Time for the Roy Williams slobberfest to end

[TrollyMcTroller]

They would probally pick Roy just because its UNC. The powder blue jerseys and all the greats that came from there like Worthy, Jordan etc... Its people that dont have much knowledge of Syracuse basketball at all.

Yes, there are probably people that would pick becasue of the jersey color or name recognition.

I don't know a single neutral educated basketball fan that would pick JB over Roy. I don't know anybody out side of Cuse fans that get a hardon for a 2-3 zone. I don't know anybody that would rather have regular season success over Tournament success.

Roy is simply better at the stuff that matters. (winning in the post season)

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

Very good post. J.B. made Syracuse what it is today. Roy Williams walked into a pretty good situation and UNC already was known as a National Power. Dean Smith anyone?

Really? Take over a program that Doherty had run into the ground? That's a "pretty good" situation?

I'm not claiming it was the worst, but it's not like a HoF coach decided to retire and hand the reigns over to him. He inherited an NIT team from a guy that couldn't coach his way out of a paper sack.

 

[jonvi]

And while its no secret I'm no fan of JB, I have a great deal of respect for him and his career. He's a HoF'er without a doubt, and he's earned that title. But I'm not going to act like he's better than he is. I agree he's done great things at Syracuse. He got 'em a National Championship. Last I checked, that's a pretty big deal. But at the end of the day, his Tournament resume isn't on par with guys like Roy. If you want to say Roy had more advantages going in, I'll buy that. But it doesn't really change the resume.

And I understand, if you'd want to keep JB over Roy. Most fans (except Great Dayne and that Spartan troll... and MikeSyr18 wherever he may be) would rather keep their current coach, than get a new one, even if the new one is a "better" coach. It's a loyalty thing. I get it. But if you asked most neutral fans, I think they'd probably pick Roy.

I expected a "Don't blame Williams because JB can't recruit. Thank You.

 

[jonvi]

Really? Take over a program that Doherty had run into the ground? That's a "pretty good" situation?

I'm not claiming it was the worst, but it's not like a HoF coach decided to retire and hand the reigns over to him. He inherited an NIT team from a guy that couldn't coach his way out of a paper sack.

And I really liked Matt Dougherty. He just didn't make it happen like I thought he would.

 

[Malibu]

Really? Take over a program that Doherty had run into the ground? That's a "pretty good" situation?

I'm not claiming it was the worst, but it's not like a HoF coach decided to retire and hand the reigns over to him. He inherited an NIT team from a guy that couldn't coach his way out of a paper sack.

But is UNC, with all the tradition, Deam Smith and the all time greats that came from UNC. J.B. basically started with nothing. Roy Williams walked into a team that was as popular as any team and kids wanted to play there. Completly different then what J.B. had to build.

 

[Malibu]

Sorry but we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[dcZONAfan]

Obviously you dont read to well. If they were a little deeper that would make it possible for them to press more often and get easy baskets. C.J. Fair wore down the last 10 games of the year and the numbers show that. Easy baskets would have helped this team out alot. Its not like the guys on the bench were walkons. Please get a clue.

no my point was that if the players on your bench aren't good players, then you hurt your team by trying to force depth that isn't there. If you have 10 quality players and play 6, that's a mistake. If you have 6 quality players and play 10, that's a mistake. For Syracuse it would have been the latter this year once Coleman went down (wouldn't have helped your offense, though. he was just another big body for defense and fouls)

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

But is UNC, with all the tradition, Deam Smith and the all time greats that came from UNC. J.B. basically started with nothing. Roy Williams walked into a team that was as popular as any team and kids wanted to play there. Completly different then what J.B. had to build.

We can agree that the situation for Roy taking over in UNC was better than JB in Syracuse. I have no problem admitting that. I just can't agree with the rosey colored view of it being "pretty good" when the reality is it was the lowest point of the UNC program in decades.

If anything it goes to show Roy's coaching ability. He took basically the same group of players that Matt Doherty took to the NIT and got a title for them in his 2nd year.

 

[CoolStoryBro]

Well, for starters, you're wrong. People talk about Self's early losses, and K's early losses all the time. (in the context of early exits) Duke is probably the most hated program in CBB (though UK fans will argue that as they hate to be 2nd to Duke in anything) and every time they have an early exit from the tourney, the sports world has a collective karmagasm. Did you notice the "Is Coach K unfirable" thread that popped up right after the Mercer loss? I'm pretty sure I've read plenty about Self/Kansas and their early exit woes... probably because I've written about it numerous times.

Funny thing about Donovan, I think less about the back to back titles than I do the 3 consecutive trips to the Elite Eight in a row (and all were within a bucket or two of making the Final Four)



The knock on JB is two-fold. One, yeah, he has a shitpile of wins, but that isn't hard to do when you schedule Colgate, and Long Island Community College & 1 Hour Martenizing every year. Yes there were a few years where the "BEast" provided them with several challenging games" but for the most part, all those wins came from a creampuff OOC schedule and a mediocre conference. Did he win a lot of games? Yeah, but did he win against the same type of competition that Coach K did? Bob Knight? Dean Smith? fuck no, he didn't. His win total is impressive regardless of the competition, but let's not act like that alone puts him in the same level as Dean Smith or Bobby Knight.




Well, I guess that depends on what you consider doing "something." Because that's the 2nd knock on Boeheim. I'd consider "something" to be making a Final Four or at least an Elite Eight every once in a while. You may want to go back and reevaluate just how much Boeheim is done over his long career and get the fuck off your high horse, because when you really look at it objectively, Boehime seems to do something worth a shit in the tournament about once every 10 years.

You have a great way of putting words in my mouth. Get off my high horse, did I claim Boeheim is the greatest coach of all time? Did I say that? No dude. Did I out him on the level of Dean or Knight, no I didn't.

It took a long time to build Cuse up to where it is and he did it himself. If you can't say he's a good coach your an idiot.

My post was in response to those same people who said is coach K unfirable, because those are the same people who argue about whether Coach Boeheim is worth his salt. He is, he's proven it. The Big East has had a lot of great years not just a few.

Boeheim does something every ten years huh? Right. If that your thinking, we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Codaxx]

Not wanting to join the fight, but no way would I take R Williams over JB. Gary Williams...maybe. But not Roy.

UNC has always welcomed in great recruits. Until recent...say the Dion Waiters era, most SU recuits were diamonds in the ruff with a few noted exceptions. But overall, SU got the left overs with the steady stream of 5 star recruits always picking UNC, Duke, UK and KU. Roy has had the advantage of coaching at schools with great history's. Coach JB made SU a basketball schoo and SU basketball history is all Coach Boeheim.. Roy has never turned a program into a national name.

Besides....Coach JB is local. You gotta love it when a local kid makes the nationals.

Comparing a private school like SU to UNC is not really apples to apples. But back on Roy....he's done well enough. I didn't like the thread knowing it was going to drag SU fans into a no win debate of who's dick is bigger. Well for sure UNC, Duke, UK and KU have bigger bball dicks. But not a one of them have a coach that made the program what it is today.

You have to young. Cuse used to get amazing recruits in the hey day of the big east. I always thought JB started to veer away from some as one and done became the norm. The Pearl, Coleman, Sherman, Autry, Moten, Wallace, Carmelo, etc. I know I missing a bunch, but that is just of the top of my head.

 

[CoolStoryBro]

You have to young. Cuse used to get amazing recruits in the hey day of the big east. I always thought JB started to veer away from some as one and done became the norm. The Pearl, Coleman, Sherman, Autry, Moten, Wallace, Carmelo, etc. I know I missing a bunch, but that is just of the top of my head.

He's had few compared to other big name programs.

Honestly he's mostly been recruiting for the zone lately, he still gets good classes but he's not looking for one and dones anymore, I wish he would lol. At least a few ya know.

Hard to compete with UK, UNC, Duke, Kansas.

 

[Codaxx]

Really? Take over a program that Doherty had run into the ground? That's a "pretty good" situation?

I'm not claiming it was the worst, but it's not like a HoF coach decided to retire and hand the reigns over to him. He inherited an NIT team from a guy that couldn't coach his way out of a paper sack.

Doherty was run out just as his "fab five" became upperclassmen and won a title. Doherty had many issues, but no way in hell did he run UNC into the ground.

 

[Codaxx]

He's had few compared to other big name programs.

Honestly he's mostly been recruiting for the zone lately, he still gets good classes but he's not looking for one and dones anymore, I wish he would lol. At least a few ya know.

Hard to compete with UK, UNC, Duke, Kansas.

He used to compete quite well vs those schools, so I am not sure it was not by choice. JB is a great coach. One of the best teachers of zone to ever bless the hard court. Offensively you may have questions, but his contribution to the game can not be denied. I hate his more recent style of ball, but he is far better than Roy. I have never been a huge Roy fan. His Kansas tenure was marked with tourney failures.

 

[CoolStoryBro]

He used to compete quite well vs those schools, so I am not sure it was not by choice. JB is a great coach. One of the best teachers of zone to ever bless the hard court. Offensively you may have questions, but his contribution to the game can not be denied. I hate his more recent style of ball, but he is far better than Roy. I have never been a huge Roy fan. His Kansas tenure was marked with tourney failures.

I agree with that. He use to be a great transition guy in offense, I think a few teams in a row that couldn't do well with it made him almost get away from it altogether.

The whole recruiting thing is a mystery to me it really is, I wish I was given an explanation for it. There's a few that make sense but I guess we will never know.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

You have a great way of putting words in my mouth. Get off my high horse, did I claim Boeheim is the greatest coach of all time? Did I say that? No dude. Did I out him on the level of Dean or Knight, no I didn't.

It took a long time to build Cuse up to where it is and he did it himself. If you can't say he's a good coach your an idiot.

Again, you better learn to fucking read before you start pecking away at that damn keyboard. I've said Boeheim is a good coach. But that isn't enough for you is it? Nope you've got your fucking panties in a wad because I said he's not as good as Roy. You gotta problem with that? Prove me wrong or shut the fuck up. Jim Boeheim is a good enough coach that he doesn't need you hugging his nuts for him.

My post was in response to those same people who said is coach K unfirable, because those are the same people who argue about whether Coach Boeheim is worth his salt. He is, he's proven it. The Big East has had a lot of great years not just a few.

K has fuckall to do with this discussion.

Boeheim does something every ten years huh? Right. If that your thinking, we will have to agree to disagree.

How long has he been coaching? How many Final Fours does he have? Yes... about every ten years. You're blinded by loyalty. He's not as good as you think he is.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

Doherty was run out just as his "fab five" became upperclassmen and won a title. Doherty had many issues, but no way in hell did he run UNC into the ground.

8-20 at UNC isn't running it into the ground? He took over from Guthridge who had just been to the Final Four. Doherty took that team, went 26-7 and out in the 2nd round of the NCAA. Not great by UNC standards but not awful. His second year he went 8-20. EIGHT AND TWENTY.

Last year he 19-16 and went to the NIT.

He barely managed a .500 record while he was there and actually had a losing record in the ACC.

If you want to argue over phrasing that's fine, but but they handed him the keys to the program, at the very least, he ran that motherfucker into a phone pole.

The point being, the "UNC" that Roy inherited was not the "UNC" that most people think of. It was still a prominent program on the national radar, but it needed a lot of work to get back into traditional UNC form.

 

[CoolStoryBro]

Again, you better learn to fucking read before you start pecking away at that damn keyboard. I've said Boeheim is a good coach. But that isn't enough for you is it? Nope you've got your fucking panties in a wad because I said he's not as good as Roy. You gotta problem with that? Prove me wrong or shut the fuck up. Jim Boeheim is a good enough coach that he doesn't need you hugging his nuts for him.



K has fuckall to do with this discussion.



How long has he been coaching? How many Final Fours does he have? Yes... about every ten years. You're blinded by loyalty. He's not as good as you think he is.

lol dude your a fucking tool, you really are. You pick apart my posts and put words in my mouth, but get mad if I apparently did it.

If you read my original post, I pretty much said I respected both coaches and would take them both, obviously as a Syracuse fan I gave the edge to Boeheim.

All I have ever said is he's a great coach, I really never compared him to anyone, my only argument with you is your disrespect towards him. If you say he's a good coach and you believe that, you wouldn't have spewed your bullshit about whatever the fuck else you scooped out of your ass. That's literally been my only issue with your posts, if you don't respect how good a coach he is, what's he's done for basketball in general and especially what he's done for Cuse we will NEVER agree.

I brought up K because my post was to the same people who calls K out for an early loss because those same people call out Boeheim. That's what it has to do with it, as I fucking said in the post.

You've literally come at me like I was comparing this guy to Dean Smith, or any other fucking coach. I am not that john0 dude, I don't blast other peoples coaches or teams if I respect them. I don't come on here looking to fight an egotistical prick like you. You are the type of person I could never come to a truce with, and that says a lot because I tried to stop this retarded back and forth 5-6 posts ago. You need to keep it going though don't you? Take your false pride somewhere else.

 

[Codaxx]

8-20 at UNC isn't running it into the ground? He took over from Guthridge who had just been to the Final Four. Doherty took that team, went 26-7 and out in the 2nd round of the NCAA. Not great by UNC standards but not awful. His second year he went 8-20. EIGHT AND TWENTY.

Last year he 19-16 and went to the NIT.

He barely managed a .500 record while he was there and actually had a losing record in the ACC.

If you want to argue over phrasing that's fine, but but they handed him the keys to the program, at the very least, he ran that motherfucker into a phone pole.

The point being, the "UNC" that Roy inherited was not the "UNC" that most people think of. It was still a prominent program on the national radar, but it needed a lot of work to get back into traditional UNC form.

You are dead wrong on what Roy inherited. He inherited May, McCants, and Felton. Doherty was crushed when Forte left early, which was a surprise. Ronald Curry and Peppers decided to just play football. That destroyed a team that was expected to compete for a title. That is when he got May, McCants, and Felton. After winning the preseason NIT and vaulting up the rankings, May went down and the team tumbled with him. I think Roy is basically a poor man's Calipari.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

lol dude your a fucking tool, you really are. You pick apart my posts and put words in my mouth, but get mad if I apparently did it.

If you read my original post, I pretty much said I respected both coaches and would take them both, obviously as a Syracuse fan I gave the edge to Boeheim.

All I have ever said is he's a great coach, I really never compared him to anyone, my only argument with you is your disrespect towards him. If you say he's a good coach and you believe that, you wouldn't have spewed your bullshit about whatever the fuck else you scooped out of your ass. That's literally been my only issue with your posts, if you don't respect how good a coach he is, what's he's done for basketball in general and especially what he's done for Cuse we will NEVER agree.

I brought up K because my post was to the same people who calls K out for an early loss because those same people call out Boeheim. That's what it has to do with it, as I fucking said in the post.

You've literally come at me like I was comparing this guy to Dean Smith, or any other fucking coach. I am not that john0 dude, I don't blast other peoples coaches or teams if I respect them. I don't come on here looking to fight an egotistical prick like you. You are the type of person I could never come to a truce with, and that says a lot because I tried to stop this retarded back and forth 5-6 posts ago. You need to keep it going though don't you? Take your false pride somewhere else.

Oh save your pious bullshit for somebody that gives a fuck. Your first post in this thread you started spewing a bunch of bullshit about how people that are critical of JB are just jealous. And had your panties in a wad before I even posted a reply to you, and you were the one that wanted to compare JB to other coaches...

I'm sick of hearing that shit. Not many coaches have done what's he done, and nobody talks about Coach K or Self with there early losses. Coach K hasn't done anything too crazy in the last decade, Boeheim hasn't done anything too crazy, Roy, Self has early losses, people only remember Donovans great two years, but all have NCs, FFs, E8s, S16s.

So fuck off.

I explained what my criticisms of JB are, and instead of addressing them, you want to bitch and moan about disrespecting him. If what I've said is true, then it isn't disrespect, it's simply the fucking truth. If it isn't true then fucking prove it. But if all you're going to do is fucking bitch and moan because people are as nice to poor ol' JB as you like, get used to disappointment (you probably already are, unless you're content with Sweet 16 appearances) because the criticism isn't going to stop.

I'll also remind you that this horseshit was started by a Cuse fan, bitching about Roy Williams. If you want to lecture someone about respect, track that drunk fuckstick down and lecture him.

 

[TrollyMcTroller]

You are dead wrong on what Roy inherited. He inherited May, McCants, and Felton. Doherty was crushed when Forte left early, which was a surprise. Ronald Curry and Peppers decided to just play football. That destroyed a team that was expected to compete for a title. That is when he got May, McCants, and Felton. After winning the preseason NIT and vaulting up the rankings, May went down and the team tumbled with him. I think Roy is basically a poor man's Calipari.

Calipari pretty much started over from scratch at UK. He had Patterson and.....

You're trying to paint the picture that Roy inherited a roster full of Championship contenders.

Which is it?

Roy inherited an NIT team. You know how I know that? Because they went to the NIT.

You can argue over how "not unc" the UNC roy inherited was, but my point still stands, he didn't inherit the UNC that Guthridge or Doherty did.