The Cavs without Lebron

[larryjohn]

They lost a good bit more than just Shaq.

Malone retired -- and they traded Payton & change for players. Trading Shaq and free agent -- they added Odom, Butler, Vlade Divac and Brian Grant.

Without Shaq -- they were bad -- even with a number of new/solid players.

 

[trojanfan12]

Malone retired -- and they traded Payton & change for players. Trading Shaq and free agent -- they added Odom, Butler, Vlade Divac and Brian Grant.

Without Shaq -- they were bad -- even with a number of new/solid players.

Yeah, with Shaq and others leaving, they were left with Kobe and the scraps they got from the Heat.

 

[lebron23james]

OK cool. Jordan > James.

There stats are almost identical. Jordan had better teams, lebron has had a longer lasting career putting up great numbers

Jordan 30 ppg 6 rpg 5 apg

Lebron 27.1 ppg 8.6 rpg 7 apg

Jordan fg% .497 3pt% .327 (2pt% .510)

Lebron fg% .498 3pt% .341 (2pt% .539)

 

[Hornsstampede2.0]

There stats are almost identical.

I am not a Jordan fanboy, and I actually like and appreciate Lebron.

But those Career stats are a bit misleading in that comparison.
You have to compare career averages once careers are over. Otherwise, you need to compare peak years.

Jordan, by his own so-called grief over his dead father, missed nearly 2 years of absolute prime
He played baseball for ages 29-31.
Then he diluted his career numbers with 2 ill-advised comeback years in Washington at ages 39 & 40.

Lebron is 32. He is on the backside of him prime and on the cusp of the eventual career decline.
Lebron's career stats will reflect the number declines expected from ages 34-38 if he continues to play.

 

[Shaqdaddy11]

There stats are almost identical. Jordan had better teams, lebron has had a longer lasting career putting up great numbers

Jordan 30 ppg 6 rpg 5 apg

Lebron 27.1 ppg 8.6 rpg 7 apg

Jordan fg% .497 3pt% .327 (2pt% .510)

Lebron fg% .498 3pt% .341 (2pt% .539)

Jordan 6-0 and never hopped to different teams with all-stars to win titles.

That's all that matters

 

[purguy12]

There stats are almost identical. Jordan had better teams, lebron has had a longer lasting career putting up great numbers

Jordan 30 ppg 6 rpg 5 apg

Lebron 27.1 ppg 8.6 rpg 7 apg

Jordan fg% .497 3pt% .327 (2pt% .510)

Lebron fg% .498 3pt% .341 (2pt% .539)

Lets also not forget MJ played in a tougher league and didnt run away to win a championship and Build a Fantasy team. He stayed and built around him and made players better on his team. Major Props for sticking with his team. He could of ran early in his career when the bad boys were beating them but no he stayed and the team drafted well and they built a team around him. Bonus points for all that.

These is the 1 think LBj Homers dont think of. He will always get hit with this. Some dont even count his heat championships(I look at it as a negative he couldnt even 3 peat with the Monster team). Cavs championship was his 1st real one and still up in question because he had to come back and try and build a fantasy team with Love and playing in a Weak ass East conference.

Now some might say Im a hater and Im not because I do appreciate his game and I said is a couple of times this last championship is one of the greatest(I do wish he hit that last shot to have that moment like the other greats) but overall he was the leader. I guess some of us Old school just dont like how he did everything. To some he is a quitter and not tough enough to do what Kobe, Wade or MJ did. Maybe LBJ is the new Shaq and that is ok. Shaq is great and LBJ is also great. If you think about Shaq and LBJ are alike. Both were dominate during their time. Both took their young teams to the Finals lost bad and both left to join a super star to win a Championship, then left again to win another one with another team. Shaq does have a 3 peat.

 

[trojanfan12]

To be fair to Lebron, things are done differently now. I think that part of it is the emphasis that is placed on championships (which I tend to agree with) for rating all-time great players.

Players, especially all-time greats like Lebron, know that at the end of their careers, there will be a great deal of emphasis placed on how many titles they won. So, where it used to be that you would see older guys at the end of their careers like Karl Malone, Gary Payton and to an extent guys like Barkley and Shaq, jump to other teams looking for a ring. Now, guys are looking to do it earlier in their careers. So, you get Lebron jumping teams twice, KD going to GSW, etc., etc.while still in their primes.

Of course now, the narrative changes to "But he didn't do it all with one team."

 

[Hornsstampede2.0]

I am not bashing Lebron

But, stars who play late into their 30s or even early 40s have seriously diluted career numbers.

Jordan's career stats reflect that hit...especially from his Wizards stint.

Look what Dirk Nowitzki has done to his career averages since he turned 32 years old.

 

[purguy12]

LBJ is great in his own way. Just like Shaq was. He is Kobe he isn't MJ. James himself even said this. In today NBA a losing record in the finals isn't a good thing. He will take hit for that his last championship was great. All around player he does it all. I can see him later in his career being a down low player like Shawn kemp once he loses his speed and just has his strength

 

[tlance]

LBJ is great in his own way. Just like Shaq was. He is Kobe he isn't MJ. James himself even said this. In today NBA a losing record in the finals isn't a good thing. He will take hit for that his last championship was great. All around player he does it all. I can see him later in his career being a down low player like Shawn kemp once he loses his speed and just has his strength

Well, I don't want to get into the whole Finals' record debate thing again.

But I will say this. Jordan never faced a team that was clearly superior to his in the Finals. I am not sure what the Vegas lines were in the Bulls/Lakers series, but I am sure the Bulls were the favorite every time after, if not then also.

LeBron has faced teams that were clearly favored on paper 3 times, and those Spurs teams were every bit the Heats' equal. His Finals record is understandable. 1 player cannot win a championship alone, yet it can be argued that LeBron did more for his team last year than any championship winning player ever.

Just because the Bulls teams were better than LeBron's teams does not mean the door should be automatically shut on the conversation. LeBron has a ways to go to approach Jordan's level, but the talk about GOAT is about more than just team achievements because a lot of other guys had a hand in those as well.

There is only one indisputable fact that comes from looking at Finals records. Jordan's Bulls were a more dominant team than any of LeBron's teams. Implying that Finals record automatically makes Jordan superior is a slap in the face to Pippen, Rodman, Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc, John Paxson, Ron Harper, Bill Cartwright, Steve Kerr, and all the other players who contributed to those titles. It is like saying these guys did not matter.

 

[Kold]

The narrative of the Cavs record without Lebron is so incomplete. It doesn't factor in things like who else was out with Lebron...but most importantly, it also doesn't factor in who was subbing in for Lebron. Just this last game(w/o JR also), Richard Jefferson was the starting SF. First it's Richard Jefferson so that's nowhere near an ideal replacement for Lebron, and on top of that, it weakens the Cavs bench. There are several things that factor into that record, and until the Cavs have a legit replacement for Lebron, we can't just say that the team would be nothing without Lebron

 

[Kold]

Like for instance, let's say that Lebron left, and he were replaced with Nic Batum. A team of Kyrie, JR Smith, Batum, Love, and TT is arguably a conference finalist contender with Boston and wherever team was built up with Lebron standing in the way

 

[tlance]

Like for instance, let's say that Lebron left, and he were replaced with Nic Batum. A team of Kyrie, JR Smith, Batum, Love, and TT is arguably a conference finalist contender with Boston and wherever team was built up with Lebron standing in the way

Nothing that we have seen to date supports that position. LeBron is worth more wins to his team than any player I have ever seen. That includes Jordan (relax guys, not saying he is better) If you replace LeBron with a good player like Batum, they would be a good team, but likely every bit as irrelevant as say, Charlotte. Whatever team LeBron went to would be better.

That is why it is somewhat silly to call Cleveland a super team. If you traded Lebron for Batum, Charlotte would instantly be the best in the East. You can make that same assertion for most East teams. LeBron's impact is that dynamic.

 

[Kold]

Well, I don't want to get into the whole Finals' record debate thing again.

But I will say this. Jordan never faced a team that was clearly superior to his in the Finals. I am not sure what the Vegas lines were in the Bulls/Lakers series, but I am sure the Bulls were the favorite every time after, if not then also.

LeBron has faced teams that were clearly favored on paper 3 times, and those Spurs teams were every bit the Heats' equal. His Finals record is understandable. 1 player cannot win a championship alone, yet it can be argued that LeBron did more for his team last year than any championship winning player ever.

Just because the Bulls teams were better than LeBron's teams does not mean the door should be automatically shut on the conversation. LeBron has a ways to go to approach Jordan's level, but the talk about GOAT is about more than just team achievements because a lot of other guys had a hand in those as well.

There is only one indisputable fact that comes from looking at Finals records. Jordan's Bulls were a more dominant team than any of LeBron's teams. Implying that Finals record automatically makes Jordan superior is a slap in the face to Pippen, Rodman, Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc, John Paxson, Ron Harper, Bill Cartwright, Steve Kerr, and all the other players who contributed to those titles. It is like saying these guys did not matter.

Disclaimer- I don't hate Lebron, just stating my opinion.

As for Lebron, despite whatever odds, those teams in Miami were never truly underdogs in any of those series. The only series where I thought that Lebron was a true underdog were 2 times against the Spurs the first time, and the Warriors the first time, when the injuries occured.
Also, let's not forget that the Bulls played some GREAT teams in those Finals. Lakers were hurt, but the Blazers, Suns, Sonics, and Jazz TWICE were some of the 90's greatest teams. The only series that were kind of in the bag, were the Lakers, and MAYBE the Sonics. Also let's not forget the fact that the East was as stacked as it had ever been, as opposed to Lebron being legitimately challenged maybe 2 or 3 times in the East throughout this whole run.
As for those Bulls teams, the biggest misconception is that Jordan's supporting cast was stacked. Looking at the starting lineup for that first year,
Paxson- 8 pts per game, Scottie avg. 17, 6 assists, and 7 rebounds, Horace Grant 12 and 8, and Cartwright had 9 and 6. Past that, the only person that was worth anything was B.J Armstrong, and he too avg. 8 points a game. They all played a good role, even Pippen with his defense on Magic was great, but that team was nowhere near stacked.
Next year was the same as far as averages go with the exception being that Pippen upped it to 21, 7, 7, and Horace did as well as he had 14 and 10, although in the third year they had a minor decline. Pippen was a great player(although he didn't have mind blowing production in those 3 years), and Horace was good(never great) in my opinion. Lastly, even looking past stats, in all 3 of those years, those Bulls teams never had more than one bench player that I look back on and say "boy he was a key contributor in some way".
I'll look at the other 3 at some point, but those Heat teams were much more stacked than those Bulls teams were for the first 3 titles.

 

[Shanemansj13]

Disclaimer- I don't hate Lebron, just stating my opinion.

As for Lebron, despite whatever odds, those teams in Miami were never truly underdogs in any of those series. The only series where I thought that Lebron was a true underdog were 2 times against the Spurs the first time, and the Warriors the first time, when the injuries occured.
Also, let's not forget that the Bulls played some GREAT teams in those Finals. Lakers were hurt, but the Blazers, Suns, Sonics, and Jazz TWICE were some of the 90's greatest teams. The only series that were kind of in the bag, were the Lakers, and MAYBE the Sonics. Also let's not forget the fact that the East was as stacked as it had ever been, as opposed to Lebron being legitimately challenged maybe 2 or 3 times in the East throughout this whole run.
As for those Bulls teams, the biggest misconception is that Jordan's supporting cast was stacked. Looking at the starting lineup for that first year,
Paxson- 8 pts per game, Scottie avg. 17, 6 assists, and 7 rebounds, Horace Grant 12 and 8, and Cartwright had 9 and 6. Past that, the only person that was worth anything was B.J Armstrong, and he too avg. 8 points a game. They all played a good role, even Pippen with his defense on Magic was great, but that team was nowhere near stacked.
Next year was the same as far as averages go with the exception being that Pippen upped it to 21, 7, 7, and Horace did as well as he had 14 and 10, although in the third year they had a minor decline. Pippen was a great player(although he didn't have mind blowing production in those 3 years), and Horace was good(never great) in my opinion. Lastly, even looking past stats, in all 3 of those years, those Bulls teams never had more than one bench player that I look back on and say "boy he was a key contributor in some way".
I'll look at the other 3 at some point, but those Heat teams were much more stacked than those Bulls teams were for the first 3 titles.

The Warriors were the favorite both times and it wasnt even close. The only time Lebron has ben the favorite was the Mavs (1st yr with the Heat), OKC, and the Spurs one year. And MJ had a pretty damn good supporting cast, especially defensively. He had some of the greatest defenders every on his team and he had a lot of great shooters, especially on the bench

 

[Shanemansj13]

Nothing that we have seen to date supports that position. LeBron is worth more wins to his team than any player I have ever seen. That includes Jordan (relax guys, not saying he is better) If you replace LeBron with a good player like Batum, they would be a good team, but likely every bit as irrelevant as say, Charlotte. Whatever team LeBron went to would be better.

That is why it is somewhat silly to call Cleveland a super team. If you traded Lebron for Batum, Charlotte would instantly be the best in the East. You can make that same assertion for most East teams. LeBron's impact is that dynamic.

If Lebron went to a 1-8 seed in the East for a player, they would be most likely be a better team than he left (the Cavs) and most likely the favorite. That is how great his impact is. I mean just go back to his younger days and the facts dont lie. He had a team that could win 20 games without him and he took them deep in the playoffs and to a championship. It's like some people dont remember what Lebron has done and what he had to go through in his first Cleveland days, they just look at Finals record and say, "nah he will never be the greatest bc MJ went 6-0". Completely different circumstances, but like I have said before he still has a long ways to go to get to MJ but last years Finals' performance was the greatest I have ever seen and the year before that could be 2nd. Just amazing how great he is.

 

[Kold]

Nothing that we have seen to date supports that position. LeBron is worth more wins to his team than any player I have ever seen. That includes Jordan (relax guys, not saying he is better) If you replace LeBron with a good player like Batum, they would be a good team, but likely every bit as irrelevant as say, Charlotte. Whatever team LeBron went to would be better.

That is why it is somewhat silly to call Cleveland a super team. If you traded Lebron for Batum, Charlotte would instantly be the best in the East. You can make that same assertion for most East teams. LeBron's impact is that dynamic.

And nothing we have seen proves my opinion wrong either. Lebron is one of the most valuable players that there is, no argument there, but I haven't seen Miami or Cleveland bounce back with a really good small forward when Lebron has sat, or left the team. This may be one where I'll agree to disagree, but if Batum goes to Cleveland, as I said they are arguably a contender for the conference finals in the East, not neccasirly a team that would make it to the Finals. I don't know if it makes them irrelevant that they couldn't win it, because if that's the case then the Raptors, Celtics and so on are irrelevant as well

 

[tlance]

And nothing we have seen proves my opinion wrong either. Lebron is one of the most valuable players that there is, no argument there, but I haven't seen Miami or Cleveland bounce back with a really good small forward when Lebron has sat, or left the team. This may be one where I'll agree to disagree, but if Batum goes to Cleveland, as I said they are arguably a contender for the conference finals in the East, not neccasirly a team that would make it to the Finals. I don't know if it makes them irrelevant that they couldn't win it, because if that's the case then the Raptors, Celtics and so on are irrelevant as well

Nearly so, IMO.

The Celtics are not irrelevant, but only because of the possibility they trade for a star. The Raptors aren't irrelvant, but close. They have less than 1 percent chance of beating a healthy Cavs team in the playoffs.

 

[Kold]

The Warriors were the favorite both times and it wasnt even close. The only time Lebron has ben the favorite was the Mavs (1st yr with the Heat), OKC, and the Spurs one year. And MJ had a pretty damn good supporting cast, especially defensively. He had some of the greatest defenders every on his team and he had a lot of great shooters, especially on the bench

Warriors/Cavs is a tale of factors, injuries, and whatever playing a big role in the outcome for both times in my opinion. Warriors were probably the betting favorite, but once Draymond, Bogut, and Iggy(blew out his back) go down, that atleast does something(certainly not everything) to change things. As for the Jordan's cast, I'm sure we can consider Harper and Rodman as great defenders, and I'll look at the last 3 years soon, but in that long winded post I just had, the only other great defender was Scottie in the first 3 years in my opinion, and he did have some good shooters, but the supporting cast overall was far from being stacked with only one person playing a key role off the bench

 

[tlance]

Disclaimer- I don't hate Lebron, just stating my opinion.

As for Lebron, despite whatever odds, those teams in Miami were never truly underdogs in any of those series. The only series where I thought that Lebron was a true underdog were 2 times against the Spurs the first time, and the Warriors the first time, when the injuries occured.
Also, let's not forget that the Bulls played some GREAT teams in those Finals. Lakers were hurt, but the Blazers, Suns, Sonics, and Jazz TWICE were some of the 90's greatest teams. The only series that were kind of in the bag, were the Lakers, and MAYBE the Sonics. Also let's not forget the fact that the East was as stacked as it had ever been, as opposed to Lebron being legitimately challenged maybe 2 or 3 times in the East throughout this whole run.
As for those Bulls teams, the biggest misconception is that Jordan's supporting cast was stacked. Looking at the starting lineup for that first year,
Paxson- 8 pts per game, Scottie avg. 17, 6 assists, and 7 rebounds, Horace Grant 12 and 8, and Cartwright had 9 and 6. Past that, the only person that was worth anything was B.J Armstrong, and he too avg. 8 points a game. They all played a good role, even Pippen with his defense on Magic was great, but that team was nowhere near stacked.
Next year was the same as far as averages go with the exception being that Pippen upped it to 21, 7, 7, and Horace did as well as he had 14 and 10, although in the third year they had a minor decline. Pippen was a great player(although he didn't have mind blowing production in those 3 years), and Horace was good(never great) in my opinion. Lastly, even looking past stats, in all 3 of those years, those Bulls teams never had more than one bench player that I look back on and say "boy he was a key contributor in some way".
I'll look at the other 3 at some point, but those Heat teams were much more stacked than those Bulls teams were for the first 3 titles.

I grew up watching basketball in the late 80s and 90s. None of those teams the Bulls faced were great. The Lakers were at the tail end of their dynasty run and IMO were the best of the group.

The other teams (Suns, Blazers, Jazz) were good basketball teams, but not great by any stretch. They had quality pieces and played well together. Still, if you compare rosters of any of those teams with the Warriors or Spurs that LeBron has faced the last 4 years, they come up far short. IronicAlly, OKC might have been more talented than any of those teams, but they lacked the experience necessary to beat Miami.

Further supporting my point, the Rockets who won in the two years Jordan was away were arguably the weakest championship team of the last 30 years. Hakeem was nasty, but the overall team was not on the level of current or past NBA champions.

In the 90s, the top talents were spread throughout the league more so than any other era. That began to change as free agency evolved after the Bulls run was finished.