How Pleased Are You That the Pats Are Out of the Big Game?

[cdumler7]

CJ and Hillman complemented each other. By not having to carry a full load of snaps they both became more effective.Both are two of the youngest RBs available this year. Both have less wear and tear then many of the FAs available. Both will have plenty of suitors. Both are making less than 1M. I know evrything in Denver is rosey. But, can you at least agree both will get more than they made this year? Let's just start there shall we?

Do you know what a RFA is? How about we start there.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

Do you know what a RFA is? How about we start there.

Yes. Your point? If Denver doesn`t match an offer they get a comp pick the following year. How does this change how much he could cost Denver or where else they'll find possibly two RBs with that much production for under 1M? The tender is a starting point established by the CBA. I haven't looked it up but I'm just guessing it's over 1M. My point still stands. Denver has 25 FAs restricted or unrestricted. To keep them or replace them with the same production is going to cost Denver. Let's stop with the what if game. What if we hit every drsft pick, what if the 2nd year rookies step up...This is about current players and thier value vs. what Denvers CAP limitations may look like going into next season. Taking into account what players stay, what players.

 

[gohusk]

Meh, couldn't care less. I'm only rooting for Denver because my 7 year old is a "huge fan" (after school lady that he loves is a denver fan so he picked them up) but I really don't care who wins if it isn't my team. Good thing is because it's denver he won't be bitching at me to change the channel the entire game.

 

[LambeauLegs]

Gronk is surely pleased he is not in the big game as he is in mid off season form giving a lap dance to a fox sports reporter



Rob Gronkowski‘s Patriots were eliminated from the playoffs one game short of Super Bowl 50, which means that Gronk’s offseason has begun. If you remember anything about Gronk, it’s that his offseasons tend to be giant, party-filled affairs. And though the Super Bowl hasn’t even happened yet, Gronk’s clearly in mid-offseason form already.

Appearing as a guest on Jason Whitlock’s House Party By the Bay, which is a special show that Fox Sports One is putting on ahead of the big game, Gronk talked about his history as an accidental male stripper and demonstrated his lap dance skills on Fox reporter Julie Stewart-Binks.

 

[Mondo Jay]

CJ and Hillman complemented each other. By not having to carry a full load of snaps they both became more effective.Both are two of the youngest RBs available this year. Both have less wear and tear then many of the FAs available. Both will have plenty of suitors. Both are making less than 1M. I know evrything in Denver is rosey. But, can you at least agree both will get more than they made this year? Let's just start there shall we?

Personally, I would much rather keep Anderson.

 

[Broncos6482]

CJ and Hillman complemented each other. By not having to carry a full load of snaps they both became more effective.Both are two of the youngest RBs available this year. Both have less wear and tear then many of the FAs available. Both will have plenty of suitors. Both are making less than 1M. I know evrything in Denver is rosey. But, can you at least agree both will get more than they made this year? Let's just start there shall we?

Sure, both will get more, but that doesn't mean that Denver has to pay it. Like I said, Hillman is just a guy. There are dozens of others like him in the NFL. The Broncos can bring in someone else to split carries with Anderson.

As for Anderson, he's a restricted free agent, which means he's incredibly unlikely to be signed by anyone else, and Denver can keep him for much cheaper than it would cost if he were unrestricted.

You keep bringing up the number of free agents that Denver has, but the guys you should be focusing on are the unrestricted free agents. Here are the unrestricted guys that Denver has to worry about.

Von Miller - will most likely get the franchise tag while Denver works out a long term deal. He's not going anywhere.

Evan Mathis - had an injury plagued year but was very good when healthy. Denver won't break the bank for him, so he's gone if he wants a big payday.

Vernon Davis - getting old and ineffective. I wouldn't be surprised if he retires. He's not coming back and Denver won't miss him.

Antonio Smith - Rotational d lineman in his mid 30s. Denver might bring him back on a one year deal.

David Bruton - Ace special teamer and above average cover safety. He had his best season but got injured late. He's big in the community and was Denver's Walter Payton Man of the Year nominee. I think both he and the team want him back, so unless someone just throws ungodly amounts of money at him, I think he'll re-sign for about what he's making now ($1.5 million per year).

Malik Jackson and Danny Trevathan - I lumped them together because they are both important to the defense, and I don't think Denver can afford both. Trevathan has already talked about how he expects the Bears to go after him. I wouldn't be surprised if the Raiders look at both, too. Of the two, I think Jackson is harder to replace, but I also think at this point he's most interested in the big payday. My gut tells me both guys sign elsewhere.

Andre Caldwell, Ronnie Hillman, Jordan Norwood, and Omar Bolden - good depth guys, but pretty easily replaceable.

Brock Osweiler - he's the big mystery. How much can he command in free agency? Most articles I've read speculate in the $10-12 million per year range, but if he really wants to test the market, I wouldn't be shocked if a qb needy team with a ton of cap space throws more at him. However, I think Denver wants him back, and I think he knows his best shot is with the team that has spent the last 4 years grooming him, so I think they work out a deal before free agency hits.

 

[cdumler7]

Yes. Your point? If Denver doesn`t match an offer they get a comp pick the following year. How does this change how much he could cost Denver or where else they'll find possibly two RBs with that much production for under 1M? The tender is a starting point established by the CBA. I haven't looked it up but I'm just guessing it's over 1M. My point still stands. Denver has 25 FAs restricted or unrestricted. To keep them or replace them with the same production is going to cost Denver. Let's stop with the what if game. What if we hit every drsft pick, what if the 2nd year rookies step up...This is about current players and thier value vs. what Denvers CAP limitations may look like going into next season. Taking into account what players stay, what players.

See by what you have just said you don't understand what RFA actually means. What actually happens is a team starts off by deciding which level of tender they want to put on a player. There are 3 options of either a 1st round tender which will cost a team about $3.3 million, 2nd round tender which will cost a team about 2.2 million and an original pick at $1.5 million. A team will designate which level they want to put them at. Then a team can make an offer to that team and if the original team does not choose to match the offer then the team that is signing the player must give up their 1st, 2nd, or original round of the player.

ERFA's cannot negotiate with other teams and have an even lower salary cap hit. Now because teams want to hold onto their draft picks so tightly very rarely in this league will teams work out a trade. Also once a certain period of time has gone by many times the teams will negotiate with the RFA's to try and sign a lower cap hit but give them more guaranteed money if say they were cut.

So for Denver they have

ERFA as
Todd Davis, Brandon McManus, Bennie Fowler, Matt Paradis, and Sam Brenner

RFA as
Brandon Marshall, Lerentee McCray, CJ Anderson

My guess for the RFA's
Brandon Marshall--2nd round tender
CJ Anderson--Original round tender
Lerentee McCray--Original round tender

So our ERFA's and RFA's will cost us approximately $7.7 million. That makes it where 8 of our FA's that you mentioned are signed.

Then you add the expected 9 draft picks we are supposed to have and all of a sudden 17 of those 25 FA spots you mentioned are now filled.

Good chance the Broncos bring back Von Miller, Brock Osweiler, and one of either Trevathan or Jackson. So then that takes us up to 20 of the 25 spots needed filled and still being under the cap.

Also we are not going to need that many anyway. We actually do have 42 players under contract for this next year. Those FA's include a very long list of players the Broncos have no plan of trying to keep.

Also let's talk value. Ronnie Hillman seems to be the guy you are obsessed with. Makes me really question how much you have actually watched him this year. He is a part time player that has some major limitations. He has an incredible strength with his speed but beyond that he doesn't have great vision, is not a break tackle kind of guy and graded out as one of the worst pass blocking RB's in the NFL this season. He is what I would consider a guy you like to have as a back up but if he is your starter then you are definitely looking to upgrade the position. He was brought in under Fox's regime and just doesn't fit the Broncos new ZBS that they want to run. I highly doubt he is a top priority to resign. Like I said for Kubiak it is more about getting the OL right. Then when it comes to RB's it is more about vision than it is about having great speed or power. Terrell Davis is the perfect example in he wasn't the fastest or strongest guy in the league but he had great vision. The Broncos look for different things when drafting a RB than other teams. A guy I could see them looking at beyond just the draft is Alfred Morris. He thrived in the ZBS under Shanahan in Washington but when Shanahan was fired Morris kind of took a back seat. He doesn't have a ton of wear and tear and to me would be a huge upgrade over either Hillman or Anderson and could be really cheap with the RB position being so downgraded.

As for finding replacements. Yeah none of us know if we will find an upgrade. At the same time you have no clue what players who didn't play much this year will step up. For the Broncos this season they had plenty of guys play above expectations. They had some draft picks that finally panned out that they had shown patience with. My expectation is the Broncos OL looks much better next season. They will get back Clady (at a reduced price as he has already said he is willing to take a pay cut) and Sambrailo and instead of having 3 starters that had never played a snap in the NFL they now have 16 games experience. It isn't ridiculous for me to expect that in year 2 for those guys that they will be better as that is the usual case in the NFL. So let's say the RB's are not as good but the OL is much better. I would take that in a heart beat. Osweiler this next year if he is our starter will have a full off season of actually being the starter of the team...Seems reasonable that the more he works in this offense and with the starters the more likely he is to be better than he was this past year.

On the defensive side of the ball not sure who we will lose. I think it is safe to say though that players the 2nd year in a new system usually feel much more comfortable. This is proven and plenty of players and coaches say it takes at least one full season before you fully understand all parts of a new system. So while we could be losing Danny Trevathan isn't it reasonable to say that with those other players being more comfortable with what they are doing that the defense could counter that loss? Also reasonable to think guys like Shane Ray with a full off season training with Von Miller will come back a better player?

Now while I understand not everything is going to be perfect for the Broncos moving forward as it is hard to stay at that championship level to me you are blowing this whole thing out of proportion with things you have already said you don't quite understand how they work.

 

[Jakology]

Holy shit @Broncos6482 and @cdumler7 That's a lot to read.

 

[Jakology]

14 pages? Congrats on keeping the Pats relevant on the board. Can't believe people feed this stuff. Bye.

 

[cdumler7]

Holy shit @Broncos6482 and @cdumler7 That's a lot to read.

Sorry hard to explain the actual cap in few words. It is a complicated system compared to any other league. When NWPatsfan seems to think he understands our cap situation when he clearly doesn't I guess just hard not to respond. Us Bronco fans have been talking about this upcoming off season for the past 2 years. There are so many things the Broncos could do this off season.

 

[Jakology]

When NWPatsfan seems to think he understands our cap situation when he clearly doesn't

I wouldn't take him too seriously.

 

[cdumler7]

I wouldn't take him too seriously.

From his posting it just seems more like a "I hope the Broncos fall out because I am tired of them keeping my team out of the Super Bowl 2 of the past 3 years." With the NFL we just have no clue what is going to happen for any of our teams. Injuries, bad bounces, and so much more can quickly derail even the best of teams in the league. Right now it is hard to tell what all the Broncos will do because no idea who is retiring, what contracts they will redo as some players with high salary hits have said they will redo their contracts to stay with the team, and who might get cut. Elway has shown he is unwilling to overpay for a player so maybe there is a surprise player that leaves because they want ridiculous money. I just know every year people have been saying this of "losing this player will derail your entire team." Well so far 5 straight divisional titles would say otherwise. I mean last year we lost Orlando Franklin, Rahim Moore, Terrance Knighton, and Julius Thomas. They all went and signed huge deals. I don't know how many people wrote about how the Broncos were doomed without those guys. Then those players went to other teams and all but Knighton who got the least of all these guys went out and busted this year. Moore got benched. Thomas spent most of the year injured just like Broncos fans said he would be after getting paid. Franklin had his worst year as a pro. Knighton like I said actually did pretty decent with Washington but there was a reason that teams stayed away from him. He doesn't stay in shape and is a part time player because of his lack of conditioning.

 

[Broncos6482]

Sorry hard to explain the actual cap in few words. It is a complicated system compared to any other league. When NWPatsfan seems to think he understands our cap situation when he clearly doesn't I guess just hard not to respond. Us Bronco fans have been talking about this upcoming off season for the past 2 years. There are so many things the Broncos could do this off season.

Yep. Broncos fans have been hearing for years now how all of our spending in free agency, and win now mentality, was going to leave us in salary cap hell in a few years. What casual fans don't realize is that Elway and the Broncos have been very smart about how they structure contracts so they aren't stuck with a bunch of dead money, a la the Saints.

Also key is that the team has drafted very well since Elway took over. That allows them to let guys take big free agent deals elsewhere, because they've got a younger, cheaper guy waiting in the wings. Perfect example of that is Wesley Woodyard. A lot of people said Denver's defense would suffer when he was allowed to leave, and yet Travathan and Marshall came in and really performed even better.

 

[TDs3nOut]

14 pages? Congrats on keeping the Pats relevant on the board. Can't believe people feed this stuff. Bye.

I think that most of it is one person arguing that the Butler INT was PI in last year's SB.

 

[cdumler7]

Yep. Broncos fans have been hearing for years now how all of our spending in free agency, and win now mentality, was going to leave us in salary cap hell in a few years. What casual fans don't realize is that Elway and the Broncos have been very smart about how they structure contracts so they aren't stuck with a bunch of dead money, a la the Saints.

Also key is that the team has drafted very well since Elway took over. That allows them to let guys take big free agent deals elsewhere, because they've got a younger, cheaper guy waiting in the wings. Perfect example of that is Wesley Woodyard. A lot of people said Denver's defense would suffer when he was allowed to leave, and yet Travathan and Marshall came in and really performed even better.

Exactly...He keeps focusing on the players we are losing forgetting that plenty of other players come in. Look at our Super Bowl squad this year. Only 21 players I think of the 53 were actually on the team that went to the Super Bowl just 2 years ago. That is huge turnover. Throw in we went from historical offense to incredible defense being what got us there.

To me I look at while yes the defense maybe takes a hit with losing somebody the offense should get a huge boost because of the improvement on the OL. I've been listening to Mark Schlereth talk about the ZBS under Kubiak and he said it is a complicated system that can't be learned and perfected in a year. He said that 2nd and 3rd year in the system is when you see the fruits of what they are doing. So we have 3 guys on our OL starting that hadn't played a down in the NFL before this year who now have around 16 games experience plus Clady and Sambrailo returning. So let's say the RB's are not as good wouldn't that be countered by having a better OL? Shouldn't that help the QB when he has more time to throw to look better? So in turn that should make our entire offense look better just by the OL having learned the system and no longer being the least experienced OL of the last 10 years in the league.

 

[PatsFan2003]

Gronk is surely pleased he is not in the big game as he is in mid off season form giving a lap dance to a fox sports reporter

View attachment 85851

Rob Gronkowski‘s Patriots were eliminated from the playoffs one game short of Super Bowl 50, which means that Gronk’s offseason has begun. If you remember anything about Gronk, it’s that his offseasons tend to be giant, party-filled affairs. And though the Super Bowl hasn’t even happened yet, Gronk’s clearly in mid-offseason form already.

Appearing as a guest on Jason Whitlock’s House Party By the Bay, which is a special show that Fox Sports One is putting on ahead of the big game, Gronk talked about his history as an accidental male stripper and demonstrated his lap dance skills on Fox reporter Julie Stewart-Binks.

It's good to be the Gronk. She seems to be enjoying herself as well.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

Sure, both will get more, but that doesn't mean that Denver has to pay it. Like I said, Hillman is just a guy. There are dozens of others like him in the NFL. The Broncos can bring in someone else to split carries with Anderson.

As for Anderson, he's a restricted free agent, which means he's incredibly unlikely to be signed by anyone else, and Denver can keep him for much cheaper than it would cost if he were unrestricted.

You keep bringing up the number of free agents that Denver has, but the guys you should be focusing on are the unrestricted free agents. Here are the unrestricted guys that Denver has to worry about.

Von Miller - will most likely get the franchise tag while Denver works out a long term deal. He's not going anywhere.

Evan Mathis - had an injury plagued year but was very good when healthy. Denver won't break the bank for him, so he's gone if he wants a big payday.

Vernon Davis - getting old and ineffective. I wouldn't be surprised if he retires. He's not coming back and Denver won't miss him.

Antonio Smith - Rotational d lineman in his mid 30s. Denver might bring him back on a one year deal.

David Bruton - Ace special teamer and above average cover safety. He had his best season but got injured late. He's big in the community and was Denver's Walter Payton Man of the Year nominee. I think both he and the team want him back, so unless someone just throws ungodly amounts of money at him, I think he'll re-sign for about what he's making now ($1.5 million per year).

Malik Jackson and Danny Trevathan - I lumped them together because they are both important to the defense, and I don't think Denver can afford both. Trevathan has already talked about how he expects the Bears to go after him. I wouldn't be surprised if the Raiders look at both, too. Of the two, I think Jackson is harder to replace, but I also think at this point he's most interested in the big payday. My gut tells me both guys sign elsewhere.

Andre Caldwell, Ronnie Hillman, Jordan Norwood, and Omar Bolden - good depth guys, but pretty easily replaceable.

Brock Osweiler - he's the big mystery. How much can he command in free agency? Most articles I've read speculate in the $10-12 million per year range, but if he really wants to test the market, I wouldn't be shocked if a qb needy team with a ton of cap space throws more at him. However, I think Denver wants him back, and I think he knows his best shot is with the team that has spent the last 4 years grooming him, so I think they work out a deal before free agency hits.

All good points, I just put more value on rotational players than you I think. Again it's not if you can bring someone in of equal talent around the same cost. It's how will he adjust to that team and his role. How does he fit in with the team? All are intangabiles that can't be over looked. Seattle is a good example. They lost some rotational DL and it shown. That along with losing a couple DBs had tgem go from 28 INTs three years ago to 27 combined over the last two. Still a very goid D but not feared like 3 years ago.
As for Von Miller, how happy do you think he'll be if gets the tag? All these decisions start to affect a team.
I'm thinking Denver will be fine. I just wouldn't paint it all rosey.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

See by what you have just said you don't understand what RFA actually means. What actually happens is a team starts off by deciding which level of tender they want to put on a player. There are 3 options of either a 1st round tender which will cost a team about $3.3 million, 2nd round tender which will cost a team about 2.2 million and an original pick at $1.5 million. A team will designate which level they want to put them at. Then a team can make an offer to that team and if the original team does not choose to match the offer then the team that is signing the player must give up their 1st, 2nd, or original round of the player.

ERFA's cannot negotiate with other teams and have an even lower salary cap hit. Now because teams want to hold onto their draft picks so tightly very rarely in this league will teams work out a trade. Also once a certain period of time has gone by many times the teams will negotiate with the RFA's to try and sign a lower cap hit but give them more guaranteed money if say they were cut.

So for Denver they have

ERFA as
Todd Davis, Brandon McManus, Bennie Fowler, Matt Paradis, and Sam Brenner

RFA as
Brandon Marshall, Lerentee McCray, CJ Anderson

My guess for the RFA's
Brandon Marshall--2nd round tender
CJ Anderson--Original round tender
Lerentee McCray--Original round tender

So our ERFA's and RFA's will cost us approximately $7.7 million. That makes it where 8 of our FA's that you mentioned are signed.

Then you add the expected 9 draft picks we are supposed to have and all of a sudden 17 of those 25 FA spots you mentioned are now filled.

Good chance the Broncos bring back Von Miller, Brock Osweiler, and one of either Trevathan or Jackson. So then that takes us up to 20 of the 25 spots needed filled and still being under the cap.

Also we are not going to need that many anyway. We actually do have 42 players under contract for this next year. Those FA's include a very long list of players the Broncos have no plan of trying to keep.

Also let's talk value. Ronnie Hillman seems to be the guy you are obsessed with. Makes me really question how much you have actually watched him this year. He is a part time player that has some major limitations. He has an incredible strength with his speed but beyond that he doesn't have great vision, is not a break tackle kind of guy and graded out as one of the worst pass blocking RB's in the NFL this season. He is what I would consider a guy you like to have as a back up but if he is your starter then you are definitely looking to upgrade the position. He was brought in under Fox's regime and just doesn't fit the Broncos new ZBS that they want to run. I highly doubt he is a top priority to resign. Like I said for Kubiak it is more about getting the OL right. Then when it comes to RB's it is more about vision than it is about having great speed or power. Terrell Davis is the perfect example in he wasn't the fastest or strongest guy in the league but he had great vision. The Broncos look for different things when drafting a RB than other teams. A guy I could see them looking at beyond just the draft is Alfred Morris. He thrived in the ZBS under Shanahan in Washington but when Shanahan was fired Morris kind of took a back seat. He doesn't have a ton of wear and tear and to me would be a huge upgrade over either Hillman or Anderson and could be really cheap with the RB position being so downgraded.

As for finding replacements. Yeah none of us know if we will find an upgrade. At the same time you have no clue what players who didn't play much this year will step up. For the Broncos this season they had plenty of guys play above expectations. They had some draft picks that finally panned out that they had shown patience with. My expectation is the Broncos OL looks much better next season. They will get back Clady (at a reduced price as he has already said he is willing to take a pay cut) and Sambrailo and instead of having 3 starters that had never played a snap in the NFL they now have 16 games experience. It isn't ridiculous for me to expect that in year 2 for those guys that they will be better as that is the usual case in the NFL. So let's say the RB's are not as good but the OL is much better. I would take that in a heart beat. Osweiler this next year if he is our starter will have a full off season of actually being the starter of the team...Seems reasonable that the more he works in this offense and with the starters the more likely he is to be better than he was this past year.

On the defensive side of the ball not sure who we will lose. I think it is safe to say though that players the 2nd year in a new system usually feel much more comfortable. This is proven and plenty of players and coaches say it takes at least one full season before you fully understand all parts of a new system. So while we could be losing Danny Trevathan isn't it reasonable to say that with those other players being more comfortable with what they are doing that the defense could counter that loss? Also reasonable to think guys like Shane Ray with a full off season training with Von Miller will come back a better player?

Now while I understand not everything is going to be perfect for the Broncos moving forward as it is hard to stay at that championship level to me you are blowing this whole thing out of proportion with things you have already said you don't quite understand how they work.

I gave the reader digest version. Sorry I stopped reading after the 1st paragraph.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

Sorry hard to explain the actual cap in few words. It is a complicated system compared to any other league. When NWPatsfan seems to think he understands our cap situation when he clearly doesn't I guess just hard not to respond. Us Bronco fans have been talking about this upcoming off season for the past 2 years. There are so many things the Broncos could do this off season.

This is genius. There are many things the Broncos can do this offseason. Thanks for clearing that up.
Good luck Sunday, you'll need it.

 

[cdumler7]

This is genius. There are many things the Broncos can do this offseason. Thanks for clearing that up.
Good luck Sunday, you'll need it.

Oh sheesh...You sound like a bitter 5 year old. I've already shown you the Broncos can go a lot of different ways with who they sign depending on price. They are a team that could have a ton of cap space with cutting guys like Manning, Ware, and Clady where they all of a sudden have the 3rd most cap space in the entire league or they can redo a couple of those deals and say Manning retires and they don't have quite top-3 level but still decent level to decide who they want to keep. So again why it is tough to know what they are going to do and who they are going to resign or let go.

The Broncos design their contracts a little differently compared to most teams. They have been able to get most of their high priced FA's to sign contracts that are more year to year to limit dead money if needed. There is no other team in the league that can cut 3 players and get $38 million in cap space with less than $5 million in dead money. Again why it is so hard to know what the Broncos are going to do because they truly can go crazy if they want. Just as a way of showing how unique that opportunity is the Patriots would have to cut 8 players to get that kind of cap savings and would have close to $23 million in dead money from trying to do that.