Redskins' Kirk Cousins: Still far apart on extension terms

[Sleepy T]

VT, why are you so hung up on the money? We have plenty of cap space. And if he does become one of the highest paid players, it will be for a nano second until the next ones sign. Whatever he signs for has as much to do with timing as it does play level.

I don't guess its so much the money .. more just the principal of it. I get it, the market for good QBs is huge wrt $$$, but no QB = no chance for success. He (and his agent) are using this situation as leverage to possibly scoop up the biggest payday in NFL history. I've said it before... short of a land breaking contract, I don't see him signing before 7/15. I honestly don't think he wants to sign. I think he wants to play another year on the tag, hedge his bets, and stand in line for a RIDICULOUS payday next year with the team of his choice. There is some ego involved here on BOTH sides.

Has his camp counter offered?? Has there been anything reported. What he is looking for...THAT is what inquiring minds want to know..

 

[gkekoa]

NE is New England because of Brady. I'm aware that good teams have good players, but let's not act like the Patriots would have won all of these SBs with Alex Smith or Jay Cutker as their QB.

2001- NE defense was the number one scoring defense in the NFL. Greatest show on turf, 17 points. SPYGATE.

2003- NE defense was the number 1 scoring defense in the NFL.

2004- NE defense was #2 scoring defense. SB the defense forced 4 turnovers.

2014- NE was all the way down to 8 in scoring D. Gifted the game on the one yard line.

2016- NE was number 1 scoring defense in the NFL. Basically shut down the best offense in the NFL.

SPYGATE, deflategate, tuck rule, one yard line interception, blowing an huge lead with poor play-calling...the list goes on and on.


2008 they go 11-5 with Matt Cassell.

2016 they 3-1 with Garoppolo and Brisset at QB, both first time starters.


They win because of Bellicheck.

 

[Sharkinva]

I don't guess its so much the money .. more just the principal of it. I get it, the market for good QBs is huge wrt $$$, but no QB = no chance for success. He (and his agent) are using this situation as leverage to possibly scoop up the biggest payday in NFL history. I've said it before... short of a land breaking contract, I don't see him signing before 7/15. I honestly don't think he wants to sign. I think he wants to play another year on the tag, hedge his bets, and stand in line for a RIDICULOUS payday next year with the team of his choice. There is some ego involved here on BOTH sides.

Has his camp counter offered?? Has there been anything reported. What he is looking for...THAT is what inquiring minds want to know..

Actually we already know what he is looking for. The guaranteed money needs to be north of $58M, because right now if he plays on the tag this year, and they tag him again next year, that is the amount of guaranteed money he will get no questions asked.

Again why should he even bother to counter offer when the Skins threw out $25M guaranteed?

Also as has been stated, its not just that you have no chance of success if you dont have a QB. Look at the history of

Redskins
Browns
The Jags
The Bucs since their last Super Bowl
The Bills

What do all these teams have in common?? The quest for the elite QB. And while they chased elite, and threw massive resources and multiple HIGH first round picks at the position, the rest of the roster wallowed in a state of constant decay. How many good players careers were wasted in DC while we threw shit tons of draft capital at the QB position trying to hit on the elite guy??

So chasing elite actually has a negative effect in most cases. I get it people say Kirk hasnt EARNED that kind of payday, but I also know that even if they gave him a $180M contract with $100M Guaranteed, in a year or less, his deal will not be considered all that out of the ordinary, and it only kills us if he totally tanks, which none of us expects. But yes, signing him long term will likely mean that even if we are sitting there at $17 again, and some one like Darnold some how slides, we likely will try and trade out of the spot......

And that I think is in the back of some peoples minds. That signing Kirk means we wont take one of these rookies next year.

 

[gkekoa]

That is what I don't get Shark. People think if we sign KC and he is simply mediocre this season, we won't take a QB or we can't. If we sign him to 60 million guaranteed, that is simply two years of salary and a ten mil signing bonus. If he is mediocre, and we draft one of those QBs, they can learn from KC for a season. Maybe that season KC will look extremely good and we can trade him then. There are no negatives to signing KC long term.

 

[Sharkinva]

That is what I don't get Shark. People think if we sign KC and he is simply mediocre this season, we won't take a QB or we can't. If we sign him to 60 million guaranteed, that is simply two years of salary and a ten mil signing bonus. If he is mediocre, and we draft one of those QBs, they can learn from KC for a season. Maybe that season KC will look extremely good and we can trade him then. There are no negatives to signing KC long term.

GK... the one negative is this. Suppose Kirk stays about where he has been the past two years?? Now many have made it clear they dont think thats good enough. But if you have a QB who again passes for 4500 yards, and 25 or more TDs, but the team finishes 8-8...

It does take you out of the market to say, try and trade up for one of these ubber stud rookie QBs. So if we sign Kirk long term, the only way we make the move for one of these top rookie QBs is

1. The team sucked AND Kirk sucked
2. One of these Ubber Studs has warts and slides to 17-25 which is where I expect us to be picking in the 2018 draft.

 

[ehb5]

That is what I don't get Shark. People think if we sign KC and he is simply mediocre this season, we won't take a QB or we can't. If we sign him to 60 million guaranteed, that is simply two years of salary and a ten mil signing bonus. If he is mediocre, and we draft one of those QBs, they can learn from KC for a season. Maybe that season KC will look extremely good and we can trade him then. There are no negatives to signing KC long term.

What if he ends up overpaid, underperforming, and handicapping other moves we'd like to make. I'd gladly like to resign him but saying there can't be negatives is just optimism for the sake of optimism.

 

[Sharkinva]

What if he ends up overpaid, underperforming, and handicapping other moves we'd like to make. I'd gladly like to resign him but saying there can't be negatives is just optimism for the sake of optimism.

Ten years ago, hell five years ago this might have held water. But lets play a game

Andrew Luck was just found out to be a mass fucktard and deported to wesuckistan. The Colts now have to eat his remaining signing bonus....

They make him a June 1st cut, and that changes their cap space for 2018 from $61M to $66M


Again I just pointed out the real negative to resigning him, and that is it would all but guarantee we wont make another RG3 type trade.

Im totally ok with that by the way. Because I dont think even his biggest haters expect him to some how totally fail this year barring injury.

 

[gkekoa]

What if he ends up overpaid, underperforming, and handicapping other moves we'd like to make. I'd gladly like to resign him but saying there can't be negatives is just optimism for the sake of optimism.

If he is overpaid and under performs this season on a long term contract with 60 million guaranteed on a five year deal, that is two years of guaranteed salary and a twenty million signing bonus which is spread through the contract even if we cut him. Like I said, if he underperforms this season, we can draft a QB next season and he can sit for a year. During that year, maybe KC even bounces back and we can trade KC...similar to Brees and Rivers.

You mean sign guys to huge contracts their old teams didn't think they were worth. Gotcha.

 

[ehb5]

Ten years ago, hell five years ago this might have held water. But lets play a game

Andrew Luck was just found out to be a mass fucktard and deported to wesuckistan. The Colts now have to eat his remaining signing bonus....

They make him a June 1st cut, and that changes their cap space for 2018 from $61M to $66M


Again I just pointed out the real negative to resigning him, and that is it would all but guarantee we wont make another RG3 type trade.

Im totally ok with that by the way. Because I dont think even his biggest haters expect him to some how totally fail this year barring injury.

...and they lost their starting QB...so thats not good...

There are plenty of potential negatives to resigning him. That shouldnt even be debatable. BUT...theres also plenty of negatives the other way.

 

[ehb5]

If he is overpaid and under performs this season on a long term contract with 60 million guaranteed on a five year deal, that is two years of guaranteed salary and a twenty million signing bonus which is spread through the contract even if we cut him. Like I said, if he underperforms this season, we can draft a QB next season and he can sit for a year. During that year, maybe KC even bounces back and we can trade KC...similar to Brees and Rivers.

You mean sign guys to huge contracts their old teams didn't think they were worth. Gotcha.

Im not sure I follow what youre saying here.

Sure he wont likely lose all value in a flash. But he could end up making more than he's worth, he could regress or not be a top 10 QB like some think. Theres lots of things that could happen. Most likely things would be fine. But there are plenty of ways for this to go south.

Also on a semi related note (and Ive brought this up before) but I think part of the problem is in the way we view QBs. Alex Smith is my go to example. There are plenty of people on here who think hes a good QB and even underpaid. I would go so far as to say hes overpaid and actively holding the 49ers back. Flacco is similar. Hes overpaid too and I bet Baltimore wishes they could get out of that contract. We could end up resigning Kirk to an extension and end up in a similar spot where we have this wishy washy situation of a QB good enough to keep but not good enough to help us win it all. Not saying thats whats gonna happen but I think some of the contracts around the league are viewed too positively.

 

[Sharkinva]

...and they lost their starting QB...so thats not good...

There are plenty of potential negatives to resigning him. That shouldnt even be debatable. BUT...theres also plenty of negatives the other way.

True, but lets be real here... the main negative people have been throwing up is... Kirk doesnt DESERVE to be paid like one of the Elites. I happen to think thats just an excuse for, if we resign Kirk, we likely wont make a move for one of the preordained uberstuds in next years draft.

 

[Sharkinva]

Im not sure I follow what youre saying here.

Sure he wont likely lose all value in a flash. But he could end up making more than he's worth, he could regress or not be a top 10 QB like some think. Theres lots of things that could happen. Most likely things would be fine. But there are plenty of ways for this to go south.

Also on a semi related note (and Ive brought this up before) but I think part of the problem is in the way we view QBs. Alex Smith is my go to example. There are plenty of people on here who think hes a good QB and even underpaid. I would go so far as to say hes overpaid and actively holding the 49ers back. Flacco is similar. Hes overpaid too and I bet Baltimore wishes they could get out of that contract. We could end up resigning Kirk to an extension and end up in a similar spot where we have this wishy washy situation of a QB good enough to keep but not good enough to help us win it all. Not saying thats whats gonna happen but I think some of the contracts around the league are viewed too positively.

The Ravens just resigned Flacco last year. SO they had every opportunity to get out from under him, and choose to keep him.

Cutting Smith would not only save the Chiefs $9.7M this year, but would also mean no cap gymnastics next year.

 

[ehb5]

True, but lets be real here... the main negative people have been throwing up is... Kirk doesnt DESERVE to be paid like one of the Elites. I happen to think thats just an excuse for, if we resign Kirk, we likely wont make a move for one of the preordained uberstuds in next years draft.

Depends what they mean by deserve. If its he doesnt deserve it because I dont like him and I dont wanna see him make a lot of money then yea thats dumb. Who tf cares how Kirk Cousins is doing financially - something tells me no matter what he'll be pretty rich.

If its a he doesnt deserve it because he'll be overpaid thats another story. Fact is we know resigning him will cost a lot. The market for a starting QB is ridiculous. But no matter what the market says, he could still be overpaid. If the value of Kirk to this team is say 15 mil a year and we pay him 25 mil a year - thats an overpay. Then you'd have to argue whether that overpay is still preferable to the alternative (basically letting him walk for a compensation pick and then starting the QB search over again).

 

[gkekoa]

Are we better off with him at 25 mil a season over the next five years or better off drafting a rookie and hoping. It is that simple...those are the options.

 

[ehb5]

The Ravens just resigned Flacco last year. SO they had every opportunity to get out from under him, and choose to keep him.

Cutting Smith would not only save the Chiefs $9.7M this year, but would also mean no cap gymnastics next year.

Eh yes and no. They extended him but in large part because they needed to clear cap space due to the offensive deal they gave him a couple years earlier. And I will also add that his current deal is still not so hot. Maybe Baltimore wants him at that price, maybe they had no choice - but I wouldnt want any part of it.

As for Smith the problem is they keep him around. They have finally looked elsewhere but having a QB on a contract like that generally leads teams to thinking they have the QB position locked up when in reality - its the weak spot on the team.

This has always been my biggest problem with these contracts. I know you can write them up so you can get out of them and the damage usually wont be catastrophic. But teams usually just stick with those guys then and sometimes they really shouldnt be.

 

[ehb5]

Are we better off with him at 25 mil a season over the next five years or better off drafting a rookie and hoping. It is that simple...those are the options.

100% accurate.

 

[Sharkinva]

Eh yes and no. They extended him but in large part because they needed to clear cap space due to the offensive deal they gave him a couple years earlier. And I will also add that his current deal is still not so hot. Maybe Baltimore wants him at that price, maybe they had no choice - but I wouldnt want any part of it.

As for Smith the problem is they keep him around. They have finally looked elsewhere but having a QB on a contract like that generally leads teams to thinking they have the QB position locked up when in reality - its the weak spot on the team.

This has always been my biggest problem with these contracts. I know you can write them up so you can get out of them and the damage usually wont be catastrophic. But teams usually just stick with those guys then and sometimes they really shouldnt be.

Again.. BAltimore could have done what many are suggesting we do, let Flacco go and draft a rookie since Flacco is not a franchise QB according to most around here.

The Chiefs could have ditched Smith a while back, same deal.

What these guys get paid, and their impact on the cap are two different things. And with the new CBA, as has been shown many times... CAP impact can and usually is easier to deal with. So really the only real sticking point you have is, teams might hold onto a guy because they think he can get it done and pass up on the next Cam Newton.


Remind me how Captain Underpants and his team finished this year??

 

[ehb5]

Again.. BAltimore could have done what many are suggesting we do, let Flacco go and draft a rookie since Flacco is not a franchise QB according to most around here.

The Chiefs could have ditched Smith a while back, same deal.

What these guys get paid, and their impact on the cap are two different things. And with the new CBA, as has been shown many times... CAP impact can and usually is easier to deal with. So really the only real sticking point you have is, teams might hold onto a guy because they think he can get it done and pass up on the next Cam Newton.


Remind me how Captain Underpants and his team finished this year??

Yet they didnt. That is the problem.

Instead they paid mediocre at best QBs a lot of money instead of using that money elsewhere.

 

[Sharkinva]

Yet they didnt. That is the problem.

Instead they paid mediocre at best QBs a lot of money instead of using that money elsewhere.

Where else would they have used it though?? Are you suggesting we need to go back into the big money for big name free agents bonanza?? Because we also have seen how that doesnt work. So the fact that some of the best coaches and talent men in the league, decided they would rather stick with above average QBs at a higher price, than go into the rookie pool and chase elite is some how a bad idea?? Considering how bad this team has done over the past 20 years for the most part, I would think most Skins fans would be jumping at the chance to have a QB that at least gives us a realistic chance of being in the playoffs hunt every year.

And are you implying that Kirk is Mediocre at best?? Just curious.

 

[ehb5]

Where else would they have used it though?? Are you suggesting we need to go back into the big money for big name free agents bonanza?? Because we also have seen how that doesnt work. So the fact that some of the best coaches and talent men in the league, decided they would rather stick with above average QBs at a higher price, than go into the rookie pool and chase elite is some how a bad idea?? Considering how bad this team has done over the past 20 years for the most part, I would think most Skins fans would be jumping at the chance to have a QB that at least gives us a realistic chance of being in the playoffs hunt every year.

And are you implying that Kirk is Mediocre at best?? Just curious.

In FA presumably. Which I might add has been very successful for many teams. Should you blindly throw money around? No. But teams that are afraid of FA are missing out.

I guess Ill just ask this. If we had Joe Flacco or Alex Smith right now on the tag (exact same situation as Cousins lets say). What would you want us to do?

Im not implying anything.