Castillo to the Mariners for 4 Prospects

[PolarVortex]

And this is nonsense. Their odds and seed possibilities would have been higher with someone like Brandon Drury (we weren't getting Soto, so don't embarrass yourself suggesting that's who you meant) than Luis Castillo? How do our seed possibilities get better than being 1.5 games out of the top spot? We aren't catching the Astros with either move.

And no, that bat upgrade absolutely does not improve the chances of winning a 3 game series more than adding an ace. Starting pitching has so much more impact on a short playoff series than a .250 hitter does. Castillo - Ray - Gilbert is a potentially dominant trio, and you just need 2.

Now quit playing the victim and...

They needed an ace AND a bat. I think that is the point that most people are making, including myself. They (Dipoto and Service) put way too much faith in the impact that Lewis and Kelenic would have upon their return. And, no, Drury was not the guy. He already looks lost in San Diego. Cincinnati was the perfect environment for him; full-time opportunity, no media scrutiny, low expectations, hitter's ballpark.

But this lineup really needs a middle-of-the-order left-handed bat. Other than Benintendi, I don't know who that bat could have been. JRod, France, Haniger, and Suarez, presumably our 2nd-5th hitters, all hit from the right side. Throw a lefty in the middle of that and he protects the right-handed bats around him. Soto hits left-handed but he is actually having a down year. His batting average and slugging percentage have both dropped for two consecutive years. His OPS is inflated because he walks so much. And walking a guy like Soto is the equivalent of neutralizing him.

And I wouldn't count on the Castillo - Ray - Gilbert rotation in a potential playoff series. I mean, if it happens, that's great. But Gilbert looks like he is starting to hit the wall. He only has 2 quality starts in his last 9 starts after logging 8 in his first 14 starts. And he is on a pace, if you include a couple of playoff starts, of throwing about 210 innings. I believe the pre-season strategy was to keep him at about 180 innings. 210 innings this year is way too many for a pitcher in his current stage of development.

 

[PolarVortex]

Even if Kelenic becomes nothing - which it looks like that's the case - the trade is still a wash because we unloaded Cano in the trade. I've reached the point where I'm labeling Kelenic a bust, and if I'm wrong so be it.

Kelenic's swing is so beautiful when he makes contact, but he makes contact too infrequently. I can see why both the Mariners and Mets fell in love with him, but I hate to say that I don't think there is anything he can do to improve.

I agree to a certain extend with the prospect ratings. I think they are useful to a certain extent, but we should look at it more as lottery tickets. Some have better odds than others, but you can still win the jackpot either way. Prior to Julio, Kelenic was the most hyped prospect for us since Felix. Dustin Ackley's up there, but at least Dustin Ackley had a career .243 BA with the Mariners.

Kelenic is disappointing. But labeling him a bust might be premature. He was pretty solid his last 35 games last year, placing 2nd on the team in home runs and RBI over that stretch. He has enough talent to be an above-average player. His problems are in his head. If they can find him a hitting guru who speaks his language, he could still pan out. But, IMO, he already needs a change of scenery.

 

[PolarVortex]

It's like Russia vs Ukraine in here. Lots of land mines. It's nice that we actually have something to be passionate about concerning the Mariners. I think they've had, like, five winning seasons since Lou Piniella left.

 

[WizardHawk]

Kelenic is disappointing. But labeling him a bust might be premature. He was pretty solid his last 35 games last year, placing 2nd on the team in home runs and RBI over that stretch. He has enough talent to be an above-average player. His problems are in his head. If they can find him a hitting guru who speaks his language, he could still pan out. But, IMO, he already needs a change of scenery.

You are right that you can't entirely dismiss Kelenic, however IMO he needs at least one full year at AAA and maybe more. He was brought up too soon and left up too long. He's a mental case now. He needs a reset and will not find one at the ML level. Let him work his ass off all next year in Tacoma and bring him up next fall when he has a clean batting average. That .127 on the big screen is just wrecking him.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Kelenic is disappointing. But labeling him a bust might be premature. He was pretty solid his last 35 games last year, placing 2nd on the team in home runs and RBI over that stretch. He has enough talent to be an above-average player. His problems are in his head. If they can find him a hitting guru who speaks his language, he could still pan out. But, IMO, he already needs a change of scenery.

I hope you're right that he can figure something out, but I've reached the point where I've completely given up on him both as a prospect and even as a trade chip. He has enough talent to be well above average, but even during that 35 game stretch that gave me some hope as well, he still struck out 28% of the time and his batting average was still only .231 during that stretch.

 

[wazzu31]

Even if Kelenic becomes nothing - which it looks like that's the case - the trade is still a wash because we unloaded Cano in the trade. I've reached the point where I'm labeling Kelenic a bust, and if I'm wrong so be it.

Kelenic's swing is so beautiful when he makes contact, but he makes contact too infrequently. I can see why both the Mariners and Mets fell in love with him, but I hate to say that I don't think there is anything he can do to improve.

I agree to a certain extend with the prospect ratings. I think they are useful to a certain extent, but we should look at it more as lottery tickets. Some have better odds than others, but you can still win the jackpot either way. Prior to Julio, Kelenic was the most hyped prospect for us since Felix. Dustin Ackley's up there, but at least Dustin Ackley had a career .243 BA with the Mariners.

There is a huge difference though between Ackley and Kelenic. Ackley had a huge hole in his swing that once pitchers found it, his career was finished as shown by the rest of professional career. Kelenic just hasn’t figured it out at the big leagues. He doesn’t have the hole in his swing, he just has done a terrible job at adjusting to off speed pitches. No idea if he will ever get it, but it isn’t talent that is keeping him from being at minimum a serviceable hitter. I wish the Mariners could get Edgar and him together for an entire offseason.

 

[wazzu31]

They needed an ace AND a bat. I think that is the point that most people are making, including myself. They (Dipoto and Service) put way too much faith in the impact that Lewis and Kelenic would have upon their return. And, no, Drury was not the guy. He already looks lost in San Diego. Cincinnati was the perfect environment for him; full-time opportunity, no media scrutiny, low expectations, hitter's ballpark.

But this lineup really needs a middle-of-the-order left-handed bat. Other than Benintendi, I don't know who that bat could have been. JRod, France, Haniger, and Suarez, presumably our 2nd-5th hitters, all hit from the right side. Throw a lefty in the middle of that and he protects the right-handed bats around him. Soto hits left-handed but he is actually having a down year. His batting average and slugging percentage have both dropped for two consecutive years. His OPS is inflated because he walks so much. And walking a guy like Soto is the equivalent of neutralizing him.

And I wouldn't count on the Castillo - Ray - Gilbert rotation in a potential playoff series. I mean, if it happens, that's great. But Gilbert looks like he is starting to hit the wall. He only has 2 quality starts in his last 9 starts after logging 8 in his first 14 starts. And he is on a pace, if you include a couple of playoff starts, of throwing about 210 innings. I believe the pre-season strategy was to keep him at about 180 innings. 210 innings this year is way too many for a pitcher in his current stage of development.

They needed both, which is why I have wonder what the price was for both Castillo and Drury. I can’t imagine it could have been much more than what they got for Castillo, maybe Hancock. Well ok, they have to get rid of one of the 3 in Gilbert/Kirby/Hancock and 1 of the 3 former top prospects who haven’t been real big leaguers yet in Kelenic/Lewis/White. As fans we need to quit pretending Lewis’ ROTY was anything more than 1 great month by a player.

 

[seahawksfan234]

There is a huge difference though between Ackley and Kelenic. Ackley had a huge hole in his swing that once pitchers found it, his career was finished as shown by the rest of professional career. Kelenic just hasn’t figured it out at the big leagues. He doesn’t have the hole in his swing, he just has done a terrible job at adjusting to off speed pitches. No idea if he will ever get it, but it isn’t talent that is keeping him from being at minimum a serviceable hitter. I wish the Mariners could get Edgar and him together for an entire offseason.

Good points.

Kelenic has all the talent in the world, but it doesn't seem like he is able to recognize the pitches he is being thrown. When I've watched him he has the approach of take everything or swing at everything. I don't know how you fix that.