Suh's new contract??????

[TrustMeIamRight]

That's a horrible comparison anyway

I'm curious why you believe that is horrible comparison? Suh is only as good as the players surrounding him. I think that is evident in the fact, until we drafted Ansah and Taylor, Levy become an all pro type LB and Fairley is playing for a contract -- The Lions defense has never been a top 10 unit. As a matter of fact -- I believe since Suh has been on the Lions, we have only had one year in the top 15 (I think we were 13th) in total defense. I think last year was the best we had in scoring defense, coming in 15th.

Everyone sees the 1st 7 games this year and we are ready to call him the catalyst in the NFL top defense. He has been here for over 4 years and we haven't finished in the top 10 yet as a unit.

 

[Kreton]

Everyone sees the 1st 7 games this year and we are ready to call him the catalyst in the NFL top defense. He has been here for over 4 years and we haven't finished in the top 10 yet as a unit.

Not that i am supporting 20 mil a year for Suh, but it isnt his fault the defense had been so bad previously. I think a lot of that was coaching and scheme. Austin is using the same players + digbo and without Tulloch and doing insanely more production.

 

[TwoCents22]

I understand your logic. But, again, if we had and OG, and I felt our offense would drop from "elite", to "average"(or worse) just from him leaving the team, then yes, I would pay him like a LT.

I doubt I would ever feel that way about an OG, though. The most important position on offense is clear cut. No debating that. I would say it's pretty clear cut that OG is the least important position(not saying not important at all). On defense, IMO, the importance of each position is more indifferent. A star DB can have the same impact as a star DT. A star OG will never have the same impact as a star QB.

Again, I realize what your guys are saying. I feel, moreso than you do, that Suh is a huge component for our defense. And I understand there is limits on what we can pay him, and the decision is ultimately up to him.

But if I have to decide "well let's break up this defense and keep the financial stability(or chokehold lol) on offense" or "lets look for cuts on offense and keep this top defense together", the decision is easy for me.

 

[gandydancer]

When you talk about who is surrounding Suh. Thankfully the new CBA came out. That is not Suh's fault, but Ziggy and Fairley would have higher contracts.

Good lord, could you imagine the veins on Trustme's forehead if Ebron was getting old style top ten money? Goodgoogamooga his head would explode.

 

[TwoCents22]

I'm curious why you believe that is horrible comparison? Suh is only as good as the players surrounding him. I think that is evident in the fact, until we drafted Ansah and Taylor, Levy become an all pro type LB and Fairley is playing for a contract -- The Lions defense has never been a top 10 unit. As a matter of fact -- I believe since Suh has been on the Lions, we have only had one year in the top 15 (I think we were 13th) in total defense. I think last year was the best we had in scoring defense, coming in 15th.

Everyone sees the 1st 7 games this year and we are ready to call him the catalyst in the NFL top defense. He has been here for over 4 years and we haven't finished in the top 10 yet as a unit.

I just answered your first question. If a team has the choice between a star QB and star OG they will NEVER chose the OG unless they already have a QB. You can't say the same if a team has a choice between a star LB/DT/CB/DE. Some might lean towards DE, but again it definitely is not clear cut.

 

[gandydancer]

What came first the Suh or the Austin? Debate that forever, Suh is thriving in this defense. So now you have to actually look to future years not back IMO 22.

All the cogs are in line with this present unit. All working together with the scheme. Suh is a focal point though.

 

[gandydancer]

I just answered your first question. If a team has the choice between a star QB and star OG they will NEVER chose the OG unless they already have a QB. You can't say the same if a team has a choice between a star LB/DT/CB/DE. Some might lean towards DE, but again it definitely is not clear cut.

I agree, you can build from back to front or vice versa. Seattle does not need Suh up front. Just Sherman alone does not make that defense work. 3 of 4 are all pro back there. Surely helps the front seven. Just as the front seven is helping the back four in Detroit. Suh is major reason for the front seven being dominant IMO.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Not that i am supporting 20 mil a year for Suh, but it isnt his fault the defense had been so bad previously. I think a lot of that was coaching and scheme. Austin is using the same players + digbo and without Tulloch and doing insanely more production.

I will agree with the change of scheme helping the defense as a whole. I guess Detroit would have to weigh, how much is it the new scheme and how much is it Suh? We've had Suh for four seasons prior -- we've only had Austin this year.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Good lord, could you imagine the veins on Trustme's forehead if Ebron was getting old style top ten money? Goodgoogamooga his head would explode.

It'd take me about 15-20 minutes to jog to the Lions headquarters. I would have been jogging down Southfield Expressway with a sniper rifle and I would have picked off Mayhew in the employee parking lot to save them the hassle of firing him.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

You can't say the same if a team has a choice between a star LB/DT/CB/DE. Some might lean towards DE, but again it definitely is not clear cut.

I guess I see the DT position differently. It is important, but there is a reason why LB's CB's and DE's make the big money and DT are down the list.

Suh has been all-pro 3 of 4 years. In the last 3 years -- he has averaged 40 tackles and 5.5 sacks. In 4 years he has forced 2 fumbles and only has 23 stuffs (to put it in perspective -- JJ Watt had 23 stuffs in 2012 alone). To me -- that isn't someone you make the highest paid player in the NFL. If Suh put up 60+ tackles with double digit sacks, as he did his rookie year -- I could get on board.

His strength is rushing the passer and he has just been adequate against the run, but has improved in that area, thanks to the addition of some solid run stopping DE's and the emergence of Levy, as well as the new scheme.

 

[lionstop1]

The last thing the Lions should do is panic and over-extend themselves and pay a DT way too much money.

I often wonder why all of the business aspects of things are left out when we talk about this stuff. Trustme, has hit on a little bit of it when he states position value and such. Those things are real and as far as business goes, theyre going to pay the most important peices of the system. But some "businesses" make huge mistakes within their investments so its very important that things are handled properly, as Dr. Eviler has expressed time after time with this issue.

A lot will ride on the outcome this season and how far the Lions go. These players want money but they also want to be in a winning enviornment, with a solid foundation (front office, coaches, etc.). If the Lions make the playoffs and make a solid run, things get just a little easier in my mind as far as easing some of the fear (if there is any) of staying with the team.

The Lions will offer both Suh and Fairley reasonable contracts (ones they can afford). I think Fairley's will have some performance incentives included in it, while Suh's could potentially be around 15 million a year. Both players will have suitors but that doesnt mean they dash. Both players are fighting for large contracts, in hopes that teams offer outrageous numbers (moreso Suh). I doubt Suh gets the exact situation he's looking for and he will have to decide whether Detroit is the best place for him. I could see Fairley leaving before Suh does.

I think the Lions part ways with Bush, Tulloch and Sims at seasons end, making it easier for them to offer contracts. That, or someone from this group is asked to restructure. I think the odds of keeping Suh comes down to how far they go and the culture in Detroit. I wouldn't pay him outlandish numbers and I dont think the team will either.

 

[TwoCents22]

The last thing the Lions should do is panic and over-extend themselves and pay a DT way too much money.

I often wonder why all of the business aspects of things are left out when we talk about this stuff. Trustme, has hit on a little bit of it when he states position value and such.
.

Because sometime the "positional value" thing is overblown do to media perception. It started to snowball ever since Nnamdi. The Raiders tagged him I think twice, and then he was due a huge amount, and everyone said "No corner deserves $16 mil a season". Fast forward, the top corners are getting paid that.

Same thing with the Tight End. No Tight End is making huge money, so everyone says "No tight end should make WR money". Like that makes sense at all. You really think Calvin Johnson has double the effect as Jimmy Graham? Now you got people saying Ebron was a bad pick because the value of a TE is diminished.

It's like people think "well, you'd rather have a top 15 WR than a top 15 TE, wouldn't you?". When the Lions drafted Ebron I'm sure they weren't thinking "I hope he turns into Coby Fleener". They draft a TE at 10 for the potential to make a huge impact, not to be an average player at his position.

But back to the Suh thing. Yes it's up to him. No I wouldn't pay him $20 mil per season. But yes I would pay him exactly how Dr-Eviler suggests, and even offer a little more. If Suh signs a huge deal elsewhere, I won't be upset. But if he signs a contract I know damn well the Lions were offering, he will instantly become one of my least favorite players.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

"No tight end should make WR money". Like that makes sense at all. You really think Calvin Johnson has double the effect as Jimmy Graham? Now you got people saying Ebron was a bad pick because the value of a TE is diminished.

Who is saying no TE should make WR money? If a TE like Graham and Gronkowski are putting up WR numbers -- They ABSOLUTELY should make WR money. When Graham hits the open market -- he will get paid like a WR, because that is basically what he plays in the New Orleans system. Gronkowski will get paid too, though not as much, because of his injury history, but when healthy, he puts up WR type numbers.

If Suh were putting up DE type numbers as a DT -- I'd be all for breaking the bank. He simply does not though. 40 tackles and 5.5 sacks over the last 3 years isn't revolutionizing the DT position. Graham and Gronk have revolutionized the TE position by breaking all-time single season records in yardage and touchdowns.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

It's like people think "well, you'd rather have a top 15 WR than a top 15 TE, wouldn't you?". When the Lions drafted Ebron I'm sure they weren't thinking "I hope he turns into Coby Fleener". They draft a TE at 10 for the potential to make a huge impact, not to be an average player at his position.

Any team would take a top 15 WR over a top 15 TE. There is 15 elite WR's who are game changers. You can't really say the same about the TE position.

The reason I hated the Ebron pick is -- Only 2 TE's in the NFL would be worthy of a top 10 pick in the NFL draft, IMO. No need to say who it is, as it is obvious. I would say 3 could be argued if you wanted to include Thomas from Denver (but how much of that is Peyton, i don't know). When you are being put on a team with a clear cut #1 and #2 option at WR and 2 RB's who just became the 1st duo to have over 500 yards receiving in the same season -- his targets will be limited, so unless they plan on trying to trade Calvin Johnson or Golden Tate -- it just made no sense to me. It isn't that I hate Ebron -- I would have hated ANY TE drafted by the Lions at 10th overall. They had a chance to get an impact player elsewhere.

It has nothing to do with the pay scale for a TE or the importance of a TE to me. I just felt, in a draft deep at WR, Detroit could have drafted a really talented player at #10 and still had a high quality player to fill the #3 role. If they were set on getting a #3 -- The other 3 WR's drafted after Ebron have all been very good thus far. Benjamin has been really good as Carolina's #1. Cooks has been very good in the slot for New Orleans. Beckham was injured, but he has 3 TD's in 2 games.

To me -- the pick just made absolutely no sense, but it isn't the first time and won't be the last time they make a pick that doesn't make sense to me.

 

[lionstop1]

Thats another thing that should be looked at by us fans. What kind of loyalty will a guy like Suh show this team? I know most dont like it but at least Stafford and CJ have signed long-term deals and been willing to restructure when the team needed it. I think Suh did too but I forgot.

 

[tpaulus_2]

Who is saying no TE should make WR money? If a TE like Graham and Gronkowski are putting up WR numbers -- They ABSOLUTELY should make WR money. When Graham hits the open market -- he will get paid like a WR, because that is basically what he plays in the New Orleans system. Gronkowski will get paid too, though not as much, because of his injury history, but when healthy, he puts up WR type numbers.

If Suh were putting up DE type numbers as a DT -- I'd be all for breaking the bank. He simply does not though. 40 tackles and 5.5 sacks over the last 3 years isn't revolutionizing the DT position. Graham and Gronk have revolutionized the TE position by breaking all-time single season records in yardage and touchdowns.

You really need to learn how to use Google, man. This whole taking a wild stab at the stats you think you remember technique just isn't working.

Suh has had 16.5 sacks 103 tackles over the last 3 seasons, counting 2012, 2013, and 7 games of 2014 so far. Suh had better numbers last season alone than you're trying to say he had in the last 3.

If you're going to use stats to show what you perceive to be the limited impact a player has had, at least use the right stats. If you have to purposely diminish his numbers, I think that kind of proves the opposite of the point you were trying to make...

 

[tpaulus_2]

Any team would take a top 15 WR over a top 15 TE. There is 15 elite WR's who are game changers. You can't really say the same about the TE position.

The reason I hated the Ebron pick is -- Only 2 TE's in the NFL would be worthy of a top 10 pick in the NFL draft, IMO. No need to say who it is, as it is obvious. I would say 3 could be argued if you wanted to include Thomas from Denver (but how much of that is Peyton, i don't know). When you are being put on a team with a clear cut #1 and #2 option at WR and 2 RB's who just became the 1st duo to have over 500 yards receiving in the same season -- his targets will be limited, so unless they plan on trying to trade Calvin Johnson or Golden Tate -- it just made no sense to me. It isn't that I hate Ebron -- I would have hated ANY TE drafted by the Lions at 10th overall. They had a chance to get an impact player elsewhere.

It has nothing to do with the pay scale for a TE or the importance of a TE to me. I just felt, in a draft deep at WR, Detroit could have drafted a really talented player at #10 and still had a high quality player to fill the #3 role. If they were set on getting a #3 -- The other 3 WR's drafted after Ebron have all been very good thus far. Benjamin has been really good as Carolina's #1. Cooks has been very good in the slot for New Orleans. Beckham was injured, but he has 3 TD's in 2 games.

To me -- the pick just made absolutely no sense, but it isn't the first time and won't be the last time they make a pick that doesn't make sense to me.

So what about when I debunked that theory by showing that Ebron could easily rack up 100 targets in this offense? Remember? It was pretty basic stuff, really. I just took Stafford's average number of passing attempts over the last 3 years and divided those up equally among his targets. The numbers show that 100 targets is not even remotely out of the question, so the theory that he can't make an impact here due to limited opportunities just doesn't hold any water.

 

[TwoCents22]

Who is saying no TE should make WR money?

Man, your are either difficult to debate with, or difficult to understand. Your last 2 posts, you agreed with my point in your first sentence, and then proceeded to argue against my point in the next 2 paragraphs.

I think as soon as I brought up the tight end thing, you felt I was personally attacking you personally. Not the case, man. I agree that if a TE has the impact of a WR, he should get paid accordingly. The whole media perception is what I was referring to about people saying TE shouldn't be paid like a WR, not you. I don't remember anyone saying Graham should be paid like Calvin Johnson. They were saying he should be paid in between Calvin and the top paid TE.

Then about the top 15 WR vs the top 15 TE thing, yes, you are exactly right. We'll all take the WR. That was exactly my point, again. That's how people view the TE at 10th pick. My point was that the Lions weren't looking to draft a top 15 TE when they took Ebron.

Maybe I'm just difficult to understand? Or you want to argue? I'll take the blame, man, seriously. I wasn't trying to rehash the whole Ebron debate.

 

[tpaulus_2]

So I've been informed that TrustMe's numbers on Suh are his average for the last three years, not totals. My bad, but it also didn't read that way at all. I was reading last-post backwards, so I didn't see that post where he referenced that average until after I had commented...

 

[gvsulaker82]

Who is saying no TE should make WR money? If a TE like Graham and Gronkowski are putting up WR numbers -- They ABSOLUTELY should make WR money. When Graham hits the open market -- he will get paid like a WR, because that is basically what he plays in the New Orleans system. Gronkowski will get paid too, though not as much, because of his injury history, but when healthy, he puts up WR type numbers.

If Suh were putting up DE type numbers as a DT -- I'd be all for breaking the bank. He simply does not though. 40 tackles and 5.5 sacks over the last 3 years isn't revolutionizing the DT position. Graham and Gronk have revolutionized the TE position by breaking all-time single season records in yardage and touchdowns.

Suh is providing much more than sacks this year. I believe I read somewhere that hes number one at DT for combined sacks, hurries, knockdowns on QB. Hes just coming into his prime, the lions defense is elite and much of that can be directly attributed to how powerful suh is. He constantly requires double teams, he stuffs the run all day long. Im not saying hes the only guy doing it on the defense but imo the most important. So yes, hes definitely worth a huge contract. In the next five years he will put up ridonkulous numbers at DT, lets just hope its for detroit.