Fuck Cousins, time to move on

[Sportster 72]

Ehh QB is the most important player. And the most polarizing. Thats naturally where conversation goes. Has nothing to do with football knowledge. If you ever want to debate the merits of other players at other positions Id be happy too. Theres nothing to be gained by acting too good to talk about QBs.

Sorry bud, you are lost in the sauce about what I said. I would debate any football item anytime, any day with you. That's not a I am better than you or anyone else. I know based on our previous discussions I have a lot more experience in the game. That isn't bragging, just a fact.

 

[Sportster 72]

Well thats simply not true. As I said to GK, what I value him at is completely irrelevant. He has a certain value. The market either will or will not correctly value him. The market saying hes worth 27 M a year doesnt actually make that his value. Price =/= value.

Correct! He has a certain value, that value is whatever someone will pay him ... no matter how high or how low. If the person who paid him thinks he is not living up to that value or even if the person paying him that salary decides he needs to cut costs he could be devalued. Doesn't change the fact that his value is what he is paid.

 

[gkekoa]

At worst with KC we're getting a QB not good enough to go win a SB and possibly overpaying in the process.

Im not a huge fan of paying up for another teams backup at all.

Z (the rookie contract) is a small fraction of what X would be. And the odds would be much higher than 10%.

The market values him at a certain price. That does not mean the market values him at his true value. Its not about what I think hes worth. Its about what he genuinely is worth.

Ironically most of the players who are worth more than their contracts are rookies.

*** Everything I just said is simply facts. Don't take it to mean that I am advocating for any certain course of action. Whether we like it or not - the above statements are true. Lets not lie to ourselves just because we prefer one outcome to another.

So at worst, KC is Dan Marino? I would take Dan Marino because he was never good enough to win a SB. What does overpaying have to do with anything? If you via FA you may overpay. If you draft a rookie, you may overpay.

Actually, the odds are about 10%. I have gone through every first rounder since I think 2004, posted every one of them, and about 10% were clearly better than KC while about 20% were on par with him. So no...the odds are not much greater than 10%. If you want, do a search or research it yourself.

The MARKET VALUES him...thus value...at a price.

So what is the formula for genuine value? Can you show me this magic formula?

I 100% agree with you on rookies being the ones that truly outvalue their contracts.

Not everything you said was a fact but much was.

 

[ehb5]

Sorry bud, you are lost in the sauce about what I said. I would debate any football item anytime, any day with you. That's not a I am better than you or anyone else. I know based on our previous discussions I have a lot more experience in the game. That isn't bragging, just a fact.

Yes youve been following the game for a longer time period. No, that does not make you more knowledgeable about the game.

 

[ehb5]

Correct! He has a certain value, that value is whatever someone will pay him ... no matter how high or how low. If the person who paid him thinks he is not living up to that value or even if the person paying him that salary decides he needs to cut costs he could be devalued. Doesn't change the fact that his value is what he is paid.

So if the Browns in their infinite wisdom offer him a 10 year 500 million dollar deal this offseason. Is that his true value to a team?

Or think of it this way. When did Brock Osweiler become overpaid? Answer: the second he signed the contract.

Assets get mispriced by the market. It happens.

 

[Sportster 72]

You say tomato, I say tomaato

It is his value to that team. We can argue this until the cows come home. Once again you are setting another (real or not) value that the team who paid him did not assign.

 

[Sportster 72]

I was speaking about playing and coaching.

... and yes I know I wore a leather helmet and the forward pass was just invented.

 

[ehb5]

So at worst, KC is Dan Marino? I would take Dan Marino because he was never good enough to win a SB. What does overpaying have to do with anything? If you via FA you may overpay. If you draft a rookie, you may overpay.

Actually, the odds are about 10%. I have gone through every first rounder since I think 2004, posted every one of them, and about 10% were clearly better than KC while about 20% were on par with him. So no...the odds are not much greater than 10%. If you want, do a search or research it yourself.

The MARKET VALUES him...thus value...at a price.

So what is the formula for genuine value? Can you show me this magic formula?

I 100% agree with you on rookies being the ones that truly outvalue their contracts.

Not everything you said was a fact but much was.

Oh goodness now youre just trying to be clever.

No at worst KC is not Marino. Thats a laughable takeaway to have from what I said. I think we all know Marino was good enough to win a SB. He didnt win one. But he was good enough to.

As for overpaying in any situation...yea? Of course you could overpay somebody else. When have I ever said that wasnt true?

Yes Ive gone through every 1st rounder too. Multiple times in fact, mostly because I have to keep correcting your claims about it. And by the most pessimistic calculation I could come up with the number was 20-25% at his level. You said 10% originally, although I see youre walking that back a bit now.


Lol dont be ridiculous. Of course theres no formula for genuine value. You know that. I know that. I know you know that. You know I know that. Thats why the issue of resigning him IS so complicated.

The market doesnt necessarily value him correctly.

 

[ehb5]

You say tomato, I say tomaato

It is his value to that team. We can argue this until the cows come home. Once again you are setting another (real or not) value that the team who paid him did not assign.

Im not setting anything. Im saying there is a number that represents his true value. The number he gets paid thanks to the market may or may not equal said number.

 

[ehb5]

I was speaking about playing and coaching.

... and yes I know I wore a leather helmet and the forward pass was just invented.

Sure. I dont doubt that there are plenty of things about the game that you know that I dont. I just think it goes both ways. We each have our areas of expertise so to say.

 

[skinsdad62]

value is what someone will pay to have your services it could be good value or a bad value . the market determines salaries 28 -34 mil doesnt throw the cap out of whack based on % of cap space used for the position

so at those prices its good value as it relates to cap space

 

[gkekoa]

Oh goodness now youre just trying to be clever.

No at worst KC is not Marino. Thats a laughable takeaway to have from what I said. I think we all know Marino was good enough to win a SB. He didnt win one. But he was good enough to.

As for overpaying in any situation...yea? Of course you could overpay somebody else. When have I ever said that wasnt true?

Yes Ive gone through every 1st rounder too. Multiple times in fact, mostly because I have to keep correcting your claims about it. And by the most pessimistic calculation I could come up with the number was 20-25% at his level. You said 10% originally, although I see youre walking that back a bit now.


Lol dont be ridiculous. Of course theres no formula for genuine value. You know that. I know that. I know you know that. You know I know that. Thats why the issue of resigning him IS so complicated.

The market doesnt necessarily value him correctly.

I am not being clever. Definitely being a smart ass. Point being is not good enough to win a SB is silly. Give him Seattle's defense and running game when they won, and yes he could win a SB.

You have never corrected me and I am not walking anything back. 10% better, 20% equal.

 

[Sharkinva]

Oh goodness now youre just trying to be clever.

No at worst KC is not Marino. Thats a laughable takeaway to have from what I said. I think we all know Marino was good enough to win a SB. He didnt win one. But he was good enough to.

As for overpaying in any situation...yea? Of course you could overpay somebody else. When have I ever said that wasnt true?

Yes Ive gone through every 1st rounder too. Multiple times in fact, mostly because I have to keep correcting your claims about it. And by the most pessimistic calculation I could come up with the number was 20-25% at his level. You said 10% originally, although I see youre walking that back a bit now.


Lol dont be ridiculous. Of course theres no formula for genuine value. You know that. I know that. I know you know that. You know I know that. Thats why the issue of resigning him IS so complicated.

The market doesnt necessarily value him correctly.

Actually the issue is not complicated at all.

What Cousins is going to cost is what he is going to cost. You can say he is or isnt worth it until you are blue in the face. Because say he does take a below market deal, and then wins a Super Bowl. You or no one else will be pounding the table for him to get a raise right??

So it simply comes down to does the team think we are better off with Cousins, or chasing the rookie class. You can use terms like value and his contract status to try and cloud the issue. BUt at the end of the day, if you think Cousins is the best option for the team, then you are fine with paying what it will take to keep him.

If you think he is not good for the team, then you are looking for any and every reason to ditch him.

And if you have fallen in love with the rookie class of 2018, it wont matter if Cousins is good for the team moving forward because simply put he isnt the guy you want period.

Disclaimer... the YOU in this post was the royal you and not directed at any one in general.. because you know who you are.

 

[ehb5]

I am not being clever. Definitely being a smart ass. Point being is not good enough to win a SB is silly. Give him Seattle's defense and running game when they won, and yes he could win a SB.

You have never corrected me and I am not walking anything back. 10% better, 20% equal.

Eh. Sure you can build circumstances where anybody can win. You know what I mean.

I definitely have brought up the percentages to you before. Initially in this thread you said 10% then you changed it to 20% hence why I said you were walking it back.

 

[gkekoa]

Eh. Sure you can build circumstances where anybody can win. You know what I mean.

I definitely have brought up the percentages to you before. Initially in this thread you said 10% then you changed it to 20% hence why I said you were walking it back.

I didn't change it. Look what I wrote.

 

[Sportster 72]

Sure. I dont doubt that there are plenty of things about the game that you know that I dont. I just think it goes both ways. We each have our areas of expertise so to say.

What's yours?

 

[ehb5]

What's yours?

Understanding the forward pass

 

[ehb5]

I didn't change it. Look what I wrote.

"an unproven QB with a 10% chance of being as good as our QB."

"I have gone through every first rounder since I think 2004, posted every one of them, and about 10% were clearly better than KC while about 20% were on par with him."

 

[ehb5]

Actually the issue is not complicated at all.

What Cousins is going to cost is what he is going to cost. You can say he is or isnt worth it until you are blue in the face. Because say he does take a below market deal, and then wins a Super Bowl. You or no one else will be pounding the table for him to get a raise right??

So it simply comes down to does the team think we are better off with Cousins, or chasing the rookie class. You can use terms like value and his contract status to try and cloud the issue. BUt at the end of the day, if you think Cousins is the best option for the team, then you are fine with paying what it will take to keep him.

If you think he is not good for the team, then you are looking for any and every reason to ditch him.

And if you have fallen in love with the rookie class of 2018, it wont matter if Cousins is good for the team moving forward because simply put he isnt the guy you want period.

Disclaimer... the YOU in this post was the royal you and not directed at any one in general.. because you know who you are.

Its only uncomplicated if you know that Kirk is or is not good enough to win us a SB. I dont think any of us can say that definitively either way.

What he costs 100% matters. I would say that about any player. What we pay them influences whether its a good deal. I mean - you could argue a slight overpay doesnt really matter (and maybe you'd even be right), but overpaying by its very nature is a bad policy.

Terms like value and contract status dont cloud the issue at all. They cut to the core of the issue. They ARE the issue. If you think theres any attempt at clouding things here, youre simply misreading me.

The rest of it...meh dont care. The 2018 class shouldnt impact our decision, I think we're in agreement there.

 

[gkekoa]

"an unproven QB with a 10% chance of being as good as our QB."

"I have gone through every first rounder since I think 2004, posted every one of them, and about 10% were clearly better than KC while about 20% were on par with him."

I have posted that second statement so many times, you know that is what I meant. But yes. You got me. I misspoke.