for a team that hasn't sniffed the playoffs in 13 years. They got rid of a garbage 23 year old and a guy who plays defense worse then me. Robbery.

I have read your posts. Do you actually think KAT + Wiggins is enough to contend by themselves?

First off, you are completely underestimating the value of your prospects. Potential has value in the NBA. Dunn has potential, regardless of what you say, and LaVine is a solid player. There were multiple players on the board at 7 with star potential.

Wiggins and KAT were already there. They won't ever be good enough to win a title by themselves, however. If Butler leaves, that is all you will have. In Minnesota, you can't ever count on landing a FA.

He might not leave. If he does, you are locked in 45-5O win purgatory until KAT and Wiggins eventually leave. It is a risk. And because you are being such an ass here, I will rub it in your face if it fails. Like I said before, we won't know until July 2019 at the earliest.

 

[SJ76]

^ this clown loves him some Warriors. Dick rides some current NBA too

Jimmy just got there and is with his old coach. Let's see what happens

 

[tlance]

Being a 50 win team is a big deal on its own. Much easier to attract talent when you are a 50 win team rather than a 30 win team. Especially when you have some super star talent on the team.

I just don't think any GM can seriously just punt on being competitive for 4 seasons. First off, you never know what will happen during the season. A couple of key injuries and the Warriors become mere mortals again. Secondly, you won't remain a GM for long if you can't improve the team. What the Sixers did took buy in from the very start by the owners and fans. And even then they dumped Hinkie.

Yes they will want to resign Butler in 2 seasons. If he doesn't that will be a set back. That doesn't change the fact that they gave up relatively little to get him for the next 2 years. And if they can put together a competitive team I think it is entirely possible that Butler will want to stay.

OTOH, if they remain a mediocre team for 4 more years they could say goodbye to KAT and Wiggins.

You are right about the GM thing, but, that is a serious flaw in the way GMs are evaluated. There is a disconnect in terms of what is best for the long term and pressure to show results now. Patience is key during any rebuild. KAT is special. The jury is still out on Wiggins.

I understand why everyone is calling this a huge win for Minny, but those same analysts blasted the 6ers for giving away MCW for nothing a few years ago. Time will tell. This deal is not a slam dunk like most analysts want you to believe.

 

[tlance]

Well one of two things.

1. His value is low as shown by the relatively paltry return they got for him. On paper they got fleeced.
2. They rejected other deals that may have looked better but they loved Dunn, Levine or Markannen so much that they took this deal instead.


I don't think they should have traded him for a player like Kevin Love. I think they should have traded him for Brooklyn's 2018 pick and some change. Or something similar from the Lakers, although that would have been their '19 pick.

Now I don't know what was actually being offered to them. But I find it hard to believe that there were only 3 teams that were willing to make a deal to bring in Jimmy Butler. And if the Bulls are planning on a tankapalooza, I'm not sure that getting a lottery pick this year makes all that much sense anyway.

There were far more than 3 teams who wanted Butler. There were only 3 who had the type of assets the Bulls were seeking. None of the contenders (except Boston) have young, high lottery talent to deal, and most bad teams with those assets don't benefit by dealing for Butler.

 

[msgkings322]

Read my posts dude.

They are a 50 win team today. but, the next 2 years don't matter. 50 wins will get you a 2nd round exit at the hands of the Warriors. Congrats!

If I am The GM in Minnesoata, I am assembling a group that can can actually contend for a championship in 2020, when KAT and Wiggins are ready to roll. If Butler stays, they will be just that. If he leaves, well then, you are SOL. That is all I am saying.

You act like there is zero downside risk, when there is in fact plenty. 50 wins gets you nothing. Take it from me as a Wizards fan. My team tries to shortcut the process a few years ago and look where it landed them.

But then again, I have been admiring the 6ers rebuild for years while most people have been crushing them. If you aren't building to win a ring, you are doing it wrong. Minnesota has some great pieces, but they will absolutely depend on Butler resigning in 2 years. They can't rely on FA acquisitions like some teams can.

To be fair Minny fans have been waiting so long to just make the playoffs that 50 wins is kind of like winning it all. Not being snarky, a Twolves fan would be happy to just be relevant again. If they pull that off and Butler doesn't wanna stay someone else will sign there.

 

[flyerhawk]

You are right about the GM thing, but, that is a serious flaw in the way GMs are evaluated. There is a disconnect in terms of what is best for the long term and pressure to show results now. Patience is key during any rebuild. KAT is special. The jury is still out on Wiggins.

It is a bad way to measure GMs but that is how it is done. KAT is special but you can't just punt 3 years to wait until his prime.

I understand why everyone is calling this a huge win for Minny, but those same analysts blasted the 6ers for giving away MCW for nothing a few years ago. Time will tell. This deal is not a slam dunk like most analysts want you to believe.

The consensus on the MCW trade was far more mixed. Lots of folks looked at MCW as a volume scorer and that his RoY was based mostly on being a bad team. But the criticism revolved mostly around the upside of MCW not what they got in return. Getting a pretty bad team's 1st round pick was good value.

For me, it was giving up that 16th pick that really put this trade over the top for the Wolves.

 

[Ickey Shuffle]

I'm confident Butler can motivate Wiggins into a competent defender.

And they managed to keep Rubio. A+ for them.

 

[tlance]

It is a bad way to measure GMs but that is how it is done. KAT is special but you can't just punt 3 years to wait until his prime.



The consensus on the MCW trade was far more mixed. Lots of folks looked at MCW as a volume scorer and that his RoY was based mostly on being a bad team. But the criticism revolved mostly around the upside of MCW not what they got in return. Getting a pretty bad team's 1st round pick was good value.

For me, it was giving up that 16th pick that really put this trade over the top for the Wolves.

Yeah, I agree on the 16th pick. Bulls could have done without giving that up.

 

[Tubbs1518]

Anyone who doesn't think this is a slam dunk win for the TWolves knows nothing about basketball. Everyone and their brothers are laughing at the Bulls for the shitty trade they got.

 

[tlance]

Anyone who doesn't think this is a slam dunk win for the TWolves knows nothing about basketball. Everyone and their brothers are laughing at the Bulls for the shitty trade they got.

LOL.

Show up here for 5 minutes and criticize someone who posts here everyday?

I know a hell of lot more than you and my logic is sound. It is only a slam dunk win if Butler stays beyond 2019. It is a good trade for Minnesota, but not one that comes without risk.

 

[Tubbs1518]

LOL.

Show up here for 5 minutes and criticize someone who posts here everyday?

I know a hell of lot more than you and my logic is sound. It is only a slam dunk win if Butler stays beyond 2019. It is a good trade for Minnesota, but not one that comes without risk.

It's a slam dunk no matter what because they gave up a poor PG who is already 23 and likely isn't going to learn to shoot and a SG who plays 0 defense, who relies on his athleticism, who is coming off an ACL and moved down in the draft 9 spots. Even if Butler leaves, they become a playoff team for 2 years, which matters, Butler can teach Wiggins a ton of stuff on both offense and defense, which makes him a better player. This helps Minnesota look better to prospective FA, even if Butler does leave. This also gives them a chance at having Butler long term, which they likely didn't have without trading for him. What did they lose? A PG who isn't nearly as good as the one they have, and only 3 years younger despite being over here for what seems like forever, a SG who was likely leaving in FA anyways and they moved down 9 spots. This was a SLAM DUNK deal for Minnesota even if they don't keep Butler after 2 years.

 

[Tubbs1518]

LOL.

Show up here for 5 minutes and criticize someone who posts here everyday?

I know a hell of lot more than you and my logic is sound. It is only a slam dunk win if Butler stays beyond 2019. It is a good trade for Minnesota, but not one that comes without risk.

I've also been around here a lot longer than you, so fuck you.

 

[PnkPanther]

Yeah, I agree on the 16th pick. Bulls could have done without giving that up.

Wolves said it was a must or they wouldn't have done the deal

 

[tlance]

I've also been around here a lot longer than you, so fuck you.

You not a regular on the NBA boards.

 

[Tubbs1518]

You not a regular on the NBA boards.

Your point is? I have to troll around some internet message board to know what I'm talking about?

 

[tlance]

It's a slam dunk no matter what because they gave up a poor PG who is already 23 and likely isn't going to learn to shoot and a SG who plays 0 defense, who relies on his athleticism, who is coming off an ACL and moved down in the draft 9 spots. Even if Butler leaves, they become a playoff team for 2 years, which matters, Butler can teach Wiggins a ton of stuff on both offense and defense, which makes him a better player. This helps Minnesota look better to prospective FA, even if Butler does leave. This also gives them a chance at having Butler long term, which they likely didn't have without trading for him. What did they lose? A PG who isn't nearly as good as the one they have, and only 3 years younger despite being over here for what seems like forever, a SG who was likely leaving in FA anyways and they moved down 9 spots. This was a SLAM DUNK deal for Minnesota even if they don't keep Butler after 2 years.

I disagree.

They need more than just Wiggins and Townes to be a contender. Butler could be the third guy, but only if he stays. If he leaves, they are on the Wizards/Clippers track and will be in need of free agent help they may never find.

Regardless of how you value Dunn and Lavine, there are teams around the league who think highly of them. They may or may not be long term pieces for the Wolves, but they could absolutely be flipped for a long term piece.

But again. Everyone rushing to judge this trade today is missing the entire point. There are variables in play that could swing this in the Bulls favor long term whether or not any of the pieces they landed from Minnesota hit. They need to suck, and now they probably will. If they land a top 3 pick next year, then this trade is a win for them. If the Wolves top out at 50 wins, lose Butler then eventually lose KAT and Wiggins without ever seriously contending, this trade will be a loss. That scenario is entirely plausible, but all you guys can see is the here and now.

Obviously the Wolves have the best of it today. Let's see if that is still true in 5 years. Any deal trading a current asset for a future asset must take the long view when evaluating.