Dragic wants out

[SpartyNash13]

Goran Dragic rumors: Phoenix Suns G will not sign extension - NBA - SI.com

All aboard the tank train, trade his ass now. so pissed we signed IT in hindsight.

 

[Orange602]

Pretty sad that it's come to this with Dragic. McDonough fucked up this offseason.

 

[SunsGiantsNiners]

This really sucks I like Dragic but I dont really blame him. He does not get the touches he used to get. I'd rather have him over Thomas though.

 

[johnson]

Don't you think Dragic deserve a little more blame himself? The guy is a baby. He's still the starter, still gets the most minutes (along with Bledsoe), and while it has to suck having IT breathing down your back, deal with it. Since he came back to the Suns his stock blew up and he's fixing to get PAID so things haven't been that terrible here for him.

But I agree McDonaugh botched this horribly. The team lacks chemistry and his stockpiling guards like this predictably backfired. Just about every team that's legit in the NBA has a clear floor leader PG. The carousel system he should have known would fail.

 

[trojanfan12]

Don't you think Dragic deserve a little more blame himself? The guy is a baby. He's still the starter, still gets the most minutes (along with Bledsoe), and while it has to suck having IT breathing down your back, deal with it. Since he came back to the Suns his stock blew up and he's fixing to get PAID so things haven't been that terrible here for him.

But I agree McDonaugh botched this horribly. The team lacks chemistry and his stockpiling guards like this predictably backfired. Just about every team that's legit in the NBA has a clear floor leader PG. The carousel system he should have known would fail.

From an outside perspective, locking up all 3 point guards wasn't a bad idea. However, trying to keep them through the season and thinking that it would work, was a bad idea. These are 3 starting quality PG's and at least 2 of them are all-star quality.

As soon as the Suns got all 3 locked up, they should have started looking to trade one of them. Now they are in a position where they aren't going to get full value in a trade because teams know that they only need to wait until FA and can go after Dragic without giving anything up.

Different sport, but it reminds me of the Dodgers outfield situation last year. What seemed to be a good problem to have, wasn't such a good problem when they were all healthy and wanting to play every day.

 

[SpartyNash13]

Don't you think Dragic deserve a little more blame himself? The guy is a baby. He's still the starter, still gets the most minutes (along with Bledsoe), and while it has to suck having IT breathing down your back, deal with it. Since he came back to the Suns his stock blew up and he's fixing to get PAID so things haven't been that terrible here for him.

But I agree McDonaugh botched this horribly. The team lacks chemistry and his stockpiling guards like this predictably backfired. Just about every team that's legit in the NBA has a clear floor leader PG. The carousel system he should have known would fail.

I could not agree more. If you don't want to be here anymore and are unhappy with your role then fine, but to completely throw this organization under the bus publicly by saying "I don't trust them" is totally unprofessional, and to demand it be 3 out of 29 other teams gives Phoenix absolutely zero trade leverage; nobody will trade for a guy leaving after 3 months. Fuck Dragic, don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out of Phoenix.

 

[Arizona_Sting]

*BRANDON KNIGHT THROWS LOB TO BRANDAN WRIGHT*

 

[GMATCa]

From an outside perspective, locking up all 3 point guards wasn't a bad idea. However, trying to keep them through the season and thinking that it would work, was a bad idea. These are 3 starting quality PG's and at least 2 of them are all-star quality.

As soon as the Suns got all 3 locked up, they should have started looking to trade one of them. Now they are in a position where they aren't going to get full value in a trade because teams know that they only need to wait until FA and can go after Dragic without giving anything up.

Different sport, but it reminds me of the Dodgers outfield situation last year. What seemed to be a good problem to have, wasn't such a good problem when they were all healthy and wanting to play every day.

Well, the Suns did not keep them through the season ... experimenting for three-and-a-half months is not the worst thing in the world, especially when one considers that Bledsoe missed 41 games last season and has undergone multiple knee surgeries. What if he had gone down again, like Derrick Rose?

And the Suns received Brandon Knight from the trade, which is a good return.

 

[GMATCa]

Don't you think Dragic deserve a little more blame himself? The guy is a baby. He's still the starter, still gets the most minutes (along with Bledsoe), and while it has to suck having IT breathing down your back, deal with it. Since he came back to the Suns his stock blew up and he's fixing to get PAID so things haven't been that terrible here for him.

But I agree McDonaugh botched this horribly. The team lacks chemistry and his stockpiling guards like this predictably backfired. Just about every team that's legit in the NBA has a clear floor leader PG. The carousel system he should have known would fail.

Dragic was selfish, absolutely. Yes, he was not handling the ball as much as last year and he did have to play without the basketball more often, but the truth is that his opportunities were not down radically from last season. Consider that in '13-'14 with Phoenix, Dragic averaged 14.4 field goal attempts per game; in '14-'15 with the Suns, he averaged 13.1 field goal attempts per game, or just a little over one fewer FGA per contest. Nor, based on his field goal percentage, had the quality of his looks diminished; last season Dragic shot .505 from the field, compared to .501 this season as a Sun. His two-point field goal percentage actually increased from .542 last season to .556 this season, which is stunningly high for a guard. Last season Dragic averaged 35.1 minutes, 20.1 points, and 5.9 assists; this season in Phoenix he averaged 33.4 minutes, 16.2 points, and 4.1 assists. Yes, his numbers were down moderately, but not drastically, especially when one considers that Bledsoe missed 41 games last season. In other words, even if the Suns had not inked Thomas over the summer, Dragic's numbers may have experienced a similar decline.

People may be placing too much emphasis on the Suns signing Thomas. To my eyes (meaning that I was not charting every possession), Dragic was not handling the ball as much this season even when just he and Bledsoe were playing together. And as McDonough noted after the trade, Dragic first expressed discontent, or concern, with the Suns' roster construction after they traded for Bledsoe in the summer of 2013. Thus he might have left in free agency even if Phoenix had never inked Thomas, and Dragic stated in February that even if the Suns were to trade Thomas, he still would leave in free agency. Again, remember that Bledsoe missed half of last season, which gave Dragic more 'breathing room.'

Indeed, the situation may have been similar to when Steve Nash (privately) requested a trade from Phoenix after the 1998 season and refused to sign a contract extension as he entered the final year of his contract in order drive that request home. Nash had started 9 games after the All-Star break, as well as the Suns final playoff game, and after the season, Phoenix basically convinced Kevin Johnson not to return because Nash needed more minutes ("rightfully so," in K.J.'s mind). Shooting guard Rex Chapman had constituted Phoenix's leading scorer in '97-'98 and remained in the mix, but Nash now figured to be the Suns' clear-cut third guard behind Chapman and Jason Kidd, playing major minutes off the bench (kind of like Isaiah Thomas this season), and long-term, the Suns planned to play Nash and Kidd together, with Kidd defending the opposing shooting guard most of the time. Nash, however, wanted to run his own team and he wanted to do so right away, so he forced the Suns' hand (Phoenix received Dallas' 1999 first round draft pick, which the Suns used to select Shawn Marion).

Dragic, too, may have wanted to run his own show, meaning that the issue was not just Thomas' presence, but also possibly Bledsoe's. Of note, Dragic and Nash share the same agent—Bill Duffy.

But make no mistake: the Suns never shunted Dragic aside, as one might have imagined from his comments. Yes, he needed to make some adjustments to his role, to fit in as a member of a team rather than a guy simply running his own shot. But he was still playing a major role, averaging about the same minutes, and receiving almost as many field goal attempts as last year. He simply was not interested in making adjustments as part of a five-man unit rather than having the system revolve around him.

By the way, I would also caution against the idea that featuring a "clear-cut" point guard makes all the difference. Dwyane Wade in Miami, for instance, has always constituted the ball-dominant guard in the Heat's backcourt, even if he is nominally the "shooting guard." Indeed, did anyone see the final minute of the Miami-New Orleans game on Friday night? Wade was dominating the ball and making the plays (or attempting to do so), while Dragic was either handing the ball off to him, setting a screen for him, or (yes) standing in the corner. Granted, the sample size is only three games heading into tonight's action, but so far with the Heat, Dragic's field goal attempts per game have fallen to 11.0 (down from 13.1 this season in Phoenix and 14.4 last season), and his assists average is a modest 5.4 (up from 4.1 this season in Phoenix yet down from 5.9 last year). Indeed, remember that when Nash joined the Lakers to play with "shooting guard" Kobe Bryant, the "Black Mamba" ended up dominating the ball while Nash primarily played off the ball as his numbers plummeted. There are no discrete positions in basketball, and being the "point guard" does not necessarily mean that you will dominate the ball and run the show.

 

[GMATCa]

But make no mistake: the Suns never shunted Dragic aside, as one might have imagined from his comments. Yes, he needed to make some adjustments to his role, to fit in as a member of a team rather than a guy simply running his own shot. But he was still playing a major role, averaging about the same minutes, and receiving almost as many field goal attempts as last year. He simply was not interested in making adjustments as part of a five-man unit rather than having the system revolve around him.

That should have been "running his own show."

 

[trojanfan12]

Well, the Suns did not keep them through the season ... experimenting for three-and-a-half months is not the worst thing in the world, especially when one considers that Bledsoe missed 41 games last season and has undergone multiple knee surgeries. What if he had gone down again, like Derrick Rose?

And the Suns received Brandon Knight from the trade, which is a good return.

The only reason they didn't keep them through the season was because Dragic made it clear that he wanted out. They should have put Bledsoe on the market pretty much as soon as the ink on his contract was dry and kept Dragic.

Instead, they had to trade him and didn't get full value for him. I agree that Knight was a good return, especially considering the position they were put in when it became public knowledge that Dragic would leave.

But, they may have been able to trade Bledsoe for a big and had a more balanced team with Dragic running the show. Dragic was going to test FA, but if Bledsoe is gone and the team is more balanced, Dragic probably stays in Phoenix, especially since they could pay him the most.

 

[GMATCa]

The only reason they didn't keep them through the season was because Dragic made it clear that he wanted out. They should have put Bledsoe on the market pretty much as soon as the ink on his contract was dry and kept Dragic.

Instead, they had to trade him and didn't get full value for him. I agree that Knight was a good return, especially considering the position they were put in when it became public knowledge that Dragic would leave.

But, they may have been able to trade Bledsoe for a big and had a more balanced team with Dragic running the show. Dragic was going to test FA, but if Bledsoe is gone and the team is more balanced, Dragic probably stays in Phoenix, especially since they could pay him the most.

... depends on the big. Anthony Davis? Yes (but obviously not happening). David Lee? No. Amar'e Stoudemire? No. Enes Kanter? He would not be a good fit with Alex Len, especially in today's NBA. Do you have any names in mind? Frankly, I doubt that there would have been a match or an available big man who would have justified trading Bledsoe.

 

[Arizona_Sting]

This offseason I wouldn't mind going after DeAndre Jordan, but the only problem with that is it takes time away from Len. Doesn't seem like there are too many great PF's on the market minus Aldridge who is likely staying in Portland.

I really want to get rid of the Twins. I think they are a team cancer…. they have their little cliques on the team and I feel like it led to what happened at the deadline. I just really am not a fan of them…. wish we had a vet presence to keep them in check. Maybe they'll grow up in the next year, maybe not. I don't want to risk it and wait… trade em' while their value is high.

 

[trojanfan12]

... depends on the big. Anthony Davis? Yes (but obviously not happening). David Lee? No. Amar'e Stoudemire? No. Enes Kanter? He would not be a good fit with Alex Len, especially in today's NBA. Do you have any names in mind? Frankly, I doubt that there would have been a match or an available big man who would have justified trading Bledsoe.

Hard to say, because they didn't try. But, besides Kanter, Brook Lopez may have been worth a look or Manimal from the Nuggets. Heck, see if the Lakers would send a package that included Jordan Hill.

As for justifying trading Bledsoe, the justification is in what happened with Dragic. That was completely avoidable. They were never going to make the playoffs (or at least not advance past the first round) trying to run with 3 point guards. Had they traded Bledsoe for at least a solid big, they would have had a more balanced team and may be solidly in the playoff mix.

 

[The Derski]

Watch the Suns draft a couple PGs just to troll the fans.

 

[GMATCa]

This offseason I wouldn't mind going after DeAndre Jordan, but the only problem with that is it takes time away from Len. Doesn't seem like there are too many great PF's on the market minus Aldridge who is likely staying in Portland.

I really want to get rid of the Twins. I think they are a team cancer…. they have their little cliques on the team and I feel like it led to what happened at the deadline. I just really am not a fan of them…. wish we had a vet presence to keep them in check. Maybe they'll grow up in the next year, maybe not. I don't want to risk it and wait… trade em' while their value is high.

... the lack of a veteran presence is a problem with this team in general.

 

[Arizona_Sting]

Watch the Suns draft a couple PGs just to troll the fans.

I would quit life.

 

[GMATCa]

Hard to say, because they didn't try. But, besides Kanter, Brook Lopez may have been worth a look or Manimal from the Nuggets. Heck, see if the Lakers would send a package that included Jordan Hill.

As for justifying trading Bledsoe, the justification is in what happened with Dragic. That was completely avoidable. They were never going to make the playoffs (or at least not advance past the first round) trying to run with 3 point guards. Had they traded Bledsoe for at least a solid big, they would have had a more balanced team and may be solidly in the playoff mix.

The Suns never needed to play the three point guards simultaneously for major minutes (or any minutes, really). Besides, a quarter-century ago, Detroit won two championships (almost three) with three smallish guards, in Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, and Vinnie Johnson, who played in a rotation and sometimes played simultaneously—in an era that was much more physical, much less conducive to guard play, and where far more size could be found. Yes, the Suns' guards were not on the level of the original Isiah Thomas or Dumars, but no one was predicting championships for this Phoenix team, either.

Regardless of Dragic's fate, I would not have traded Bledsoe for B. Lopez, Faried, or Hill. B. Lopez is a good scorer, but he is not much of a rebounder or passer and he is an injury-prone player who could not have played much with Alex Len. Remember, Len is just twenty-one, he has great size, he is not stiff in his movements, he can protect the rim, and he possesses a nice shooting touch and feel for the game. He is not consistent right now, but if he stays healthy, he could become a commendable center. Faried and Hill are role players. Faried is a little undersized and possesses no real offensive game outside of fastbreak dunks, putbacks, and so forth. As he has tried to expand his offensive game, his field goal percentage has declined every season, to the point where it is now 95 points below his rookie figure three years ago. He is athletic, but his energy level comes and goes, whereas his energy level needs to be consistently high in order to create a major impact on the game. Hill, as you know, is a hustle guy who can rebound some and hit the pick-and-pop jumper inside the arc. He offers more size than Faried, but like Faried, he is miles from an All-Star level. Frankly, the Suns likely would have been no more successful in the playoffs with any of those big men than they would have been with the three guards.

As for the justification of keeping Dragic, keep in mind that he is three years older than Bledsoe. He is a better offensive player than Bledsoe right now, but Bledsoe is a much better defender and one of the best defensive guards in the league. They are both mediocre playmakers (as was Isaiah Thomas). Both possess speed, but Dragic will be twenty-nine next season and Bledsoe is stronger and more explosive (albeit shorter). Dragic's main advantage right now is that he has developed a great feel for the mid-range shooting game (defined either traditionally or by contemporary standards), but that feel came over time and with experience. Neither is remotely on the level of Chris Paul, a healthy Tony Parker, or Stephen Curry as a playoff-worthy point guard, but Bledsoe's age renders him more valuable moving forward. And overall, trading Dragic for Brandon Knight made more sense than trading Bledsoe for the kind of limited or ill-fitting big man who may have been available.

The Suns were not really going anywhere this season regardless; it's about two or three years from now, at least.

 

[trojanfan12]

The Suns never needed to play the three point guards simultaneously for major minutes (or any minutes, really). Besides, a quarter-century ago, Detroit won two championships (almost three) with three smallish guards, in Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, and Vinnie Johnson, who played in a rotation and sometimes played simultaneously—in an era that was much more physical, much less conducive to guard play, and where far more size could be found. Yes, the Suns' guards were not on the level of the original Isiah Thomas or Dumars, but no one was predicting championships for this Phoenix team, either.

Regardless of Dragic's fate, I would not have traded Bledsoe for B. Lopez, Faried, or Hill. B. Lopez is a good scorer, but he is not much of a rebounder or passer and he is an injury-prone player who could not have played much with Alex Len. Remember, Len is just twenty-one, he has great size, he is not stiff in his movements, he can protect the rim, and he possesses a nice shooting touch and feel for the game. He is not consistent right now, but if he stays healthy, he could become a commendable center. Faried and Hill are role players. Faried is a little undersized and possesses no real offensive game outside of fastbreak dunks, putbacks, and so forth. As he has tried to expand his offensive game, his field goal percentage has declined every season, to the point where it is now 95 points below his rookie figure three years ago. He is athletic, but his energy level comes and goes, whereas his energy level needs to be consistently high in order to create a major impact on the game. Hill, as you know, is a hustle guy who can rebound some and hit the pick-and-pop jumper inside the arc. He offers more size than Faried, but like Faried, he is miles from an All-Star level. Frankly, the Suns likely would have been no more successful in the playoffs with any of those big men than they would have been with the three guards.

As for the justification of keeping Dragic, keep in mind that he is three years older than Bledsoe. He is a better offensive player than Bledsoe right now, but Bledsoe is a much better defender and one of the best defensive guards in the league. They are both mediocre playmakers (as was Isaiah Thomas). Both possess speed, but Dragic will be twenty-nine next season and Bledsoe is stronger and more explosive (albeit shorter). Dragic's main advantage right now is that he has developed a great feel for the mid-range shooting game (defined either traditionally or by contemporary standards), but that feel came over time and with experience. Neither is remotely on the level of Chris Paul, a healthy Tony Parker, or Stephen Curry as a playoff-worthy point guard, but Bledsoe's age renders him more valuable moving forward. And overall, trading Dragic for Brandon Knight made more sense than trading Bledsoe for the kind of limited or ill-fitting big man who may have been available.

The Suns were not really going anywhere this season regardless; it's about two or three years from now, at least.

Those teams were also balanced teams, which the Suns weren't . Those teams always had some combination of Laimbeer, Rodman, John Salley, Rick Mohorn, Mark Aguirre and James Edwards. What bigs did the Suns have?

I get that Bledsoe is younger, but as you pointed out earlier, he was also injured and missed half of last season. If the Suns would rather keep Bledsoe because he's younger, then you trade Dragic earlier in the season (he probably would have been worth more) before he makes it clear that he wants out and you can get more for him. Like I said, Brandon Knight is a nice return and better than I thought they'd get, but they could have gotten more.

The thing for the Suns is, they didn't have to be 2-3 years away if they made the right deal. I agree that no one was picking them to win a title, but several Suns fans were on the main board talking about how well this was going to work and predicting playoffs for them.

In some ways, what the Suns had was a good problem to have. Bledsoe goes down, you have Dragic and Thomas. Dragic goes down, you have Bledsoe and Thomas. But like I pointed out earlier with the Dodgers. Having 4-5 starter to all-star caliber outfielders was a good problem to have until all of them were healthy and wanted to play "their position" every day.

 

[Win TWINS!!!]

Watch the Suns draft a couple PGs just to troll the fans.

Did you guys hire Kaaaaahn?!?!