Best roster of coaches in the B1G?

[Hook'Em0608]

I agree w/ that. And while I talk alotta shit about Jimmy Jam I have always said he's a damn good CFB coach. I just can't call him 1 of the best when he hasn't won anything. Losing record against his rivals, no division titles, no conference crown, doesn't have multiple big time bowl wins & no Natty. But if you listen to a few special meeeechegan fans he's the best HC in CFB because he had success in the NFL.

Well, he needs to prove himself actually at Michigan first you would think. His reputation took a hit this year IMO. Year 3 means most of those guys are now his players. They damn sure were developed by him at this point. Year 4 he has no excuses. His first full recruiting class will be upperclassmen. That's giving him a pass for the transition class.

 

[Wamu]

Well, he needs to prove himself actually at Michigan first you would think. His reputation took a hit this year IMO. Year 3 means most of those guys are now his players. They damn sure were developed by him at this point. Year 4 he has no excuses. His first full recruiting class will be upperclassmen. That's giving him a pass for the transition class.

I never bought into the whole he needs his guy in ann arbor to succeed. After all he took Hoke's recruits & doubled the win total his 1st year. Although JH & BH's 1st 3 years as the HC are eerily similar.

JH: 28-11 & 1-2 in bowls games (0-3 vs. Ohio State)
BH: 26-13 & 1-2 in bowl games (1-2 vs. Ohio State)

 

[Hook'Em0608]

I never bought into the whole he needs his guy in ann arbor to succeed. After all he took Hoke's recruits & doubled the win total his 1st year. Although JH & BH's 1st 3 years as the HC are eerily similar.

JH: 28-11 & 1-2 in bowls games (0-3 vs. Ohio State)
BH: 26-13 & 1-2 in bowl games (1-2 vs. Ohio State)

It's kind of baffling, Harbaugh is built for the Big 10 style of play. I really expected more out of him. Michigan seems as snakebite as Texas. I guess you don't force out guys like Lloyd Carr and Mack Brown without consequences from the football gods. Apparently stagnated programs isn't an excuse to force out national title winning coaches at two schools that have struggled to win titles in the modern era.

 

[Wamu]

It's kind of baffling, Harbaugh is built for the Big 10 style of play. I really expected more out of him. Michigan seems as snakebite as Texas. I guess you don't force out guys like Lloyd Carr and Mack Brown without consequences from the football gods. Apparently stagnated programs isn't an excuse to force out national title winning coaches at two schools that have struggled to win titles in the modern era.

Whatever their issues are I hope they don't correct them anytime soon. Hope that's not overly biased coming from an Ohio State fan though. For a coach that was supposed to return to the college game & dominate from day 1 he sure is doing a lousy job of it. I have never seen a HC in any sport that has such an incomplete coaching resume yet is called 1 of the best.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

I don't really care about the recruiting rankings due to transfers, grade/morale risks that never make it to the team, injuries, etc.

I started using 247's total team talent to get a feel for the talent actually on the roster. Not what they signed. Some schools recruit the shit off of grade risks to make their rankings look better for recruiting momentum. Knowing damn good and well they will never step foot on campus.

2017

Bama #1
Georgia #4
Clemson #9
Oklahoma #16

2016

Bama #1
Ohio St #5
Clemson #9
Washington #24

2015

Alabama #1
Clemson #13
Oklahoma #16
Michigan St #23

That's as far back as it goes. I think your point probably stands overall, but it isn't impossible to get a playoff shot without top 10 talent. Almost half the teams that have gotten a shot so far haven't been in the top 10 most talented teams in college football according to recruiting rankings.

I have no doubt you will have teams who averaged outside the top 10-15 recruiting class cycle make it to the playoff occasionally — what they won’t do is win a national title, unless they have an otherworldly QB.

Baker Mayfield gave OU a shot without top 10 recruiting classes. He didn’t get it done.
Cam Newton gave Auburn a national title even though they averaged roughly top 15 classes.
DeShaun Watson gave Clemson multiple shots and won a title when being on the edge of the top 15 for the recruiting cycle.

If you go back 10 years — the national champion with lowest ranked recruiting cycle was Auburn with Cam Newton. Even then, they had two top 10 classes and averaged 14th over 4 years.

In the current format where you have to win, not just one, but two games to win a national title. The chances of a 2nd tier program pulling it off without top 10-15 recruiting cycles is a pipe dream

 

[Hook'Em0608]

I have no doubt you will have teams who averaged outside the top 10-15 recruiting class cycle make it to the playoff occasionally — what they won’t do is win a national title, unless they have an otherworldly QB.

Baker Mayfield gave OU a shot without top 10 recruiting classes. He didn’t get it done.
Cam Newton gave Auburn a national title even though they averaged roughly top 15 classes.
DeShaun Watson gave Clemson multiple shots and won a title when being on the edge of the top 15 for the recruiting cycle.

If you go back 10 years — the national champion with lowest ranked recruiting cycle was Auburn with Cam Newton. Even then, they had two top 10 classes and averaged 14th over 4 years.

In the current format where you have to win, not just one, but two games to win a national title. The chances of a 2nd tier program pulling it off without top 10-15 recruiting cycles is a pipe dream

I don't think it's a pipe dream at all, Clemson almost pulled it off with a #13 overall ranking. I don't think you will see Michigan St or Washington pull it off with rankings in the 20's though. Scheme and development can only take you so far. That is where we do agree. You still need the horses to win a national title. Until I see something different, I will agree with you.


edited to say I don't think Bama or Georgia level of recruiting is necessary.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

It's kind of baffling, Harbaugh is built for the Big 10 style of play. I really expected more out of him. Michigan seems as snakebite as Texas. I guess you don't force out guys like Lloyd Carr and Mack Brown without consequences from the football gods. Apparently stagnated programs isn't an excuse to force out national title winning coaches at two schools that have struggled to win titles in the modern era.

UM’s failure comes back to one position. The QB. The last time we had even an above average QB, it was chad henne, like a decade ago and that was barely above average.

I’m not worried about Harbaugh as coach — he has only had one QB recruit eligible to play and that was this year with Peters. From getting an extensive look at him in the bowl — he had big issues. This year coming up — UM HAS to find a QB or it will be much of the same.

Defensively — UM has been great. We had a top 3 defense last year and lost 10 starters. With 10 new starters — UM still had a top 3 defense with almost identical stats as the defense who had 10 go to the NFL.

We shall see.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

I don't think it's a pipe dream at all, Clemson almost pulled it off with a #13 overall ranking. I don't think you will see Michigan St or Washington pull it off with rankings in the 20's though. Scheme and development can only take you so far. That is where we do agree. You still need the horses to win a national title. Until I see something different, I will agree with you.


edited to say I don't think Bama or Georgia level of recruiting is necessary.

I think you will have teams like MSU, like Washington, etc. get into the playoff every couple years. When I say it is a pipe dream — it is beating not one, but two teams with more talent.

We saw how Washington and MSU fared with recruiting cycles outside the top 20. It is why teams spend millions and millions on recruiting. CFB is all about who can collect the most talent. It is unfair to 90% of the teams, but there is zero they can do about it.

 

[Hook'Em0608]

UM’s failure comes back to one position. The QB. The last time we had even an above average QB, it was chad henne, like a decade ago and that was barely above average.

I’m not worried about Harbaugh as coach — he has only had one QB recruit eligible to play and that was this year with Peters. From getting an extensive look at him in the bowl — he had big issues. This year coming up — UM HAS to find a QB or it will be much of the same.

Defensively — UM has been great. We had a top 3 defense last year and lost 10 starters. With 10 new starters — UM still had a top 3 defense with almost identical stats as the defense who had 10 go to the NFL.

We shall see.

The way Harbaugh builds a program is conductive to elite defenses. He puts the emphasis on a smash mouth team. I've still yet to see him excel without an elite QB though offensively. It's hard to line up with 2 TE's and expect to have a mediocre QB make throws to the tight windows you see with a TE heavy offense. They don't create the separation you see with WR's.

With that said, I love his offense with a good QB. Damn near unstoppable. TE's are such a weapon in the run game and when they have a QB who can make throws. It's why the NFL still loves them when the entire defense can run like NFL players can. Which negates all that separation you see from WR's in the college game.

 

[Hook'Em0608]

I think you will have teams like MSU, like Washington, etc. get into the playoff every couple years. When I say it is a pipe dream — it is beating not one, but two teams with more talent.

We saw how Washington and MSU fared with recruiting cycles outside the top 20. It is why teams spend millions and millions on recruiting. CFB is all about who can collect the most talent. It is unfair to 90% of the teams, but there is zero they can do about it.

I still think this era is a little outside the norm because of Saban. It's unusual to have a guy who can recruit and coach like him. When Nebraska was dominating college football, I doubt they ever had a team inside the 20's in total team talent if such things were kept back then.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

I still think this era is a little outside the norm because of Saban. It's unusual to have a guy who can recruit and coach like him. When Nebraska was dominating college football, I doubt they ever had a team inside the 20's in total team talent if such things were kept back then.

The difference between CFB today and back in the day is the amount of coverage high school recruits get. Back in the day, there was a mystery about recruits. Today, they have so many national camps, all star camps, all star games, etc. They have local, regional, national camps for every position group on the field. Every school knows about every recruit — very few will skip the camp circuit, because that is how they get viewed by dozens of schools at once.

The days where local kids stay at local schools and teams can dominate without stacked rosters is over. CFB is big business and the top schools will continue to hand out blank checks to coaches for whatever is needed to keep them elite. The overwhelming majority of schools cannot financially keep up with the handful who can do that.

It is just the nature of the beast.

 

[Hook'Em0608]

The difference between CFB today and back in the day is the amount of coverage high school recruits get. Back in the day, there was a mystery about recruits. Today, they have so many national camps, all star camps, all star games, etc. They have local, regional, national camps for every position group on the field. Every school knows about every recruit — very few will skip the camp circuit, because that is how they get viewed by dozens of schools at once.

The days where local kids stay at local schools and teams can dominate without stacked rosters is over. CFB is big business and the top schools will continue to hand out blank checks to coaches for whatever is needed to keep them elite. The overwhelming majority of schools cannot financially keep up with the handful who can do that.

It is just the nature of the beast.

That's true, but Nebraska won with revolutionary strength and conditioning, scheme, and finding diamonds in the rough. That and making kids from troubled areas a priority and the program building them into successes. It wasn't the Saban route of getting the best can't miss prospects and coaching them up.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

The way Harbaugh builds a program is conductive to elite defenses. He puts the emphasis on a smash mouth team. I've still yet to see him excel without an elite QB though offensively. It's hard to line up with 2 TE's and expect to have a mediocre QB make throws to the tight windows you see with a TE heavy offense. They don't create the separation you see with WR's.

With that said, I love his offense with a good QB. Damn near unstoppable. TE's are such a weapon in the run game and when they have a QB who can make throws. It's why the NFL still loves them when the entire defense can run like NFL players can. Which negates all that separation you see from WR's in the college game.

We’ve had brutal QB’s for 10 years now. The only one who put up any numbers was Denard Robinson and he was a terrible QB who was really fast. The rest have been average to below average. The ONLY team in CFB who can get by with average QB play is Alabama, who has 5 star RB’s backing up 5 star RB’s, to go along with a defense filled with 5 star recruits. Michigan will never be able to get away with shoddy QB play.

IF we find a good QB (I put IF, because it has been so long, I don’t remember what it is like) UM will be tough for anyone to beat. Unfortunately, it is WAY tougher to find a good pro style QB in CFB with the intelligence and arm needed to run the offense he is trying to run. I hope they make some changes, because they had to eliminate half the playbook because Peters (in almost 2 years still had trouble with the playcalls)

Anyways — as I said, I’m not worried about Harbaugh as a coach — UM just needs to find some stability at the QB position. This year will be the first year he has multiple choices of his own recruits in the QB room. Hopefully one takes the job and runs with it.

 

[Deep Creek]

Yes, you did. Evidently because Texas Tech is in West Texas, it means the entire conference is hindered when it comes to recruiting.

You sure are good at twisting shit. You ought to be a politician.

 

[Across The Field]

You sure are good at twisting shit. You ought to be a politician.

You sure did love harping on it and how it's next to impossible to ever get a kid to play football there in college.

BTW - It's gonna be mostly sunny and 74 this Tuesday in Lubbock.