Winners tonight: Minnesota and Charlotte

[msgkings322]

I disagree.

They need more than just Wiggins and Townes to be a contender. Butler could be the third guy, but only if he stays. If he leaves, they are on the Wizards/Clippers track and will be in need of free agent help they may never find.

Regardless of how you value Dunn and Lavine, there are teams around the league who think highly of them. They may or may not be long term pieces for the Wolves, but they could absolutely be flipped for a long term piece.

But again. Everyone rushing to judge this trade today is missing the entire point. There are variables in play that could swing this in the Bulls favor long term whether or not any of the pieces they landed from Minnesota hit. They need to suck, and now they probably will. If they land a top 3 pick next year, then this trade is a win for them. If the Wolves top out at 50 wins, lose Butler then eventually lose KAT and Wiggins without ever seriously contending, this trade will be a loss. That scenario is entirely plausible, but all you guys can see is the here and now.

Obviously the Wolves have the best of it today. Let's see if that is still true in 5 years. Any deal trading a current asset for a future asset must take the long view when evaluating.

In that case maybe both teams "win". The team that wants to win now gets the current asset and the team that wants to win later gets the future one. Even if Butler leaves, Minny got exactly what they wanted and needed. This trade is a win for them, whether or not the Bulls "win" or not.

If Butler gets them 2 48-50 win seasons and a playoff series or two, they will either keep him or get another to come there. The "risk" of this deal for Minny is only is it a good trade or a great one. Good is the floor.

 

[Tubbs1518]

I disagree.

They need more than just Wiggins and Townes to be a contender. Butler could be the third guy, but only if he stays. If he leaves, they are on the Wizards/Clippers track and will be in need of free agent help they may never find.

Regardless of how you value Dunn and Lavine, there are teams around the league who think highly of them. They may or may not be long term pieces for the Wolves, but they could absolutely be flipped for a long term piece.

But again. Everyone rushing to judge this trade today is missing the entire point. There are variables in play that could swing this in the Bulls favor long term whether or not any of the pieces they landed from Minnesota hit. They need to suck, and now they probably will. If they land a top 3 pick next year, then this trade is a win for them. If the Wolves top out at 50 wins, lose Butler then eventually lose KAT and Wiggins without ever seriously contending, this trade will be a loss. That scenario is entirely plausible, but all you guys can see is the here and now.

Obviously the Wolves have the best of it today. Let's see if that is still true in 5 years. Any deal trading a current asset for a future asset must take the long view when evaluating.

No you are missing the entire point, but based on the stuff you keep saying, that's to be expected.

 

[Tubbs1518]

In that case maybe both teams "win". The team that wants to win now gets the current asset and the team that wants to win later gets the future one. Even if Butler leaves, Minny got exactly what they wanted and needed. This trade is a win for them, whether or not the Bulls "win" or not.

If Butler gets them 2 48-50 win seasons and a playoff series or two, they will either keep him or get another to come there. The "risk" of this deal for Minny is only is it a good trade or a great one. Good is the floor.

This is exactly correct

 

[tlance]

In that case maybe both teams "win". The team that wants to win now gets the current asset and the team that wants to win later gets the future one. Even if Butler leaves, Minny got exactly what they wanted and needed. This trade is a win for them, whether or not the Bulls "win" or not.

If Butler gets them 2 48-50 win seasons and a playoff series or two, they will either keep him or get another to come there. The "risk" of this deal for Minny is only is it a good trade or a great one. Good is the floor.

That is a rather large assumption. Minnesota has never landed a marquis free agent. They couldn't do it when they had Kevin Garnett, and he was a top 3 player. I would not assume top players will sign there to join Townes and Wiggins. Minnesota is about the opposite of a free agent destination. The combination of cold weather and small market makes it a tough sell.

 

[tlance]

No you are missing the entire point, but based on the stuff you keep saying, that's to be expected.

Did I say it was a bad trade? All I said is it is risky. Might turn out great. Might not.

 

[msgkings322]

That is a rather large assumption. Minnesota has never landed a marquis free agent. They couldn't do it when they had Kevin Garnett, and he was a top 3 player. I would not assume top players will sign there to join Townes and Wiggins. Minnesota is about the opposite of a free agent destination. The combination of cold weather and small market makes it a tough sell.

Still, this trade is a current win for them, regardless of if it's a win for Chicago. For the next 2 years they get to be relevant and go to the playoffs. They get a shot at keeping Butler, or attracting another FA. Maybe LeBron will sign there, why not? LeBron/Butler/KAT/Wiggins/Rubio, hello championships.

Are you one of those types that has trouble changing positions once they've staked theirs out?

 

[tlance]

Still, this trade is a current win for them, regardless of if it's a win for Chicago. For the next 2 years they get to be relevant and go to the playoffs. They get a shot at keeping Butler, or attracting another FA. Maybe LeBron will sign there, why not? LeBron/Butler/KAT/Wiggins/Rubio, hello championships.

Are you one of those types that has trouble changing positions once they've staked theirs out?

LOL.

This trade will do 1 of 2 things:

1:Eventually elevate Minnesota to contender status
2:prevent them from getting there

Picking up an extra 10 wins this year is great and all, but it doesn't make them a contender. If you aren't a contender, you are irrelevant in my book. Trust me, I know all about irrelevant NBA teams as a Wizards fan.

My position isn't hard to grasp. If Butler leaves, Minnesota will Be relying on doing something they have never done in franchise history in order to be a contender. Everyone else is acting like 50 wins is the ultimate goal. If that makes you happy, great. But, you are all thinking small picture, while I am thinking big.

Before Thursday, the wolves had many paths to eventually build to contender status. They had 2 young stars any many tradeable assets. Now they have cashed most of them in and have chosen their path. It might have been a tad early for them to do so. Time will tell.

The hardest part is the stars, which Minny has. I just don't have any faith in their ability to sign a free agent. Not sure why anyone else would. I will believe it when I see it.

But LOL that you all keep trying to blast me for saying it might not be good long term. We don't know yet. I am not even saying it is bad. Just that it might be. But, I promise that I will pull this thread back up in 4 years if it goes bad. You all will have a lot of crow to eat.

 

[msgkings322]

LOL.

This trade will do 1 of 2 things:

1:Eventually elevate Minnesota to contender status
2:prevent them from getting there

Picking up an extra 10 wins this year is great and all, but it doesn't make them a contender. If you aren't a contender, you are irrelevant in my book. Trust me, I know all about irrelevant NBA teams as a Wizards fan.

My position isn't hard to grasp. If Butler leaves, Minnesota will Be relying on doing something they have never done in franchise history in order to be a contender. Everyone else is acting like 50 wins is the ultimate goal. If that makes you happy, great. But, you are all thinking small picture, while I am thinking big.

Before Thursday, the wolves had many paths to eventually build to contender status. They had 2 young stars any many tradeable assets. Now they have cashed most of them in and have chosen their path. It might have been a tad early for them to do so. Time will tell.

The hardest part is the stars, which Minny has. I just don't have any faith in their ability to sign a free agent. Not sure why anyone else would. I will believe it when I see it.

But LOL that you all keep trying to blast me for saying it might not be good long term. We don't know yet. I am not even saying it is bad. Just that it might be. But, I promise that I will pull this thread back up in 4 years if it goes bad. You all will have a lot of crow to eat.

OMG if I'm still posting here in 4 years kill me LOL

I am not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying there's more than one path to a championship, and for most Minny fans there's other goals as well. If you grade every trade a fail or too big a risk if it doesn't create a clear path to a championship then almost every trade is a fail.

 

[tlance]

OMG if I'm still posting here in 4 years kill me LOL

I am not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying there's more than one path to a championship, and for most Minny fans there's other goals as well. If you grade every trade a fail or too big a risk if it doesn't create a clear path to a championship then almost every trade is a fail.

People are saying I am wrong. Not you, but others are. I have not once said this is a bad trade.

I am the only one saying it is risky while others claiming it is 100% good.

 

[msgkings322]

People are saying I am wrong. Not you, but others are. I have not once said this is a bad trade.

I am the only one saying it is risky while others claiming it is 100% good.

Fair enough, I guess my point is worst case it's still pretty good for Minny. Best case it's an all time home run. The "risk" is that it's only a good deal.

 

[GNG]

With Walker, Monk, Batum, Zeller, and Howard, Charlotte could be a darkhorse contender in the east next season. Even-numbered years tend to fare better for them than odd ones.

They won't be a contender in my opinion.

 

[DJ]

 

[Tubbs1518]

People are saying I am wrong. Not you, but others are. I have not once said this is a bad trade.

I am the only one saying it is risky while others claiming it is 100% good.

because you are wrong. Even if Butler leaves this is a great trade for Minnesota because Dunn isn't good and LeVine likely leaves anyways and is overrated anyways.

 

[tlance]

Fair enough, I guess my point is worst case it's still pretty good for Minny. Best case it's an all time home run. The "risk" is that it's only a good deal.

See what I mean?

Casual fans don't understand that these pieces have trade value whether they are moved today or in a year or two. It has nothing to do with their current ability. But I am done here. For now.

 

[flyerhawk]

People are saying I am wrong. Not you, but others are. I have not once said this is a bad trade.

I am the only one saying it is risky while others claiming it is 100% good.

Every trade ever made involves some risk. If we go by that standard we can't judge any trade at the time of the trade.

 

[trojanfan12]

Every trade ever made involves some risk. If we go by that standard we can't judge any trade at the time of the trade.

^^^This^^^

Some trades look like no brainers/slam dunks and still don't work out for various reasons.

Heck, I remember after the Dwight/Nash trade, virtually everyone had the Lakers in the finals vs. the Heat.

We saw how that turned out.

Obviously, some trades look better than others, but it takes a season or 2 before we really know how good a trade is.

 

[flyerhawk]

^^^This^^^

Some trades look like no brainers/slam dunks and still don't work out for various reasons.

Heck, I remember after the Dwight/Nash trade, virtually everyone had the Lakers in the finals vs. the Heat.

We saw how that turned out.

Obviously, some trades look better than others, but it takes a season or 2 before we really know how good a trade is.

Sure. It was possible that the Kings-Sixers trade would work out really well for the Kings. It wasn't very likely and it didn't but it was possible .

We can all agree that it is possible that the Wolves will rue this trade. But as far as making the trade without the benefit of clairvoyance, it is very difficult to say anything other than the Wolves won big on this trade. Perhaps it will turn out to be hurt them. Perhaps Kris Dunn will learn how to shoot. Perhaps Lari Markannen will learn how to play D. Perhaps Zach Levine will stay healthy and be the 2 way swing player that he has the talent to be. And perhaps Jimmy Butler will never fit in with the Wolves and will leaver after 2 disappointing years. That is possible.

But the odds are not in favor of any of that happening. When it comes to trades and draft picks and free agent signings all you can do is give yourself the best odds of success. Fultz may turn out to be a dud. But he offered the Sixers the best chance of success so they went for him. That's all a GM can do.

 

[trojanfan12]

Sure. It was possible that the Kings-Sixers trade would work out really well for the Kings. It wasn't very likely and it didn't but it was possible .

We can all agree that it is possible that the Wolves will rue this trade. But as far as making the trade without the benefit of clairvoyance, it is very difficult to say anything other than the Wolves won big on this trade. Perhaps it will turn out to be hurt them. Perhaps Kris Dunn will learn how to shoot. Perhaps Lari Markannen will learn how to play D. Perhaps Zach Levine will stay healthy and be the 2 way swing player that he has the talent to be. And perhaps Jimmy Butler will never fit in with the Wolves and will leaver after 2 disappointing years. That is possible.

But the odds are not in favor of any of that happening. When it comes to trades and draft picks and free agent signings all you can do is give yourself the best odds of success. Fultz may turn out to be a dud. But he offered the Sixers the best chance of success so they went for him. That's all a GM can do.

Agree.

@tlance does make a good point re: Butler possibly leaving. If he does, this trade won't look as good in 2 years as it does now.

But, imo, when you have a chance to land a player like Butler, you have to take that chance. Especially when you have missed the playoffs for what? 13 straight years? and you have a coach that the player you acquired is known to have liked playing for.

If I were a Wolves fan, I'd much rather see my team take the shot and have Butler walk after 2 years than to just assume he won't stay and not make the trade.

 

[DorianRo]

Gotta take Butler but he is more or less a 3rd option type player. There has to be a lead dog acquired. He isn't one

 

[trojanfan12]

Gotta take Butler but he is more or less a 3rd option type player. There has to be a lead dog acquired. He isn't one

We don't know if he is a lead dog or not. He was never in a position in Chicago to be the lead dog. He is now, so we will see how it plays out.

There are plenty of players who hadn't been lead dogs earlier in their careers, who ended up doing just fine as lead dogs later on.