All-Time NBA Mock Draft Playoff Game 3: WLK vs Milk

[Nosferatu]

My vote dont count buddy!

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Boselli played 6 seasons
Sterling Sharpe played 6 seasons

Both are selected as "great picks"... again his role is the thing that IMO allows him to fit in...

leonard has played 5 seasons, and ONLY one season of more than 70 games...

and now you are comparing Boselli and Sharpe who are both 5 time all star and 3 time ALL pro to a player who was only good enough to make the all star game ONCE??

 

[CitySushi]

@CitySushi who wins this matchup? Just interested on your take for fun.

I think I would have voted for WLK.

I think WLK made a mistake in starting Dumars over Nash. Yes Nash would have been a huge liability on defense against Steph, but Nash's offense and perimeter threat would be much needed especially with Shaq and Wilt in the paint. You would still have 4 elite defenders in Leonard, Pippen, Garnett and Hakeem out there to help negate a lot of Nash's defensive deficiencies.

WLK's bench though is miles better. Richmond was arguably the second best shooting guard in the NBA after Jordan for much of his prime. Jordan even said Richmond was his toughest opponent.

Hakeem and Garnett are two elite defenders. While Shaq is probably the most unstoppable force the NBA has ever seen, Hakeem held over him during their careers. Granted Hakeem was at the end of his prime towards the end and Shaq hadn't reached his peak, but there's something to be said for the way they played each other.

The thing that sets this really apart for me is Barkley is sorely misplaced at the 3 to put along side Shaq and Wilt. Barkley is one of the worst 3 point shooters in NBA history with his volume attempted. You couldn't take advantage of Barkley in the post, and use his passing which was supremely underrated because your paint was entirely clogged with Shaq and Wilt. Add to that Drexler's slashing becomes almost a non-factor because of the paint being clogged.

The last part about the fit for me is that Shaq, Wilt and even Barkley to a lesser degree are HORRIBLE pick and roll partners for Steph. It takes away a lot of Steph's advantage and play making ability, because there is absolutely no need to defend the 4 away from the hoop. You could do a double high hedge and force Steph high to give up the ball. What is Shaq or Wilt going to do with the ball 20 feet from the hoop? If that's Barkley, you let him shoot all game.

I just don't think Milk's team works. There are too many duplicate skill sets to let each player do what they do best.

 

[wlk3]

leonard has played 5 seasons, and ONLY one season of more than 70 games...

and now you are comparing Boselli and Sharpe who are both 5 time all star and 3 time ALL pro to a player who was only good enough to make the all star game ONCE??

No I'm comparing him to a short career... what 3x allstar with a 7 year career should be allowed in an all time competition...? But Curry is highly sought... why is that...? Nash is a late pick if at all..? Fem is ridiculed for selecting Bill Russell... when was the last time someone selected Bob Cousy...? Again, I think you're ignoring his strengths because of your personal hang ups, but as of today if he didn't play another game he would be known as one of greatest wing defenders all time... there may be people like you who say he hasn't played enough, but he is on a list that includes...

Sidney Moncrief
Alvin Robertson
Ron Artest
Michael Cooper
Gary Payton
Michael Jordan

And Kawhi Leonard... only 2 guys from that list have won it more than once, Moncrief and Leonard... that's why he's on the my team...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I think I would have voted for WLK.

I think WLK made a mistake in starting Dumars over Nash. Yes Nash would have been a huge liability on defense against Steph, but Nash's offense and perimeter threat would be much needed especially with Shaq and Wilt in the paint. You would still have 4 elite defenders in Leonard, Pippen, Garnett and Hakeem out there to help negate a lot of Nash's defensive deficiencies.

WLK's bench though is miles better. Richmond was arguably the second best shooting guard in the NBA after Jordan for much of his prime. Jordan even said Richmond was his toughest opponent.

Hakeem and Garnett are two elite defenders. While Shaq is probably the most unstoppable force the NBA has ever seen, Hakeem held over him during their careers. Granted Hakeem was at the end of his prime towards the end and Shaq hadn't reached his peak, but there's something to be said for the way they played each other.

The thing that sets this really apart for me is Barkley is sorely misplaced at the 3 to put along side Shaq and Wilt. Barkley is one of the worst 3 point shooters in NBA history with his volume attempted. You couldn't take advantage of Barkley in the post, and use his passing which was supremely underrated because your paint was entirely clogged with Shaq and Wilt. Add to that Drexler's slashing becomes almost a non-factor because of the paint being clogged.

The last part about the fit for me is that Shaq, Wilt and even Barkley to a lesser degree are HORRIBLE pick and roll partners for Steph. It takes away a lot of Steph's advantage and play making ability, because there is absolutely no need to defend the 4 away from the hoop. You could do a double high hedge and force Steph high to give up the ball. What is Shaq or Wilt going to do with the ball 20 feet from the hoop? If that's Barkley, you let him shoot all game.

I just don't think Milk's team works. There are too many duplicate skill sets to let each player do what they do best.

I can see what you are talking about, and don't disagree... But don't you think when a team has all the better offensive players, even if they are guarded tougher, they will still find a way to score more??

 

[MilkSpiller22]

No I'm comparing him to a short career... what 3x allstar with a 7 year career should be allowed in an all time competition...? But Curry is highly sought... why is that...? Nash is a late pick if at all..? Fem is ridiculed for selecting Bill Russell... when was the last time someone selected Bob Cousy...? Again, I think you're ignoring his strengths because of your personal hang ups, but as of today if he didn't play another game he would be known as one of greatest wing defenders all time... there may be people like you who say he hasn't played enough, but he is on a list that includes...

Sidney Moncrief
Alvin Robertson
Ron Artest
Michael Cooper
Gary Payton
Michael Jordan

And Kawhi Leonard... only 2 guys from that list have won it more than once, Moncrief and Leonard... that's why he's on the my team...

Curry is already the BEST at something... Leonard is not... you can call him an elite defender, fine... but there are many others just as good if not slightly worse whose offense would be more established...

After the first hockey draft, I asked hockey what he thought about my team... What he told me resonated to me for all the rest of my drafts...

I drafted Enforcers to protect my scorers, what he told me is that I could just get some Big burley players who had good offense instead of getting a one dimensional player... I feel like this is where you go wrong... Your defense is amazing, but your offense suffers for it...

 

[Shanemansj13]

My vote dont count buddy!

Then why the hell did you vote on my matchup

 

[wlk3]

Curry is already the BEST at something... Leonard is not... you can call him an elite defender, fine... but there are many others just as good if not slightly worse whose offense would be more established...

Okay, Durant isn't the "BEST" at something yet he gets first round selected... again show me any of those ALL-TIME great defenders that shoot anywhere near 39% from 3pt range and I'll agree... the fact that he plays on the Spurs should tell you why his numbers were way down at the beginning... they had Timmy Ginobili and Parker who were going to get their left first... he has gotten better numbers wise every year... the Spurs are said to be shopping Aldridge because it's his team now... again I get he shouldn't get full credit for taking over games yet... but he is here to do what he has proven to be great at...

 

[wlk3]

My vote dont count buddy!

I don't give a damn!

Nevermind good match Milk... good luck and don't let those imposters say you can't win because of space in your next match...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Okay, Durant isn't the "BEST" at something yet he gets first round selected... again show me any of those ALL-TIME great defenders that shoot anywhere near 39% from 3pt range and I'll agree... the fact that he plays on the Spurs should tell you why his numbers were way down at the beginning... they had Timmy Ginobili and Parker who were going to get their left first... he has gotten better numbers wise every year... the Spurs are said to be shopping Aldridge because it's his team now... again I get he shouldn't get full credit for taking over games yet... but he is here to do what he has proven to be great at...

Durant might not be the BEST at something, but his short career is on pace to be one of the greats of all time... Durant has also played 9 seasons... and all but 2 he played more than 70 games... that is enough to make a good analysis on him... and you realize Durant in 9 seasons is already considered the 23rd best forward or Guard in VORP, which is the basketball equivalence to WAR... Like the stat or not, it shows that advanced stats like him and consider him one of the best of all time...

Leonard is right now 85th from the same pool...

 

[CitySushi]

I can see what you are talking about, and don't disagree... But don't you think when a team has all the better offensive players, even if they are guarded tougher, they will still find a way to score more??

For me it's not individual ability that is the deciding factor, but how they will be able to use that ability that matters most. When you have two average teams, I would agree that the team that has the Elite level players would win most of the time. But these are not average teams. Even the 5th guy on each starting roster was one of the best of his generation at their position.

IMO, you can't compare these types of teams based on talent alone. You absolutely have to factor in how they will mesh. It's the only way that you can distinguish any sort of difference between the teams.

You look at Barkley vs Pippen matchup. On a One on One level, Barkley is much superior as a player. But why is he superior? Because he was a rebounding force, he was dominant in the post, he was great at defending bigger post players and he was a good passer from that position. If you play him at the three, with 2 other bigs out on the court, you basically took away all of Barkley's strengths. At the 3, where he's not even touching the ball a lot of times, he does nothing for the team. Also you took away his post defense which he was great at and now have him out on the perimeter guarding all the small guys, who are faster and quicker than he was. His speed and agility were a strength against other bigs, but now he's behind the 8 ball having to guard perimeter players.

In this matchup, he shouldn't be viewed as HOF Legend Charles Barkley, but viewed as what he will be in the offense, a floater with no significant perimeter skills, who has to play out on the perimeter. In this scenario Pippen is by far the better player.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I don't give a damn!

Nevermind good match Milk... good luck and don't let those imposters say you can't win because of space in your next match...

LOL.... I usually don't argue basketball, this was fun...

My curiosity in seeing a team with 2 elite centers, and my ignorance of what a slasher and other nuances are will probably cost me the championships here... But so be it...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

For me it's not individual ability that is the deciding factor, but how they will be able to use that ability that matters most. When you have two average teams, I would agree that the team that has the Elite level players would win most of the time. But these are not average teams. Even the 5th guy on each starting roster was one of the best of his generation at their position.

IMO, you can't compare these types of teams based on talent alone. You absolutely have to factor in how they will mesh. It's the only way that you can distinguish any sort of difference between the teams.

You look at Barkley vs Pippen matchup. On a One on One level, Barkley is much superior as a player. But why is he superior? Because he was a rebounding force, he was dominant in the post, he was great at defending bigger post players and he was a good passer from that position. If you play him at the three, with 2 other bigs out on the court, you basically took away all of Barkley's strengths. At the 3, where he's not even touching the ball a lot of times, he does nothing for the team. Also you took away his post defense which he was great at and now have him out on the perimeter guarding all the small guys, who are faster and quicker than he was. His speed and agility were a strength against other bigs, but now he's behind the 8 ball having to guard perimeter players.

In this matchup, he shouldn't be viewed as HOF Legend Charles Barkley, but viewed as what he will be in the offense, a floater with no significant perimeter skills, who has to play out on the perimeter. In this scenario Pippen is by far the better player.

I might weaken my strengths, or I will make them so strong that they are unbeatable...

 

[CitySushi]

I might weaken my strengths, or I will make them so strong that they are unbeatable...

It's tough to cross compare sports, but I'll try with this analogy. If you're looking to build a great defense, do you simply load up on all pass-rushers? I'm talking about all 3 of your linebacker core are pass rush specialists. No, you need that balance of guys who can cover out in the flat or are great tacklers for run support. If you ignore one aspect to just load up on guys who get after the Quarterback, you leave giant holes in your defense. While your pass-rush might be the strength of your team, it creates a weakness in itself. That's very much how basketball is when you're talking about a team of Elite players.

It's why in my last NFL draft, I drafted Rickey Jackson to be one of my outside linebackers in a 4-3 defense. Most agreed that he didn't fit there, even though he as a player might have been superior to another linebacker I could have put there. The linebacker on a one on one level might have not been as good as Jackson, but he would have been more effective for the job.

You can't load up on a pass-rush and just expect you'll sack the Quarterback every time. It doesn't work that way, and it doesn't work that way either in basketball. You can't just load up on big guys and expect them to score every time in the paint, without being able to make the defense at least defend against the others out on the court.

 

[wlk3]

LOL.... I usually don't argue basketball, this was fun...

My curiosity in seeing a team with 2 elite centers, and my ignorance of what a slasher and other nuances are will probably cost me the championships here... But so be it...

I agree, you beat me to the comment... I wanted say I'm good on losing to you because you got me all arguing and stuff... I love the argument, I always wished we had like 2 days to argue before votes and also post a gameplan not just starters and stuff... anyway, what happened here was what happened to me in the last baseball draft in that I didn't understand why a bunch of leadoff hitters wouldn't do good... Sushi did a great job saying what I was going to say so I'll leave it at that... but thanks for the argument and I look forward to spanking buns in the baseball match!