How Pleased Are You That the Pats Are Out of the Big Game?

[NWPATSFAN]

Exactly...He keeps focusing on the players we are losing forgetting that plenty of other players come in. Look at our Super Bowl squad this year. Only 21 players I think of the 53 were actually on the team that went to the Super Bowl just 2 years ago. That is huge turnover. Throw in we went from historical offense to incredible defense being what got us there.

To me I look at while yes the defense maybe takes a hit with losing somebody the offense should get a huge boost because of the improvement on the OL. I've been listening to Mark Schlereth talk about the ZBS under Kubiak and he said it is a complicated system that can't be learned and perfected in a year. He said that 2nd and 3rd year in the system is when you see the fruits of what they are doing. So we have 3 guys on our OL starting that hadn't played a down in the NFL before this year who now have around 16 games experience plus Clady and Sambrailo returning. So let's say the RB's are not as good wouldn't that be countered by having a better OL? Shouldn't that help the QB when he has more time to throw to look better? So in turn that should make our entire offense look better just by the OL having learned the system and no longer being the least experienced OL of the last 10 years in the league.

CD you're awfully pationate and well read. Your also very homerish. You continually contradict yourself probably not even realizing you're doing it.
In one breath you talk about how bad some of the players Den let go did this past season. Then turn right around and say how you can bring in replacements that will replace players that helped you get to the SB. What makes you feel so confident Elway and Kubiac will make the right choice? The new pick ups may be useless.
You've also mentioned how Foles is better or should command more than Oz. Yet turn right around and boast about the up and coming OL. What good is a terrific OL with a so so QB and no back up at this point.
I'm just trying to keep it real. You on the other hand appear unable to see past your rose colored glasses.

 

[cdumler7]

CD you're awfully pationate and well read. Your also very homerish. You continually contradict yourself probably not even realizing you're doing it.
In one breath you talk about how bad some of the players Den let go did this past season. Then turn right around and say how you can bring in replacements that will replace players that helped you get to the SB. What makes you feel so confident Elway and Kubiac will make the right choice? The new pick ups may be useless.
You've also mentioned how Foles is better or should command more than Oz. Yet turn right around and boast about the up and coming OL. What good is a terrific OL with a so so QB and no back up at this point.
I'm just trying to keep it real. You on the other hand appear unable to see past your rose colored glasses.

Maybe I am not writing this well enough for you to understand. If so you have my apologies. Believe me in all I have written please understand I realize how quickly it can go down hill. I saw it after Elway left and then Terrell Davis got injured not too long after that. We went from dynasty to middle of the pack to bottom feeder in a not too long of a period. So I understand that this can happen.

When I mentioned the players from last year everybody kept talking this past off season that with losing those players the window for the Broncos competing for a Super Bowl was over especially with Manning on a very quick downhill slide. While those players worked great in our system they didn't fare well after getting the huge contract on a less talented team. They were replaceable and Elway and the Broncos saw this. While they were good players for us they were not the type that are irreplaceable. To me I view a guy like Von Miller irreplaceable. Same for you guys and Gronk. They are unique players. The Broncos have been able to do this since Elway came into town as it does seem there is very good communication between the coaches and what they want in a player for the system we run and the FO and how they scout players in both FA and the draft. It is why they have been able to find bargain players like Knighton, Sanders, Stewart, Daniels, Mathis, Walker, Marshall, and a few others that have performed well above their contracts. Same with the draft as Elway has actually done very well most years. 2013 he had a terrible year as all teams do eventually have bad years. All in all though he has done pretty well.

Just like you guys in NE that have the "In Belichick we trust" we have that same thing in Denver with Elway. He has proven it over time.

As for my Foles comment I was saying that because teams continually see FA QB's that are not resigned by their original team continue to bust when they go elsewhere I think it could keep the price of Osweiler down for other teams. It doesn't mean he is a bad player but was just saying that Foles produced better stats over more starts in his time with Philly so to say that Osweiler is going to get a much bigger contract than Foles to me doesn't make much sense. Doesn't mean that Osweiler is a bad player by any means just that we have no clue what he really is. Again why the future of the Broncos is so much up in the air. If he produces well then the future should be bright. If he is a below average starter then look for the Broncos to be a middle tier at best team moving forward.

As for the OL the Broncos boast 3 starters this year that had never started a game and a 4th that went onto IR just a few games into the season. So it makes sense that 2nd year in the system and 2nd year actually starting that they should improve as a unit. So maybe the defense does take a step back and maybe the RB position isn't quite as good next year. To me if the Broncos have a better OL that helps to cover up some of those issues. Again just have to see what happens.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

Maybe I am not writing this well enough for you to understand. If so you have my apologies. Believe me in all I have written please understand I realize how quickly it can go down hill. I saw it after Elway left and then Terrell Davis got injured not too long after that. We went from dynasty to middle of the pack to bottom feeder in a not too long of a period. So I understand that this can happen.

When I mentioned the players from last year everybody kept talking this past off season that with losing those players the window for the Broncos competing for a Super Bowl was over especially with Manning on a very quick downhill slide. While those players worked great in our system they didn't fare well after getting the huge contract on a less talented team. They were replaceable and Elway and the Broncos saw this. While they were good players for us they were not the type that are irreplaceable. To me I view a guy like Von Miller irreplaceable. Same for you guys and Gronk. They are unique players. The Broncos have been able to do this since Elway came into town as it does seem there is very good communication between the coaches and what they want in a player for the system we run and the FO and how they scout players in both FA and the draft. It is why they have been able to find bargain players like Knighton, Sanders, Stewart, Daniels, Mathis, Walker, Marshall, and a few others that have performed well above their contracts. Same with the draft as Elway has actually done very well most years. 2013 he had a terrible year as all teams do eventually have bad years. All in all though he has done pretty well.

Just like you guys in NE that have the "In Belichick we trust" we have that same thing in Denver with Elway. He has proven it over time.

As for my Foles comment I was saying that because teams continually see FA QB's that are not resigned by their original team continue to bust when they go elsewhere I think it could keep the price of Osweiler down for other teams. It doesn't mean he is a bad player but was just saying that Foles produced better stats over more starts in his time with Philly so to say that Osweiler is going to get a much bigger contract than Foles to me doesn't make much sense. Doesn't mean that Osweiler is a bad player by any means just that we have no clue what he really is. Again why the future of the Broncos is so much up in the air. If he produces well then the future should be bright. If he is a below average starter then look for the Broncos to be a middle tier at best team moving forward.

As for the OL the Broncos boast 3 starters this year that had never started a game and a 4th that went onto IR just a few games into the season. So it makes sense that 2nd year in the system and 2nd year actually starting that they should improve as a unit. So maybe the defense does take a step back and maybe the RB position isn't quite as good next year. To me if the Broncos have a better OL that helps to cover up some of those issues. Again just have to see what happens.

No you actually write it well. ALL of it. Just try cutting it down to 5 or 6 sentences vice paragraghs. We're kinda saying the same thing. You with a homer view which is understandable. Me with a more realistic view in my opinion.
My responses haven't been to negate anything Den has done building their team. Nor to say for certain they will suck next year. The intent was to shed some light on the potential what could happen this offseason. More so than the past couple due to the # of FAs restricted or otherwise. Possible Manning retiring. Tagging VM and what that can do to a players psyche and willingness to even show up on time, or ever...Or how team chemistry and intangabiles, along with some luck attribute immensely to a teams success. That's a lot of variables going into next season. Again GL

 

[cdumler7]

No you actually write it well. ALL of it. Just try cutting it down to 5 or 6 sentences vice paragraghs. We're kinda saying the same thing. You with a homer view which is understandable. Me with a more realistic view in my opinion.
My responses haven't been to negate anything Den has done building their team. Nor to say for certain they will suck next year. The intent was to shed some light on the potential what could happen this offseason. More so than the past couple due to the # of FAs restricted or otherwise. Possible Manning retiring. Tagging VM and what that can do to a players psyche and willingness to even show up on time, or ever...Or how team chemistry and intangabiles, along with some luck attribute immensely to a teams success. That's a lot of variables going into next season. Again GL

Right but really we could say that about every team. Hard to tell from one year to the next. Now yours and my team have been two of the more consistent teams here for a while which is why I do think we as fans can error on the side of optimism that our team will find success. For the Broncos they have done well with and without Manning. We won the division back in 2011 without him and Tebow at the helm. This year even when he has played he has until the playoffs been more of a hindrance than a help to the team so I do think the Broncos have shown that this stretch of winning the division goes beyond just signing Manning. But then again just have to see what happens. You are right I do error on the side that the Broncos will succeed. Not sure though I would call your view the realist side of the argument. When you have guys like Vernon Davis, Ronnie Hillman, and Bennie Fowler as key guys on the team hard to see that as being a realist. You are right that depth guys matter but they are also the easiest to replace. They are also the easiest to upgrade compared to a player that actually starts on the team. Doesn't mean they will accomplish it but it is why they are not a starter on this team.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

Right but really we could say that about every team. Hard to tell from one year to the next. Now yours and my team have been two of the more consistent teams here for a while which is why I do think we as fans can error on the side of optimism that our team will find success. For the Broncos they have done well with and without Manning. We won the division back in 2011 without him and Tebow at the helm. This year even when he has played he has until the playoffs been more of a hindrance than a help to the team so I do think the Broncos have shown that this stretch of winning the division goes beyond just signing Manning. But then again just have to see what happens. You are right I do error on the side that the Broncos will succeed. Not sure though I would call your view the realist side of the argument. When you have guys like Vernon Davis, Ronnie Hillman, and Bennie Fowler as key guys on the team hard to see that as being a realist. You are right that depth guys matter but they are also the easiest to replace. They are also the easiest to upgrade compared to a player that actually starts on the team. Doesn't mean they will accomplish it but it is why they are not a starter on this team.

Well 4 years with Manning, 4 divisional titles, 20 years before Manning 4 divisional titles. Titles have been consistent with the Manning era. They did win a division with 8 wins before him, but were also a Decker catch from losing the divisional tiebreaker for last place...


And it isn't so much that Hillman is key or irreplacable. It's that on Monday Juwan Thompson is the best back under contract and Peyton is 2nd in carries from 2015 of their players under contract. It's that you have the guy that Hillman clearly beat out as your best option currently.



I see this as a big change off-season for them. Figure Monday Denver has the smallest roster under contract in the league.

It isn't just Fowler or Vernon. It's that After DT and Sanders, 7 of their next 8 guys in receptions from this year may not be there (if Daniels retires).

It's Fowler/Norwood/Davis/Caldwell/Daniels possibly at WR/TE, leaving you Latimer and Virgil, neither who've impressed me as guys you want to throw the ball to a lot more. It's 3000 yards of rushing and receiving not under contract Monday.

And Clady may be a cap hit. That leaves what? LT, RG, C, RT to re-sign or replace? 80% of the O-line starters? Sure they weren't good. But if you want to improve them, you need to spend money if you don't have great draft position (can hope for 1-2 starters in draft?).

What about LB's? Can they afford Ware at 10 mil more? Cause if he is not in the plans or retiring, that's their top two pass rushers and their top 2 tacklers they need to replace, the entire starting LB corps.





Look at them now. 10 mil under the 2016 cap. Peyton retiring makes that 30 mil. Sounds great right?


Figure you franchise Von and get away with the LB tag. That's 13.2 mil last year, so 14.5 would be a 10% jump which is about norm.

QB's go for 12 mil a year at min (Foles/Bradford money). That's the next step up from the McCown/Sanchez/Hoyer class, and you are going after a free agent QB. So we will say 9 mil first year cap hit pushing some off with a signing bonus up front.

8 mil or so left.

4 mil you want to keep open (IR replacements)
4 mil to rookie draft picks


Need RB's backup WR's, TE's, 3-4 starters on the offensive line, replace/re-sign a key Dline starter (Jackson), backup secondary, kicker will cost 800k+...

So now you start the salary cuts/deal reworks. cut Clady and Ware... Make the call to only keep one of the MLB's, go with a meh left tackle...

 

[NWPATSFAN]

Well 4 years with Manning, 4 divisional titles, 20 years before Manning 4 divisional titles. Titles have been consistent with the Manning era. They did win a division with 8 wins before him, but were also a Decker catch from losing the divisional tiebreaker for last place...


And it isn't so much that Hillman is key or irreplacable. It's that on Monday Juwan Thompson is the best back under contract and Peyton is 2nd in carries from 2015 of their players under contract. It's that you have the guy that Hillman clearly beat out as your best option currently.



I see this as a big change off-season for them. Figure Monday Denver has the smallest roster under contract in the league.

It isn't just Fowler or Vernon. It's that After DT and Sanders, 7 of their next 8 guys in receptions from this year may not be there (if Daniels retires).

It's Fowler/Norwood/Davis/Caldwell/Daniels possibly at WR/TE, leaving you Latimer and Virgil, neither who've impressed me as guys you want to throw the ball to a lot more. It's 3000 yards of rushing and receiving not under contract Monday.

And Clady may be a cap hit. That leaves what? LT, RG, C, RT to re-sign or replace? 80% of the O-line starters? Sure they weren't good. But if you want to improve them, you need to spend money if you don't have great draft position (can hope for 1-2 starters in draft?).

What about LB's? Can they afford Ware at 10 mil more? Cause if he is not in the plans or retiring, that's their top two pass rushers and their top 2 tacklers they need to replace, the entire starting LB corps.





Look at them now. 10 mil under the 2016 cap. Peyton retiring makes that 30 mil. Sounds great right?


Figure you franchise Von and get away with the LB tag. That's 13.2 mil last year, so 14.5 would be a 10% jump which is about norm.

QB's go for 12 mil a year at min (Foles/Bradford money). That's the next step up from the McCown/Sanchez/Hoyer class, and you are going after a free agent QB. So we will say 9 mil first year cap hit pushing some off with a signing bonus up front.

8 mil or so left.

4 mil you want to keep open (IR replacements)
4 mil to rookie draft picks


Need RB's backup WR's, TE's, 3-4 starters on the offensive line, replace/re-sign a key Dline starter (Jackson), backup secondary, kicker will cost 800k+...

So now you start the salary cuts/deal reworks. cut Clady and Ware... Make the call to only keep one of the MLB's, go with a meh left tackle...

Well said

 

[cdumler7]

Well 4 years with Manning, 4 divisional titles, 20 years before Manning 4 divisional titles. Titles have been consistent with the Manning era. They did win a division with 8 wins before him, but were also a Decker catch from losing the divisional tiebreaker for last place...


And it isn't so much that Hillman is key or irreplacable. It's that on Monday Juwan Thompson is the best back under contract and Peyton is 2nd in carries from 2015 of their players under contract. It's that you have the guy that Hillman clearly beat out as your best option currently.



I see this as a big change off-season for them. Figure Monday Denver has the smallest roster under contract in the league.

It isn't just Fowler or Vernon. It's that After DT and Sanders, 7 of their next 8 guys in receptions from this year may not be there (if Daniels retires).

It's Fowler/Norwood/Davis/Caldwell/Daniels possibly at WR/TE, leaving you Latimer and Virgil, neither who've impressed me as guys you want to throw the ball to a lot more. It's 3000 yards of rushing and receiving not under contract Monday.

And Clady may be a cap hit. That leaves what? LT, RG, C, RT to re-sign or replace? 80% of the O-line starters? Sure they weren't good. But if you want to improve them, you need to spend money if you don't have great draft position (can hope for 1-2 starters in draft?).

What about LB's? Can they afford Ware at 10 mil more? Cause if he is not in the plans or retiring, that's their top two pass rushers and their top 2 tacklers they need to replace, the entire starting LB corps.





Look at them now. 10 mil under the 2016 cap. Peyton retiring makes that 30 mil. Sounds great right?


Figure you franchise Von and get away with the LB tag. That's 13.2 mil last year, so 14.5 would be a 10% jump which is about norm.

QB's go for 12 mil a year at min (Foles/Bradford money). That's the next step up from the McCown/Sanchez/Hoyer class, and you are going after a free agent QB. So we will say 9 mil first year cap hit pushing some off with a signing bonus up front.

8 mil or so left.

4 mil you want to keep open (IR replacements)
4 mil to rookie draft picks


Need RB's backup WR's, TE's, 3-4 starters on the offensive line, replace/re-sign a key Dline starter (Jackson), backup secondary, kicker will cost 800k+...

So now you start the salary cuts/deal reworks. cut Clady and Ware... Make the call to only keep one of the MLB's, go with a meh left tackle...

Thanks for the response. Again not sure why this isn't coming across. I understand the Broncos are in a big off season that can really set them up for success or failure. They have a lot of huge decisions to make.

1st--The divisional titles the Broncos have now won the division 5 times in a row. You could honestly say that Manning has helped the team to 3 of them. The first with Tebow and then this year though Manning had very little to do with. If anything he was a huge hindrance for the first 9 games of the season. To me the 5 divisional titles have more to do with hiring Elway than with getting Manning. Elway has helped build this roster to one of the deeper more talented rosters in the NFL even beyond Manning. It is why they could win this year with terrible QB play.

2nd--On Monday while technically you are correct Thompson would be our best back Anderson is a RFA and anybody thinking the Broncos won't sign him to that tender is just trolling. So we still have the guy most Bronco fans actually consider our best RB in Anderson. Also good chance they use the draft or a cheap FA (Hillman is not going to cost much on the open market so maybe they do bring him back or maybe a guy like Alfred Morris who hasn't been used much and should be looking for a prove it deal). The Broncos can have a decent looking RB group without having to go break the bank.

3rd--Again not sure why people are struggling with this RFA and ERFA thing. Fowler again falls into that group just like Anderson. The Broncos can still have him and Latimer being the back up WR's for very cheap. Good chance again they use a draft pick on this position to add depth. Vernon again has done very little with the Broncos. He is taking under 5 snaps a game. Do you really think that is irreplaceable? He has caught 1 pass the entire playoffs so far. Throw in the Broncos used a 3rd round pick on a TE this past draft that has been on IR. Now yes doesn't mean that player isn't a bust but we are talking about finding a player that can come in and replace 5 snaps a game mostly as a blocker. I don't think that should be astronomical to find.

4th--OL wise. Clady has already said he wants to take a pay cut to stay with the Broncos. So that will take care of the LT spot. They drafted their LG who started this year for us in Max Garcia. They have Paradis starting at Center all year long locked up contract wise. Vasquez is signed beyond this season for the RG spot. Sambrailo was drafted in the 2nd round and will be back from IR to start at RT. So not sure where you are getting this whole replace 80% of our OL? So what they would be spending on is the back ups not starters. Most likely they use one pick from the 1st-3rd round to help add depth and begin to build as the OL has shown it takes a year or two in the league before they are ready to start.

5th--Linebacker is the up in the air position. Ware could be a cap casualty. My guess is the team asks him to re-do his contract and if he doesn't then they cut him. They thankfully did use a 1st round draft pick on his replacement that when he did come in the game was very good. Now anybody who doesn't think the Broncos resign Von Miller is just taking crazy pills. They have already said he is top priority so they will get him locked up. Brandon Marshall again RFA so the Broncos have him signed for another year on the cheap. That leaves Trevathan as the unknown. ILB could be the position the Broncos look at in the 1st round of this upcoming draft. Again obviously nothing is perfect and the Broncos just like every team will have question marks heading into next year.

As for Contracts very easy to manipulate to help out with the Cap. I've already talked about this quite a bit but the Broncos could easily get a deal done with Von Miller like the Chiefs did with Houston where first year cap hit is $6 million.

I don't know what all the Broncos plan to do obviously. Plenty of things can happen over these next few months. Elway has shown though that he knows how to build a championship roster just fine. He took the Broncos from 2nd worst team just 5 years ago to Super Bowl twice in that time now. Once with the best offense in NFL history and now with the top defense in the league. I guess for me I have a lot of trust that Elway will continue to do a great job. I could be wrong and the whole team falls apart. Just have to see.

 

[cdumler7]

Well said

Just a quick note of why Bronco fans are not quite as enamored as you are with Hillman...

Postseason so far
Hilllman 27 carries for 54 yards with no touchdowns (2 yards per carry)
Anderson 31 carries for 144 yards and 1 touchdown (4.65 yards per carry)

Hillman has had some great runs this year don't get me wrong but he has a lot of those 2 yards or less carries that just really put drives behind the 8-ball. I mean 16 of his 17 carries went for 2 yards or less. He had 6 runs that went for negative yardage. Now maybe the game today he hits one of his big runs that really helps to secure the victory for us and I will be forever grateful but right now just not sure 1 great run every few games and not much in between is worth it to try and keep him around. I feel like we can find an upgrade to better keep our offense on track.

 

[NWPATSFAN]

Just a quick note of why Bronco fans are not quite as enamored as you are with Hillman...

Postseason so far
Hilllman 27 carries for 54 yards with no touchdowns (2 yards per carry)
Anderson 31 carries for 144 yards and 1 touchdown (4.65 yards per carry)

Hillman has had some great runs this year don't get me wrong but he has a lot of those 2 yards or less carries that just really put drives behind the 8-ball. I mean 16 of his 17 carries went for 2 yards or less. He had 6 runs that went for negative yardage. Now maybe the game today he hits one of his big runs that really helps to secure the victory for us and I will be forever grateful but right now just not sure 1 great run every few games and not much in between is worth it to try and keep him around. I feel like we can find an upgrade to better keep our offense on track.

You actually seem to to more concerned about Hillman then I. I haven't brought up his name in days. So Denvers leading rusher and player with most TDs is nothing. You're taking a sample from two games vs the year he had.
Let me out it this way. I'm not saying Hillman is on the same level as AP, Demarco or Lynch. But paired with CJ he is an integral piece to the current Denver offennse. Similar to tge Ridley & Vareen days in NE. Niether blew you away with stats but together they were very succesful.

 

[megalodon30]

Of course they're out. Everybody knows Brady can't beat Denver.

 

[RobBase]

I can't remember the last time there was his little hype going into a SB. The only fans who care about Peyton Manning are in the South. Cam doesn't get the respect he deserves because he's black I guess. Idk.

I swear the media PRAYS for a Pats SB appearance every year hoping to cash in on tearing down the villains they work so hard to create all year.

Once they were out, the media reverted back to their vapid selves. Zzzzzzz

 

[HammerDown]

Of course they're out. Everybody knows Brady can't beat Denver.

The dude's been absolutely abysmal when it counts.