so here is the deal concerning KC

[skinsdad62]

what will it take to make the guy a fair offer ? the next step in the teams evolution should be a playoff win . that would mean a 3rd consecutive winning season (over 2 decades for that ) and a playoff win (12 years since that happened .

that is the only fair way to look at this in my opinion from a team standpoint . we are building . so far we have concentrated on offense with the defense lagging and it has shown in our play . now we have started to really upgrade the defense . it started with signing DJ and moving cravens to safety . it continued by drafting Allen . and we finished up by signing brown . we need more depth and probably one more good draft to get this defense to be a viable playoff winning defense year in and year out

so here is the deal . if KC and the team do what i have mentioned above are you willing to "overpay to keep him " ? this is a possibility since our FO has bungled this from day one .

i will stick this thread so we can refer back to it but as we have seen the price keeps on rising as the team bets on his failure . we could have had him for 12 mil APY then 16 APY then 20 AVY year but instead have preferred to pay him 20 mil and 24 mil guaranteed with the expectation that 28 -34 is next

are you VT , dean , coach , mitz , or any other wait and see'r willing to pay that cost if the TEAM does what i have mentioned above ? truth be told i wont really listen to an argument against resigning him or in deans case "blank checking " him if you are saying "wait and see " and the team performs as outlined above .

each and every year i have stated if you wait on a LTD and dont get it done then you have to accept the consequences of paying more . So do you or dont you ?

If he walks are you willing to accept that the team will be set back in its goal to be a long term contender ?
do you expect that colt Mccoy might actually last a full season for the first time in his career at age 31 as being a starter that will move the team as a whole a step further , say a championship game (NFC) , the next natural progression to achieve ?
do you expect nate sudfeld to accomplish the same task ? or are you happy with treading water for a season or 2 ?
i ask the questions because the goal shouldnt be about "treading water " but making the team better . does letting him go make us better ? do we go to a sam bradford or drew brees or grap or bridgewater and expect a step up ? mccarron ? mcgloin ? will we take a step up with them ?

the last option is drafting a rookie and the 1-5 chance a 1st round rookie pans out . do you EXPECT said rookie to come in year one and rattle off a championship game appearance ? again i am asking for the next logical step in the progression. i personally feel he will need 2 years at the very least to do it and more then likely 3 . are you guys willing to accept that as a consequence of all of this ?

now its all fine and dandy if colt and nate pull it off. its great if we get a good FA qb and he pulls it off , its great if a rookie comes in and pulls it off but are you willing to accept a team set back if they dont ?

i dont bet on KC's failure but if we did sign him to a LTD and he fails to get us to a superbowl then i am willing to accept that as a possible outcome .

so here is your chance to go on record without the tap dancing now and tell us what you are thinking and why .

 

[Sportster 72]

shark has been saying this for some time and I have been hoping (why I do not know) that the team at some point would realize it is better to pay now then to wait until later. Another successful season and he just might not be affordable. This is what shark has been saying all along. The FO has stalled this until they can try to lay the blame on Cousin's. In all honesty if they had wanted him they would have signed him a long time ago.

But what the hell there are still 17 minutes left to get a deal done.

 

[Caliskinsfan]

But what the hell there are still 17 minutes left to get a deal done.

 

[eaglesnut]

You guys should totally pay him the 15 mil it would take to retain him...

You guys should totally pay him the 18 mil it would take to retain him...

You guys should totally pay him the 21 mil it would take to retain him...

You guys should totally pay him the 25 mil it would take to retain him...

 

[Buffalo_Nickel_1]

what will it take to make the guy a fair offer ? the next step in the teams evolution should be a playoff win . that would mean a 3rd consecutive winning season (over 2 decades for that ) and a playoff win (12 years since that happened .

that is the only fair way to look at this in my opinion from a team standpoint . we are building . so far we have concentrated on offense with the defense lagging and it has shown in our play . now we have started to really upgrade the defense . it started with signing DJ and moving cravens to safety . it continued by drafting Allen . and we finished up by signing brown . we need more depth and probably one more good draft to get this defense to be a viable playoff winning defense year in and year out

so here is the deal . if KC and the team do what i have mentioned above are you willing to "overpay to keep him " ? this is a possibility since our FO has bungled this from day one .

i will stick this thread so we can refer back to it but as we have seen the price keeps on rising as the team bets on his failure . we could have had him for 12 mil APY then 16 APY then 20 AVY year but instead have preferred to pay him 20 mil and 24 mil guaranteed with the expectation that 28 -34 is next

are you VT , dean , coach , mitz , or any other wait and see'r willing to pay that cost if the TEAM does what i have mentioned above ? truth be told i wont really listen to an argument against resigning him or in deans case "blank checking " him if you are saying "wait and see " and the team performs as outlined above .

each and every year i have stated if you wait on a LTD and dont get it done then you have to accept the consequences of paying more . So do you or dont you ?
best thread .. im burned out on CK
If he walks are you willing to accept that the team will be set back in its goal to be a long term contender ?
do you expect that colt Mccoy might actually last a full season for the first time in his career at age 31 as being a starter that will move the team as a whole a step further , say a championship game (NFC) , the next natural progression to achieve ?
do you expect nate sudfeld to accomplish the same task ? or are you happy with treading water for a season or 2 ?
i ask the questions because the goal shouldnt be about "treading water " but making the team better . does letting him go make us better ? do we go to a sam bradford or drew brees or grap or bridgewater and expect a step up ? mccarron ? mcgloin ? will we take a step up with them ?

the last option is drafting a rookie and the 1-5 chance a 1st round rookie pans out . do you EXPECT said rookie to come in year one and rattle off a championship game appearance ? again i am asking for the next logical step in the progression. i personally feel he will need 2 years at the very least to do it and more then likely 3 . are you guys willing to accept that as a consequence of all of this ?

now its all fine and dandy if colt and nate pull it off. its great if we get a good FA qb and he pulls it off , its great if a rookie comes in and pulls it off but are you willing to accept a team set back if they dont ?

i dont bet on KC's failure but if we did sign him to a LTD and he fails to get us to a superbowl then i am willing to accept that as a possible outcome .

so here is your chance to go on record without the tap dancing now and tell us what you are thinking and why .

 

[Buffalo_Nickel_1]

good statement right there

 

[reptec101]

A behind the back photo of Snyder when telling the media today how he hopes Kirk Cousins has a successful year.

 

[skinsdad62]

you all can say what you want about coach but at least he had the freaking sack to come here and put up or shut up . so far crickets from the rest who have been posting all day ( some havent )

 

[Iggloo]

 

[Stymietee]

[QUOTE Skinsdad......you wrote:



what will it take to make the guy a fair offer ?

"Fair is a relative term, I believe that Kirk was offered what his value in this offense was 2 years ago. Now there will be some who will say, " then explain why they continued to tag him and pay increasing amounts under the tag." A fair question, short answer, This like every other organization except the Packers is a privately owned business that operated within the bounds of a CBA. That contract set the limits of a player being tagged, but has no influence with regards to how much this privately held business wants to pay otherwise.

the next step in the teams evolution should be a playoff win . that would mean a 3rd consecutive winning season (over 2 decades for that ) and a playoff win (12 years since that happened .

Agreed, there's nothing that has changed that, the organization is still building / rebuilding the team.

That is the only fair way to look at this in my opinion from a team standpoint . we are building . so far we have concentrated on offense with the defense lagging and it has shown in our play . now we have started to really upgrade the defense . it started with signing DJ and moving cravens to safety . it continued by drafting Allen . and we finished up by signing brown . we need more depth and probably one more good draft to get this defense to be a viable playoff winning defense year in and year out

The offensive line remains the same, those changes/improvements defensively don't go away, and I'm willing to bet barring health, that Perine becomes the featured back in an vastly improved running attack. The rebuild continues.




so here is the deal . if KC and the team do what i have mentioned above are you willing to "overpay to keep him " ? this is a possibility since our FO has bungled this from day one .

Answer...Absolutely NOT, over paying is just that, over paying. No different than over paying for fat Albert, Deion, Archuletta and the others.

i will stick this thread so we can refer back to it but as we have seen the price keeps on rising as the team bets on his failure . we could have had him for 12 mil APY then 16 APY then 20 AVY year but instead have preferred to pay him 20 mil and 24 mil guaranteed with the expectation that 28 -34 is next

That is a myth, NO ONE is betting on his failure. What's actually happening is a player over valuing himself and an organization undervaluing that same player. It's business, nothing more, nothing less.

are you VT , dean , coach , mitz , or any other wait and see'r willing to pay that cost if the TEAM does what i have mentioned above ? truth be told i wont really listen to an argument against resigning him or in deans case "blank checking " him if you are saying "wait and see " and the team performs as outlined above.

I'm not a "wait and see member, however, looking back who now disagrees with what I said after the failed negotiation after the 2015 season? I:E, there's not going to be a LTD and we had better be prepared to find a replacement.

Yes Bruce and Dan are twin dumbasses, not because they didn't come to terms with Kirk, but because IMO, they didn't have an alternative, and continued to pay tag money, depending ONLY on hope that Kirk would come around.

BTW: if the team performs as you've outlined, as everyone has pointed out time and again, it will be because the improvements were effective.



each and every year i have stated if you wait on a LTD and dont get it done then you have to accept the consequences of paying more . So do you or dont you ?

If the floor is 24M this year and 28-30 something next year........NOPE. The organization has done their evaluation of Kirk and placed their own value on him. I'm hoping that we can all agree, right now, that it is crystal clear that they have and had NO (zero) intentions of going above that set value in these last 3 seasons. What does that mean? tell you in a minute.

If he walks are you willing to accept that the team will be set back in its goal to be a long term contender ?
do you expect that colt Mccoy might actually last a full season for the first time in his career at age 31 as being a starter that will move the team as a whole a step further , say a championship game (NFC) , the next natural progression to achieve ?

do you expect nate sudfeld to accomplish the same task ? or are you happy with treading water for a season or 2 ?

Answer.... NOT AT ALL, I don't accept that at all. Depending on who the replacement is, there won't be a step back at all. It is very likely that we may soon be comparing Gruden and his ability to win with different QB's to another former HC here. To be honest, what Gruden has done has been to take our version of Andy Dalton and gave a desperate, thirsty flock some hope. That's not to say that Kirk is not a pretty good player, I totally get that, but given the circumstances and this offense, pretty good is far easier to replace than "Elite."

BTW: I have no confidence in either Sudfield nor McCoy.

i ask the questions because the goal shouldnt be about "treading water " but making the team better . does letting him go make us better ? do we go to a sam bradford or drew brees or grap or bridgewater and expect a step up ? mccarron ? mcgloin ? will we take a step up with them ?

Agreed, and based upon what you and others have written, the team is still being rebuilt, not "treading water." You give me a vastly improved defense, a better running game ant this offensive system with the current players intact with the right guy ( you know who I prefer) and I'll give you a vastly improved team.

Understand this if you might, to me it is just a plain unconvincing argument when people write that a better defense adds another two or three wins, our two new wideouts produces, and our running game causes concern by other teams.....that without this particular QB, they ain't shit. I have yet to read where anyone here is saying that Kirk is "elite" and a concern for other teams. Clearly we don't need "elite" would it be nice to have a guy like that? Absolutely!! So let me ask..... Given the fact that we currently have a pretty good QB, here's your list.... Sam Bradford, Drew Brees, Grap, Bridgewater, McCarron, Mcgloin....with the exception of possibly Bradford and/or Mcgloin, which ones are not pretty good QB's? Hasn't Gruden already proven that he can take a "pretty good QB" and make his system work? What's it going to take to convince you all that those back to back winning seasons, the record setting performances and everything else, all coincidentally happened with Gruden at the helm? BTW: he's got to step up as well!!

the last option is drafting a rookie and the 1-5 chance a 1st round rookie pans out . do you EXPECT said rookie to come in year one and rattle off a championship game appearance ? again i am asking for the next logical step in the progression. i personally feel he will need 2 years at the very least to do it and more then likely 3 . are you guys willing to accept that as a consequence of all of this ?

This is getting sadder by the moment, If the team goes that route, I'll certainly be disappointed, and that would NOT be something new for me to experience with this team. However, if they do, it will ONLY be because Dan wants to mimic Jerrah I:E Dak. The Only way that happens is if we have two blossoming stars at wideout, Perine balls out and we have a top 3 Oline.

 

[skinsdad62]

[QUOTE Skinsdad......you wrote:



what will it take to make the guy a fair offer ?

"Fair is a relative term, I believe that Kirk was offered what his value in this offense was 2 years ago. Now there will be some who will say, " then explain why they continued to tag him and pay increasing amounts under the tag." A fair question, short answer, This like every other organization except the Packers is a privately owned business that operated within the bounds of a CBA. That contract set the limits of a player being tagged, but has no influence with regards to how much this privately held business wants to pay otherwise.

the next step in the teams evolution should be a playoff win . that would mean a 3rd consecutive winning season (over 2 decades for that ) and a playoff win (12 years since that happened .

Agreed, there's nothing that has changed that, the organization is still building / rebuilding the team.

That is the only fair way to look at this in my opinion from a team standpoint . we are building . so far we have concentrated on offense with the defense lagging and it has shown in our play . now we have started to really upgrade the defense . it started with signing DJ and moving cravens to safety . it continued by drafting Allen . and we finished up by signing brown . we need more depth and probably one more good draft to get this defense to be a viable playoff winning defense year in and year out

The offensive line remains the same, those changes/improvements defensively don't go away, and I'm willing to bet barring health, that Perine becomes the featured back in an vastly improved running attack. The rebuild continues.




so here is the deal . if KC and the team do what i have mentioned above are you willing to "overpay to keep him " ? this is a possibility since our FO has bungled this from day one .

Answer...Absolutely NOT, over paying is just that, over paying. No different than over paying for fat Albert, Deion, Archuletta and the others.

i will stick this thread so we can refer back to it but as we have seen the price keeps on rising as the team bets on his failure . we could have had him for 12 mil APY then 16 APY then 20 AVY year but instead have preferred to pay him 20 mil and 24 mil guaranteed with the expectation that 28 -34 is next

That is a myth, NO ONE is betting on his failure. What's actually happening is a player over valuing himself and an organization undervaluing that same player. It's business, nothing more, nothing less.

are you VT , dean , coach , mitz , or any other wait and see'r willing to pay that cost if the TEAM does what i have mentioned above ? truth be told i wont really listen to an argument against resigning him or in deans case "blank checking " him if you are saying "wait and see " and the team performs as outlined above.

I'm not a "wait and see member, however, looking back who now disagrees with what I said after the failed negotiation after the 2015 season? I:E, there's not going to be a LTD and we had better be prepared to find a replacement.

Yes Bruce and Dan are twin dumbasses, not because they didn't come to terms with Kirk, but because IMO, they didn't have an alternative, and continued to pay tag money, depending ONLY on hope that Kirk would come around.

BTW: if the team performs as you've outlined, as everyone has pointed out time and again, it will be because the improvements were effective.



each and every year i have stated if you wait on a LTD and dont get it done then you have to accept the consequences of paying more . So do you or dont you ?

If the floor is 24M this year and 28-30 something next year........NOPE. The organization has done their evaluation of Kirk and placed their own value on him. I'm hoping that we can all agree, right now, that it is crystal clear that they have and had NO (zero) intentions of going above that set value in these last 3 seasons. What does that mean? tell you in a minute.

If he walks are you willing to accept that the team will be set back in its goal to be a long term contender ?
do you expect that colt Mccoy might actually last a full season for the first time in his career at age 31 as being a starter that will move the team as a whole a step further , say a championship game (NFC) , the next natural progression to achieve ?

do you expect nate sudfeld to accomplish the same task ? or are you happy with treading water for a season or 2 ?

Answer.... NOT AT ALL, I don't accept that at all. Depending on who the replacement is, there won't be a step back at all. It is very likely that we may soon be comparing Gruden and his ability to win with different QB's to another former HC here. To be honest, what Gruden has done has been to take our version of Andy Dalton and gave a desperate, thirsty flock some hope. That's not to say that Kirk is not a pretty good player, I totally get that, but given the circumstances and this offense, pretty good is far easier to replace than "Elite."

BTW: I have no confidence in either Sudfield nor McCoy.

i ask the questions because the goal shouldnt be about "treading water " but making the team better . does letting him go make us better ? do we go to a sam bradford or drew brees or grap or bridgewater and expect a step up ? mccarron ? mcgloin ? will we take a step up with them ?

Agreed, and based upon what you and others have written, the team is still being rebuilt, not "treading water." You give me a vastly improved defense, a better running game ant this offensive system with the current players intact with the right guy ( you know who I prefer) and I'll give you a vastly improved team.

Understand this if you might, to me it is just a plain unconvincing argument when people write that a better defense adds another two or three wins, our two new wideouts produces, and our running game causes concern by other teams.....that without this particular QB, they ain't shit. I have yet to read where anyone here is saying that Kirk is "elite" and a concern for other teams. Clearly we don't need "elite" would it be nice to have a guy like that? Absolutely!! So let me ask..... Given the fact that we currently have a pretty good QB, here's your list.... Sam Bradford, Drew Brees, Grap, Bridgewater, McCarron, Mcgloin....with the exception of possibly Bradford and/or Mcgloin, which ones are not pretty good QB's? Hasn't Gruden already proven that he can take a "pretty good QB" and make his system work? What's it going to take to convince you all that those back to back winning seasons, the record setting performances and everything else, all coincidentally happened with Gruden at the helm? BTW: he's got to step up as well!!

the last option is drafting a rookie and the 1-5 chance a 1st round rookie pans out . do you EXPECT said rookie to come in year one and rattle off a championship game appearance ? again i am asking for the next logical step in the progression. i personally feel he will need 2 years at the very least to do it and more then likely 3 . are you guys willing to accept that as a consequence of all of this ?

This is getting sadder by the moment, If the team goes that route, I'll certainly be disappointed, and that would NOT be something new for me to experience with this team. However, if they do, it will ONLY be because Dan wants to mimic Jerrah I:E Dak. The Only way that happens is if we have two blossoming stars at wideout, Perine balls out and we have a top 3 Oline.

look if you buy the FO 's evaluation then you arent up to snuff on todays NFL landscape when it comes to qbs . and of course we will take a step back with a draft pick or a young avg qb like AJ , grap , mcgloin . our team moves forward the fastest with KC under center , good post though

 

[Sleepy T]

you all can say what you want about coach but at least he had the freaking sack to come here and put up or shut up . so far crickets from the rest who have been posting all day ( some havent )

First off, GREAT post by Stymie. You made some really good points there. The main one being...the front office has set a value on KC and KC has set a value on himself. The true value is probably somewhere in between, and neither side is budging.

So to answer your question sdad. No, I'm not significantly overpaying him simply because we don't have another really good option right now. Right now, he looks like a system QB, albeit a really good one, and can and would be replaced fairly easily.

Now, if he goes out this year, makes big plays when he needs too, doesn't make bad decisions in crunch time, puts the team on his back like elite QBs do. All with less talent at the WR position. I'm laughing already at the spin already being put out on KC w/out Pierre and D-Jax. People already making excuses for his stats going down. If he can do all of that, then my opinion will change. Is it all on him? No and it shouldn't be. But it is mostly on him. He wants to get the biggest contract in history...go out and prove you are worth it.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

So to answer your question sdad. No, I'm not significantly overpaying him simply because we don't have another really good option right now. Right now, he looks like a system QB, albeit a really good one, and can and would be replaced fairly easily.

Whatever you say chief. You must not have been paying much attn. to the Redskins during the last 20 years to be making a statement like this. You must have forgotten the likes of Grossman, Brunnell, Campbell, McNabb, Beck & even RG3 (save for 1 year). Yep - the Redskins are the type of organization that can easily find a QB to do well in their organization -

 

[Sleepy T]

Whatever you say chief. You must not have been paying much attn. to the Redskins during the last 20 years to be making a statement like this. You must have forgotten the likes of Grossman, Brunnell, Campbell, McNabb, Beck & even RG3 (save for 1 year). Yep - the Redskins are the type of organization that can easily find a QB to do well in their organization -

Um K. Hope he does well. But our terrible run on QBs over the last couple decades has some of you folks in straight up desperation mode and has clouded your judgment. Didn't post in the other thread, but Gruden probably has as much to do with Cousins' success as he himself does.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

Um K. Hope he does well. But our terrible run on QBs over the last couple decades has some of you folks in straight up desperation mode and has clouded your judgment. Didn't post in the other thread, but Gruden probably has as much to do with Cousins' success as he himself does.

Fair pt & I addressed that in another thread. The most likely (& almost the only) route to getting a good replacement is via the draft. Even if Gruden does a good job it will likely take time as opposed to Cousins who is in full swing with this offense (& yes has some issues to address). I also have no faith that the FO will retain Gruden if things get a little rocky - they have shown that they have loyalty to nobody except themselves & certainly don't give a crap about the fans.

Hopefully - this still works out OK & they can find a way to keep Cousins even after this season - but it will cost them quite a bit more $$ even if it happens.

 

[Sportster 72]

Um K. Hope he does well. But our terrible run on QBs over the last couple decades has some of you folks in straight up desperation mode and has clouded your judgment. Didn't post in the other thread, but Gruden probably has as much to do with Cousins' success as he himself does.

It is either that or we think you don't know your (_)_) from a hole in the ground. But what the hell, everyone is entitled to an opinion. I am desperate hence the need for this answer.

 

[skinsdad62]

yeah lets let a PB qb walk ! great ! he has a top 6 qbr 2 years running but that sucks , he has guided us to 2 back to back winning seasons not good enough , he led the biggest come back in out team history but he isnt clutch enough , forgetting several games he did just that . he won 4 must games in a row that put us in the playoffs (forgot that i suppose ) det , cincy he did it but the defnse and ST botched it .

your bias shows right through

 

[fastforward]

Cousins was guaranteed $23.9M this year under the tag. The Redskins wanted to extend that deal by 5 years but they weren't willing to guarantee the 1st 2 of the 5 additional years? Seriously? I can see why Cousins didn't bother with a counter offer.

 

[Stymietee]

look if you buy the FO 's evaluation then you arent up to snuff on todays NFL landscape when it comes to qbs . and of course we will take a step back with a draft pick or a young avg qb like AJ , grap , mcgloin . our team moves forward the fastest with KC under center , good post though

I said this after the post 2015 season negotiations with Kirk failed...."Kirk is not the future here"

I said this after the post 2016 season negotiations with Kirk failed...."Kirk is not the future here"

.....And I'm saying this again...."Kirk is not the future here"

Question is how do we proceed without him in place? You specifically asked for an alternative, I remember correctly your challenge was "give me (you) a name," I did exactly that, granted we might not get the same production that Kirk gave us, there's a real possibility that we become better though based on my research. The one thing that s becoming increasingly clear though is the #8 car will, sooner rather than later, be wearing different colors. #Bruceisadick.

 

[skinsdad62]

I said this after the post 2015 season negotiations with Kirk failed...."Kirk is not the future here"

I said this after the post 2016 season negotiations with Kirk failed...."Kirk is not the future here"

.....And I'm saying this again...."Kirk is not the future here"

Question is how do we proceed without him in place? You specifically asked for an alternative, I remember correctly your challenge was "give me (you) a name," I did exactly that, granted we might not get the same production that Kirk gave us, there's a real possibility that we become better though based on my research. The one thing that s becoming increasingly clear though is the #8 car will, sooner rather than later, be wearing different colors. #Bruceisadick.

the thing is he shouldnt be leaving that is the whole thing . this guy is what we have been looking for , for 2 decades and i dont buy you can plug just anyone in there and get the same or better production . and that is what we want , to move forward not tread water at 500 or take a step back and be the houston texans of the past few years

now all that being said if you are asking me which way to go the i say trot out colt , forget about sign his equals AJ , hoyer , mccown , grap, mcgloin and hope you hit on a qb without trading up with good draft capitol we could use elsewhere

we made a whole now we didnt have at qb , so upgrades on defense will get pushed aside until the qb is found