Shark listen to this

[skinsdad62]

this team is a few drafts away from being a year in and year out contender . if a trade is worked out i have no issue with it

my issue is people keep trying to sell me on a 3rd down pass rusher , a drug addict , murphy part 2 , and a man with no position are better then a stud RT or OG at the worst and then want to change the debate to something else like a trade down when they cant make their player work

they sight pundits as draft gods and out of work GMs who failed in their roles as they final say on anything

then when the draft happens most of the time their predictions are garbage and they are back tracking

if i had a dime for every time player X cant play this position in the NFL and then he proves he can i would be rich

how many "experts" told me drew brees was to small and frail to make it ? how many told me Rg3 was the "new breed trendsetter "? how many even heard of AM ? they told me brady was a 6th round afterthought and frederick was a 3rd rounder . welker was too small whitten to slow , taylor mays was a HOF 'r landry a game changer

the list goes on and on

vernon gholston draft grade reads like the next coming and does dion jordan but a redskins fan ecthes it in stone that scherf "cant play RT and no one thinks he can " as gospel because charlie casserly , a failed GM says so

pick a draft guru , kiper mcshay mayock davis miller , etc and their predictions are no better then mine

my last 3 drafts i had us picking 3 guys a year that we actually took . the others got one at best

shoot mcshay was pimping ray to us but "hadnt studied him " really ?

i get talked about value and ferrari's and civics when the comparison is more like a charger and a challenger

my god its a huge grand canyon sized reach to pick the alleged 9th best player overall at 5 because by god we could have had an extra 4th rounder and a 3rd down pass rush specialist

i get told that moses is a 1st round graded steal when we pick him up and he cant get out of his stance to make a block and appears heading to the scrap heap

i can be very wrong on scherf . but dont sell me some crap about how these "experts " are demi gods that need to be taken at their word and followed like we are a bunch of mindless saps

 

[Sharkinva]

this team is a few drafts away from being a year in and year out contender . if a trade is worked out i have no issue with it

my issue is people keep trying to sell me on a 3rd down pass rusher , a drug addict , murphy part 2 , and a man with no position are better then a stud RT or OG at the worst and then want to change the debate to something else like a trade down when they cant make their player work

they sight pundits as draft gods and out of work GMs who failed in their roles as they final say on anything

then when the draft happens most of the time their predictions are garbage and they are back tracking

if i had a dime for every time player X cant play this position in the NFL and then he proves he can i would be rich

how many "experts" told me drew brees was to small and frail to make it ? how many told me Rg3 was the "new breed trendsetter "? how many even heard of AM ? they told me brady was a 6th round afterthought and frederick was a 3rd rounder . welker was too small whitten to slow , taylor mays was a HOF 'r landry a game changer

the list goes on and on

vernon gholston draft grade reads like the next coming and does dion jordan but a redskins fan ecthes it in stone that scherf "cant play RT and no one thinks he can " as gospel because charlie casserly , a failed GM says so

pick a draft guru , kiper mcshay mayock davis miller , etc and their predictions are no better then mine

my last 3 drafts i had us picking 3 guys a year that we actually took . the others got one at best

shoot mcshay was pimping ray to us but "hadnt studied him " really ?

i get talked about value and ferrari's and civics when the comparison is more like a charger and a challenger

my god its a huge grand canyon sized reach to pick the alleged 9th best player overall at 5 because by god we could have had an extra 4th rounder and a 3rd down pass rush specialist

i get told that moses is a 1st round graded steal when we pick him up and he cant get out of his stance to make a block and appears heading to the scrap heap

i can be very wrong on scherf . but dont sell me some crap about how these "experts " are demi gods that need to be taken at their word and followed like we are a bunch of mindless saps

 

[j_y19]

this team is a few drafts away from being a year in and year out contender . if a trade is worked out i have no issue with it

my issue is people keep trying to sell me on a 3rd down pass rusher , a drug addict , murphy part 2 , and a man with no position are better then a stud RT or OG at the worst and then want to change the debate to something else like a trade down when they cant make their player work

they sight pundits as draft gods and out of work GMs who failed in their roles as they final say on anything

then when the draft happens most of the time their predictions are garbage and they are back tracking

if i had a dime for every time player X cant play this position in the NFL and then he proves he can i would be rich

how many "experts" told me drew brees was to small and frail to make it ? how many told me Rg3 was the "new breed trendsetter "? how many even heard of AM ? they told me brady was a 6th round afterthought and frederick was a 3rd rounder . welker was too small whitten to slow , taylor mays was a HOF 'r landry a game changer

the list goes on and on

vernon gholston draft grade reads like the next coming and does dion jordan but a redskins fan ecthes it in stone that scherf "cant play RT and no one thinks he can " as gospel because charlie casserly , a failed GM says so

pick a draft guru , kiper mcshay mayock davis miller , etc and their predictions are no better then mine

my last 3 drafts i had us picking 3 guys a year that we actually took . the others got one at best

shoot mcshay was pimping ray to us but "hadnt studied him " really ?

i get talked about value and ferrari's and civics when the comparison is more like a charger and a challenger

my god its a huge grand canyon sized reach to pick the alleged 9th best player overall at 5 because by god we could have had an extra 4th rounder and a 3rd down pass rush specialist

i get told that moses is a 1st round graded steal when we pick him up and he cant get out of his stance to make a block and appears heading to the scrap heap

i can be very wrong on scherf . but dont sell me some crap about how these "experts " are demi gods that need to be taken at their word and followed like we are a bunch of mindless saps

Feel better? Curious.....where do you get your eval info from on schreff?

 

[skinsdad62]

Feel better? Curious.....where do you get your eval info from on schreff?

i see so i have to "feel better " because i dont agree with your position ?

i just posted a pro sherf evaluation from one of the same pundits who claim the OLBS are the next coming after he has sold you on their greatness

the lesson you all should learn ? they dont know anything more then you or i and will play both sides of the fence to sell a point

where did i get my eval on scherf ? the same place they did and i let my eyes determine it

i watched all available games all highlights and low lights and came to the conclusion that if we cant work a trade down then scherf is the BPA

if i hadnt i wouldnt be supporting shark because we went round and round on RG3 and all that BS

i made my own choice by researching it myself

 

[j_y19]

i see so i have to "feel better " because i dont agree with your position ?

i just posted a pro sherf evaluation from one of the same pundits who claim the OLBS are the next coming after he has sold you on their greatness

the lesson you all should learn ? they dont know anything more then you or i and will play both sides of the fence to sell a point

where did i get my eval on scherf ? the same place they did and i let my eyes determine it

i watched all available games all highlights and low lights and came to the conclusion that if we cant work a trade down then scherf is the BPA

if i hadnt i wouldnt be supporting shark because we went round and round on RG3 and all that BS

i made my own choice by researching it myself

Well that's the best way to do it. Let's face it, mock drafts are useless and are only done to get clicks on a website. However, there are some of these guys that are good at talent evaluation. We all have those that we trust more than others.
Let's also be real. To do real talent evaluation, it requires a crap load more information, time and access than you, I, or any poster on this forum have. So for any of us to declare an prospect a sure hit or a bust is laughable. If you notice, I never offer an evaluation on any prospect. I only cite what I have found in my research, any yes, much of that I rely on these experts that I believe in for the reasons I've stated above. My bone of contention with your post was the belittling of the opinions of those that you disagree with. None of us know crap about any of these guys so no one on this forum should act like their opinion is fact.

What is funny is this debate isn't even really about the same thing for both sides. One side sees a specific player,Schreff, as the BPA at 5. The other is arguing you don't reach for any player at 5 wo is rated 4-6 slots higher. Now at one point, you did say that a 4 slot gap wasn't a reach. I asked you specifically when does the gap become a reach. I dont believe you ever answered me.

Btw, You reference my position. I'm curious, do you know what my position is?

 

[skinsdad62]

if you keep arguing against me one has to believe your corp is you dont believe scherf is the BPA . now its OK SM should know better then both of us

as for belittling anyone i havent belittled anyone anymore then they have belittled me (which i dont think anyone is belittling anyone )

i dont lie on my ass when i am confronted /belittled . it is called standing up for my point of view you run your life the way you want to and i will run mine the way i want too i stand up , i dont play the taking the high road card

i bring it hard i dont lie down like a bitch because someone feels their point of view is the only logical one

i dont buy into all that passive aggressive BS either

if they can fight hard for their point of view then so can i and i will but it seems like that belittling thing only applies to one side

they can cry till the cows come home and i wont change the position i have and that is i believe scherf is the BPA at 5 nor can i change their belief that what ever OLB they prefer isnt the BPA (and all have different ones )

you can cry to me about charts value , pundits , ex gms etc and it wont change my view

now whomever we draft at 5 or trade down for they will get my support and i will spin everything in a positive light for the pick until proven he is garbage 3 years later as i have done with every pick i have witnessed by the same standard i have used and never wavered for anyone fro JC to Rg3

 

[j_y19]

As I have stated numerous times, I have no idea if Schreff is the BPA at 5. I have questions about him based on my research which gives me pause. But I have 2 points. First, if SM views him as the BPA when our pick is there, then Im fine with that. Second, there is a difference between the 5th BPA and the 9, 10, 11, etc BPA. If you reach, you are taking a risk. I don't care who you reach for or what position that they play. The draft is not about filling holes you have today but about acquiring long term strategic talent. So if we stay at 5 and SM's big board has an OLB or a WR (or a RT) as the BPA, you take him, regardless of what hole you may or may not be filling. Oh, BTW, this is exactly what SM has said he will do. This team has so many needs (both this year and new ones next year) that we can't afford to take risks with this pick. Take the BPA, we can always use elite athletic talent on this team for the next 5-10 years.

As I said earlier I don't know enough about any of these players (watching highlight and lowlight films are a just part of player evaluation) so I don't even delude myself into believing I know who is better than whom. I'm all about the process and draft strategy. I only waged into this debate when I saw the argument that there was no difference between 5 and 9. There absolutely is a difference. the 5th pick is valued significantly higher than the 9th pick. That's why teams give up additional draft choices when they only move up a few slots. What is not cast in stone is what that value is in any given trade. there are guides (draft value matrix) which are used as the basis,but every deal varies. We absolutely can trade back. We might only get a swapping of the firsts and a 2nd or 3rd round pick, but someone will want that pick, depending on who is on the board, but we can trade back, we just may not want to. But there is a difference between the 5th pick and any pick after the 5th in terms of value.

 

[skinsdad62]

As I have stated numerous times, I have no idea if Schreff is the BPA at 5. I have questions about him based on my research which gives me pause. But I have 2 points. First, if SM views him as the BPA when our pick is there, then Im fine with that. Second, there is a difference between the 5th BPA and the 9, 10, 11, etc BPA. If you reach, you are taking a risk. I don't care who you reach for or what position that they play. The draft is not about filling holes you have today but about acquiring long term strategic talent. So if we stay at 5 and SM's big board has an OLB or a WR (or a RT) as the BPA, you take him, regardless of what hole you may or may not be filling. Oh, BTW, this is exactly what SM has said he will do. This team has so many needs (both this year and new ones next year) that we can't afford to take risks with this pick. Take the BPA, we can always use elite athletic talent on this team for the next 5-10 years.

As I said earlier I don't know enough about any of these players (watching highlight and lowlight films are a just part of player evaluation) so I don't even delude myself into believing I know who is better than whom. I'm all about the process and draft strategy. I only waged into this debate when I saw the argument that there was no difference between 5 and 9. There absolutely is a difference. the 5th pick is valued significantly higher than the 9th pick. That's why teams give up additional draft choices when they only move up a few slots. What is not cast in stone is what that value is in any given trade. there are guides (draft value matrix) which are used as the basis,but every deal varies. We absolutely can trade back. We might only get a swapping of the firsts and a 2nd or 3rd round pick, but someone will want that pick, depending on who is on the board, but we can trade back, we just may not want to. But there is a difference between the 5th pick and any pick after the 5th in terms of value.

as i have stated numerous times there is no value unless someone offers you something for it . watt was projected to go much later then he was drafted at and we were told he wasnt going to be as good as he turned out to be . is anyone whining about his value now? No his talent on the field is what counted

'saw the argument that there was no difference between 5 and 9. There absolutely is a difference. the 5th pick is valued significantly higher than the 9th pick. " you didnt read all of this or you dont understand what was being said talent wise the 5th and 9th players are about the same you did the same thing redskinsfan dean and DGF did . deon and barry sanders were drafted about the same area in the draft the came out in 2 hof players , what is the downside on talent on the field ? any team would have loved either one of them but someone wants to sqawk to me about trade value ? why bust out draft charts and such ?

 

[j_y19]

See, this is the belittling aspect. I absolutely understand what was being said, I just disagree. You point to one or two examples. That does not make a rule. We are all offering opinions on this site, it doesn't make any of us right or wrong. They are all just opinions, including yours. It is my opinion that history would prove that there is a difference in talent between those picks.

As for the value aspect, you telling me the patriots wouldn't be willing to swap 1sts with us and throw in a lower round pick? Of course they would. There is value, what we don't know is what is that value. That won't be determined until the first 4 picks are gone and we know which prospects are available. But I feel safe in saying that the Patriots (for example only) would give more in trade for the 5th pick than the 9 th pick.

 

[redskinsfan]

this team is a few drafts away from being a year in and year out contender . if a trade is worked out i have no issue with it

my issue is people keep trying to sell me on a 3rd down pass rusher , a drug addict , murphy part 2 , and a man with no position are better then a stud RT or OG at the worst and then want to change the debate to something else like a trade down when they cant make their player work

they sight pundits as draft gods and out of work GMs who failed in their roles as they final say on anything

then when the draft happens most of the time their predictions are garbage and they are back tracking

if i had a dime for every time player X cant play this position in the NFL and then he proves he can i would be rich

how many "experts" told me drew brees was to small and frail to make it ? how many told me Rg3 was the "new breed trendsetter "? how many even heard of AM ? they told me brady was a 6th round afterthought and frederick was a 3rd rounder . welker was too small whitten to slow , taylor mays was a HOF 'r landry a game changer

the list goes on and on

vernon gholston draft grade reads like the next coming and does dion jordan but a redskins fan ecthes it in stone that scherf "cant play RT and no one thinks he can " as gospel because charlie casserly , a failed GM says so

pick a draft guru , kiper mcshay mayock davis miller , etc and their predictions are no better then mine

my last 3 drafts i had us picking 3 guys a year that we actually took . the others got one at best

shoot mcshay was pimping ray to us but "hadnt studied him " really ?

i get talked about value and ferrari's and civics when the comparison is more like a charger and a challenger

my god its a huge grand canyon sized reach to pick the alleged 9th best player overall at 5 because by god we could have had an extra 4th rounder and a 3rd down pass rush specialist

i get told that moses is a 1st round graded steal when we pick him up and he cant get out of his stance to make a block and appears heading to the scrap heap

i can be very wrong on scherf . but dont sell me some crap about how these "experts " are demi gods that need to be taken at their word and followed like we are a bunch of mindless saps

And so where are you getting your opinion on how good Scherff is? Oh yeah, pundits, right? But you're more than happy to cherry pick those pundits over others who tell you that Fowler is the truth. Well, how about nearly all the pundits who believe his real worth is at guard, and the fact that history tell us you never take a guard that high?

 

[redskinsfan]

as i have stated numerous times there is no value unless someone offers you something for it . watt was projected to go much later then he was drafted at and we were told he wasnt going to be as good as he turned out to be . is anyone whining about his value now? No his talent on the field is what counted

'saw the argument that there was no difference between 5 and 9. There absolutely is a difference. the 5th pick is valued significantly higher than the 9th pick. " you didnt read all of this or you dont understand what was being said talent wise the 5th and 9th players are about the same you did the same thing redskinsfan dean and DGF did . deon and barry sanders were drafted about the same area in the draft the came out in 2 hof players , what is the downside on talent on the field ? any team would have loved either one of them but someone wants to sqawk to me about trade value ? why bust out draft charts and such ?

Then you have no idea about value. As I've explained before, you can still lose out on value when there's no trade partner out there. That may explain why you lost value, but you lose value nonetheless. Try running this past a money manager and ask him or her about value and lack of trade partners.

 

[redskinsfan]

See, this is the belittling aspect. I absolutely understand what was being said, I just disagree. You point to one or two examples. That does not make a rule. We are all offering opinions on this site, it doesn't make any of us right or wrong. They are all just opinions, including yours. It is my opinion that history would prove that there is a difference in talent between those picks.

As for the value aspect, you telling me the patriots wouldn't be willing to swap 1sts with us and throw in a lower round pick? Of course they would. There is value, what we don't know is what is that value. That won't be determined until the first 4 picks are gone and we know which prospects are available. But I feel safe in saying that the Patriots (for example only) would give more in trade for the 5th pick than the 9 th pick.

But we do know that the general value between the fifth and ninth pick based on the Bills-Browns trade last year which involved a swap of the fourth and ninth picks. That value was a first and fourth rounder this year. That's the value you give up when taking Scherff. The only reason why you'd take Scherff then is out of desperation.

 

[Sharkinva]

But we do know that the general value between the fifth and ninth pick based on the Bills-Browns trade last year which involved a swap of the fourth and ninth picks. That value was a first and fourth rounder this year. That's the value you give up when taking Scherff. The only reason why you'd take Scherff then is out of desperation.

The only reason that swap happened last year was out of desperation. As in one team desperate to pick a player ahead of another team. But as most of you have come to a consensus that there is no player worthy of the pick, and Surely not Scherff... Why would any one be so desperate as to trade up. Surely you dont think the Giants would be desperate enough to trade up for an O-lineman who would be lucky to make roster according to the way some of you talk.

 

[redskinsfan]

The only reason that swap happened last year was out of desperation. As in one team desperate to pick a player ahead of another team. But as most of you have come to a consensus that there is no player worthy of the pick, and Surely not Scherff... Why would any one be so desperate as to trade up. Surely you dont think the Giants would be desperate enough to trade up for an O-lineman who would be lucky to make roster according to the way some of you talk.

B and S. The draft value chart pegs that trade as a current year second rounder. A next year first rounder plus a later-round pick is equivalent of that value.

 

[Sharkinva]

B and S. The draft value chart pegs that trade as a current year second rounder. A next year first rounder plus a later-round pick is equivalent of that value.

And if Oakland had not been desperate to ensure they got Mack, the trade never would have happened. You cant trade with out a partner. But as I said, its pointless to debate what to do with the 5th pick with you because the only value you see in the Skins having the pick is if they trade it away.

 

[redskinsfan]

And if Oakland had not been desperate to ensure they got Mack, the trade never would have happened. You cant trade with out a partner. But as I said, its pointless to debate what to do with the 5th pick with you because the only value you see in the Skins having the pick is if they trade it away.

Wrong and wrong. You again missed the point about Gallery. That's a shining example of how a team, who had no trade partner for their second overall pick, screwing up value.

 

[Sharkinva]

Wrong and wrong. You again missed the point about Gallery. That's a shining example of how a team, who had no trade partner for their second overall pick, screwing up value.

Again dude, you are trying to use the "logic" (and I use that term loosely at this point) that because a player MIGHT need to be moved to a different position but still be a very good player as justification for why trading down should be our FIRST and apparently only desired outcome for the fifth pick.

Im over it dude, because apparently in your eyes anything other than trading the pick would be a mistake. And possibly taking Scherff no matter how good he turns out, would be in your eyes a total and completely valueless pick.

 

[redskinsfan]

Again dude, you are trying to use the "logic" (and I use that term loosely at this point) that because a player MIGHT need to be moved to a different position but still be a very good player as justification for why trading down should be our FIRST and apparently only desired outcome for the fifth pick.

Im over it dude, because apparently in your eyes anything other than trading the pick would be a mistake. And possibly taking Scherff no matter how good he turns out, would be in your eyes a total and completely valueless pick.

You might want to comprehend (and I use that term loosely) what I've said. And what I've NOT said is that we should trade down, Scherff is valueless, or we shouldn't take him. I've never seen so much fanboy-dom for a player. I am NOT against taking Scherff, but generally don't want to take him at #5 unless Scot thinks it's worth it. How you've missed this and the vast swath of other points I and others have been making is mind-boggling.

 

[redskinsfan]

I might also add that if you can't understand the "logic" of value and worth in drafts picks, I'm not sure what to tell you. In reality, this is basic common sense. Any Raider fan will you that the team blew in on Gallery because they could've taken Rivers, Big Ben, or Wilfork. That sentence embodies what I've been talking about but somehow seems to have eluded you and some others here.

 

[skinsdad62]

See, this is the belittling aspect. I absolutely understand what was being said, I just disagree. You point to one or two examples. That does not make a rule. We are all offering opinions on this site, it doesn't make any of us right or wrong. They are all just opinions, including yours. It is my opinion that history would prove that there is a difference in talent between those picks.

As for the value aspect, you telling me the patriots wouldn't be willing to swap 1sts with us and throw in a lower round pick? Of course they would. There is value, what we don't know is what is that value. That won't be determined until the first 4 picks are gone and we know which prospects are available. But I feel safe in saying that the Patriots (for example only) would give more in trade for the 5th pick than the 9 th pick.

until the patriots have offered for real something it means nothing

it isnt belittling to tell you i disagree with you

it is what it is

but dont expect me to lie down on my ass and say gee j-y you have your opinion and i must meekly acknowledge it and be forced to accept it . i can present my case

go back and read every response here and tell me how many times i have gotten "i dont understand value , opportunity cost blah blah blah yet you are silent when its done to me but if i say you dont understand well i'm belittling

you want to play fair arbitrator then call it both ways