2018 draft thread

[Stymietee]

I have seen you say Jay Gruden's offense is QB friendly. What about his offense makes it so? What is he doing differently than other HCs or OCs to make his offense easier? If his offense is friendly or easier why aren't more coaches doing that? If it is QB friendly why wasn't it friendly to Griffin?

I will concede that you need players that "fit" your system before going on, however, I'll have a bit more on this later.

It's friendly by design, a design that's probably the best in the NFL, and has been nearly perfected when both McVay and Shanahan worked with him. For the QB is basically (timing) back foot hits, ball out. Studying his offensive scheme and you'll find that by design there is little for the QB to "read." (something that other HC's and OC's don't often do) His primary job is to do so quickly but see the throw before letting it go, which BTW is Kirk's biggest improvement since being named starter. (turnovers down, sacks are up, there are good sacks you know)

Well, add to that our coaching MVP (Callahan) this year and the blocking schemes associated with Gruden's offense and you understand why almost any QB would love to work in it although it takes a certain TYPE of QB to make it work. For receivers, it's execution and precise routes within some highly imaginative variations in his route tree. Although it does help to hold onto the ball an especially true statement considering the lack of a running game, which when going makes his play action lethal. You know this!!

 

[Stymietee]

If this is true, why has Andy Dalton not been better under it, with one of the best WRs in the game Tom throw to? Take it a step further, his stats haven’t really changed without Gruden either. His best seasons occurred after Gruden left as well.

Simple, Kirk Cousins is a better fit in this system than Andy Dalton. It doesn't mean that Kirk is the only fit or the best fit. There are others who fit this system far better than Kirk.

 

[Stymietee]

Without KC this year this team is 3-13,hands down . I don’t see a rookie doing what KC did this year in his first year . Expect a significant drop off : I don’t expect an old has been or a dalton or a Bradford or a bridgewatecor a Keenan or a smith or a Taylor or a mccarron doing that

BS, that's only true if you don't have a Cousins type instead of Kirk. I feel really sorry for Gruden, who's NFL career as a HC ends when either Kirk leaves or retires. I can't help you realize that Kirk is not the end all, be all, in J. Grudens system. To be sure he's a real nice fit, just not the only fit. I also know that having expectations, are often met with disappointment, In this instance, let me be the first to inform you that you'd be pleasantly surprised at what a just as good or better fit can and will do in this system. You may not want to believe it, but Bruce Allen is going to force the issue anyway. So we'll see if the Ass of Ashburn can stumble upon that truth and somehow get someone to do just that.

 

[Stymietee]

Come on man, any one could do it.

*Really need a sarcasm imoji*

Hyperbole anyone?

 

[Sharkinva]

Hyperbole anyone?

MAybe IM just a little over Redskins fans throwing more shade at the Redskins QB than Division Rivals. I have heard/read on numerous occasions how Kirk is Mediocre, the main reason why we missed the playoffs last year, the main reason why if we sign him we will have to dismantle the team. Mean while the same "fans" (and yes I use that term very loosely in this instance) have lamented on how we need to find our own version of Dak Prescott, Carson Wentz or pick your any one but Cousins. Now by and large, most of these Cousins isnt worth it guys are the same ones who wanted Gruden FIRED after he named Cousins the starter, and for the most part refused to give up on Griffin and blamed Shanahan, Gruden and Cousins for Griffins career in DC failing.

So yea, I admit Im a bit irked at the idea that any one could do it, and we would be better off continuing to chase elite.

My question these days is... how many draft picks, players careers and coaches careers need to be sacrificed to the ghost of RG3? And do we really NEED to throw a pretty good QB on the alter of Bob as well??

 

[Stymietee]

MAybe IM just a little over Redskins fans throwing more shade at the Redskins QB than Division Rivals. I have heard/read on numerous occasions how Kirk is Mediocre, the main reason why we missed the playoffs last year, the main reason why if we sign him we will have to dismantle the team. Mean while the same "fans" (and yes I use that term very loosely in this instance) have lamented on how we need to find our own version of Dak Prescott, Carson Wentz or pick your any one but Cousins. Now by and large, most of these Cousins isnt worth it guys are the same ones who wanted Gruden FIRED after he named Cousins the starter, and for the most part refused to give up on Griffin and blamed Shanahan, Gruden and Cousins for Griffins career in DC failing.

So yea, I admit Im a bit irked at the idea that any one could do it, and we would be better off continuing to chase elite.

My question these days is... how many draft picks, players careers and coaches careers need to be sacrificed to the ghost of RG3? And do we really NEED to throw a pretty good QB on the alter of Bob as well??

Maybe you should direct your ire at those who do it.

It is interesting that you continue to assert that "anyone can do it line." when NO one has ACTUALLY said that, and since you've directed this to me, it is especially true, that I haven't. Just you and a couple of others actually said or inferred it.

Now, about your question, I'm willing to bet that all of that ends when you get off of the RGIII bend. Everyone else has. BTW: No we don't HAVE to throw a pretty good QB on an imaginary RGIII alter. Kirk is going to leave I believe this completely. Hopefully, we'll all move on or watch as someone else comes in, functions as good or better than Kirk, then watch as OK'ers transform into ABC'ers. (Analogy? See: Kai Forbath)

 

[Sharkinva]

Maybe you should direct your ire at those who do it.

It is interesting that you continue to assert that "anyone can do it line." when NO one has ACTUALLY said that, and since you've directed this to me, it is especially true, that I haven't. Just you and a couple of others actually said or inferred it.

Now, about your question, I'm willing to bet that all of that ends when you get off of the RGIII bend. Everyone else has. BTW: No we don't HAVE to throw a pretty good QB on an imaginary alter. Kirk is going to leave I believe, hopefully, we'll all move on or watch as someone else comes I,n functions as good or better than Kirk, then watch as OK'er transform into ABC'ers.

When the line of reasoning is and continues to be

Colt McCoy, McCarron, Tyrod Taylor.. or hell almost any QB you name, could have and probably would have done better. Thats kinda saying any one could do what Cousins has.

Fact... most of Cousins harshest critics today, on this board, developed there resentment towards Cousins based on him replacing Bob, and by and large have predicted his failure from day one because of it. And because of that resentment, it wont matter who we put in, some folks will say.... they did the right thing.

It speaks volumes that Cousins biggest critics are Redskins "fans". And its rather telling that most of those FANS never wanted him to start to begin with. So you tell me why that is then??

 

[Sharkinva]

@Stymietee

IM going to be honest though. Im actually looking forward to Kirk leaving. Because if he does, I get to be that guy to dissect the new saviors every play. Throw out terms like Mediocre and over rated.

Because we have been a .500 team since Cousins got the start, if new savior does not come in from day one and make this a playoffs team, I can promise you as much as i have defended Cousins.. IM looking forward to being that politically correct asshole.

 

[Stymietee]

When the line of reasoning is and continues to be

Colt McCoy, McCarron, Tyrod Taylor.. or hell almost any QB you name, could have and probably would have done better. Thats kinda saying any one could do what Cousins has.

Fact... most of Cousins harshest critics today, on this board, developed there resentment towards Cousins based on him replacing Bob, and by and large have predicted his failure from day one because of it. And because of that resentment, it wont matter who we put in, some folks will say.... they did the right thing.

It speaks volumes that Cousins biggest critics are Redskins "fans". And its rather telling that most of those FANS never wanted him to start to begin with. So you tell me why that is then??

I'll admit this....you have a really good imagination. It is interesting that YOU know what's in the hearts and minds of Kirk's harshest critics and that you also know factually that Kirk's biggest critics are the team's fans when typically, another team's QB is often criticized most harshly by fans of another team. This is especially true within the division.

BTW: almost everyone here didn't want Kirk to start at first, but that was based on HIS prior play, and NOTHING whatsoever to do with Griffin.

 

[Stymietee]

@Stymietee

IM going to be honest though. Im actually looking forward to Kirk leaving. Because if he does, I get to be that guy to dissect the new saviors every play. Throw out terms like Mediocre and over rated.

Because we have been a .500 team since Cousins got the start, if new savior does not come in from day one and make this a playoffs team, I can promise you as much as i have defended Cousins.. IM looking forward to being that politically correct asshole.

That's cool....and I'll be the first to defend your right to do it.

 

[Sharkinva]

That's cool....and I'll be the first to defend your right to do it.

By the way, I guess Im not the only crazy person on the planet huh??

Perspective | Kirk Cousins and Redskins both want to split, but neither wants blame for the breakup

Broncos linebacker Von Miller said Sunday that “a lot of teams would kill to have a quarterback like [Cousins].” But a large number of Redskins fans never embraced Cousins, despite the fact that he’s only 65 yards away from a third straight 4,000-yard passing season. They’re soured by the mountains of money he commands and resent that he supplanted Robert Griffin III.

Now I just happen to think the money is actually secondary to the real resentment reason.

 

[Stymietee]

By the way, I guess Im not the only crazy person on the planet huh??

Perspective | Kirk Cousins and Redskins both want to split, but neither wants blame for the breakup

Broncos linebacker Von Miller said Sunday that “a lot of teams would kill to have a quarterback like [Cousins].” But a large number of Redskins fans never embraced Cousins, despite the fact that he’s only 65 yards away from a third straight 4,000-yard passing season. They’re soured by the mountains of money he commands and resent that he supplanted Robert Griffin III.

Now I just happen to think the money is actually secondary to the real resentment reason.

We're all crazy man, just depends on who's judging.

In as much as the rest of what you posted, it's just more hyperbole, selling points or more accurately a misuse of the all inclusivism that folks use to justify a position that doesn't hold Kirk (or themselves) to account for why some don't like him. What if, for example, some women don't like him because they see him as an ugly MF'er? That shit actually happens but it doesn't fit nicely into either of the ONLY two possible categories, right?

There are all sorts of reasons why a person is not liked, not that it's important, but to whittle them down to one of those two is, well, you said it best.....Cray, cray!! To me he's a likeable enough guy on face value. I don't buy into his BS "aw shucks" country boy public persona, but like I said, likeable enough on face value, but hey, that's me.

Beyond entertainment and a desire to support my home team, none of the players, or the vastly watered down game mean anything to me. Maybe that's why I'm able to look at a player differently than others, No emotional attachment. Kirk stays or Kirk goes has been my position from jump, I don't give a half shit about how much or how little money he's paid. Griffin is long gone and good riddance. When and if Kirk leaves, bye! We move on, because to me, come Sunday, Monday, or Thursdays, wins and hopefully, few losses are all that matter.

 

[Sharkinva]

We're all crazy man, just depends on who's judging.

In as much as the rest of what you posted, it's just more hyperbole, selling points or more accurately a misuse of the all inclusivism that folks use to justify a position that doesn't hold Kirk (or themselves) to account for why some don't like him. What if, for example, some women don't like him because they see him as an ugly MF'er? That shit actually happens but it doesn't fit nicely into either of the ONLY two possible categories, right?

There are all sorts of reasons why a person is not liked, not that it's important, but to whittle them down to one of those two is, well, you said it best.....Cray, cray!! To me he's a likeable enough guy on face value. I don't buy into his BS "aw shucks" country boy public persona, but like I said, likeable enough on face value, but hey, that's me.

Beyond entertainment and a desire to support my home team, none of the players, or the vastly watered down game mean anything to me. Maybe that's why I'm able to look at a player differently than others, No emotional attachment. Kirk stays or Kirk goes has been my position from jump, I don't give a half shit about how much or how little money he's paid. Griffin is long gone and good riddance. When and if Kirk leaves, bye! We move on, because to me, come Sunday, Monday, or Thursdays, wins and hopefully, few losses are all that matter.

Dude... you really missed your calling. But DC probably needs a mayor.

 

[Stymietee]

Dude... you really missed your calling. But DC probably needs a mayor.

Game knows game!

 

[Sportster 72]

I will concede that you need players that "fit" your system before going on, however, I'll have a bit more on this later.

It's friendly by design, a design that's probably the best in the NFL, and has been nearly perfected when both McVay and Shanahan worked with him. For the QB is basically (timing) back foot hits, ball out. Studying his offensive scheme and you'll find that by design there is little for the QB to "read." (something that other HC's and OC's don't often do) His primary job is to do so quickly but see the throw before letting it go, which BTW is Kirk's biggest improvement since being named starter. (turnovers down, sacks are up, there are good sacks you know)

Well, add to that our coaching MVP (Callahan) this year and the blocking schemes associated with Gruden's offense and you understand why almost any QB would love to work in it although it takes a certain TYPE of QB to make it work. For receivers, it's execution and precise routes within some highly imaginative variations in his route tree. Although it does help to hold onto the ball an especially true statement considering the lack of a running game, which when going makes his play action lethal. You know this!!

So the Redskins are running the back foot hits, ball out offense? Okay, I admit to being a Richard here. What you are describing is the west coast offense. The idea was shorter routes based on timing. At times that is true. I have studied the offense. I wanted to see how you explained QB friendly.

There is little to read is entirely not true. He has to call out the protections, read blitzes and where they are coming from. He then has to look at the D to figure out if it is man or zone and if he has the right play before the ball is snapped. He may change based on many things; number of men in the box, should he change because to a run or pass based on the D. Is the D running single high safety, Tampa 2, combo coverage of man and zone, quarters in the D backfield. He should have a good idea where to attack the defense before the snap. Many routes are combo routes. The WR reads his defender also. What might have been an in route becomes an out route based on the defensive players leverage (inside or outside) or maybe just based on the coverage. All of this is pre-snap.

Now the ball is snapped, he has to verify his diagnosis of the D is correct. Now comes time to influence DBs with your eyes. You have VD or Crowder going down the seem but you want to move the safety so you don't end up with bracketed coverage.

Lets flash back to Cousin's first year. He was accused and somewhat rightly so for having a low YPC average. Another he was employing the Mark Brunnell/Jason Campbell method of checking down instead of going downfield. Sacks were down because he was getting the ball downfield. Not so true the last two years because Gruden wants him going downfield more. He was near the top of league in YPA up until the last couple of weeks when they played top pass defense teams. He is still the 6th rated at this. So sacks are up because he is letting downfield plays develop. Yes that means the line has to block longer but it also means more sacks. Personally if Callahan was so damned good I think the run game would be better. It certainly was better under the Shanahan's and that was with OLineman that most wanted run out of town. I don't give him many props for our anemic run offense.

So some stuff Gruden likes to run is 4 verts (that worked best when DJax was still here) High low combinations. he runs a lot of bunch formations (they are great for creating picks.) This year he has run more stuff out of the backfield than any other season. CT was a huge plus especially considering Pryor has been a bust and Dox is still not up to speed.

As you can see there is a ton of stuff the QB has to do, not unlike most other teams.

So lets go back to QB friendly. I think Jay is an EXCELLENT QB coach even though he is the HC. Jay is a very good play caller and often figures the best plays based on what a D is doing. He works toward the strengths of QB and the rest of the players. He gave Cousin's more quick throws when the team had three lineman from McDonalds. Another thing that is huge is this is the 3rd consecutive year starting for Cousin's so he and the coach are developing together. There is continuity. All that time together allows them to make changes on the fly easier as well as just knowing each other and their strengths.

So the back foot hits, ball out offense otherwise know as the west coast offense or one of the many variations is just a normal offense. I agree with shark that many think you can just plug in an AJ McCarron or Tyrod Taylor is Josh Allen and you will have the same thing or pretty close. I also agree with shark that this is just one of the many things said to minimize what Cousin's has done. Not wholly but in part. But because I think Jay is an outstanding play caller and good with QBs I think he can do well with other QBs but you can't just plug anyone in there.

For all the guys rooting for college QBs right now, they do not know all this pre-snap stuff or not as needed at the NFL level. They just don't have time to teach kids that in the allotted time they can work with the kids. On that point I agree with Sty, most need a year to learn all this stuff but if you are a high draft choice it is hard to justify to many owners that it is a good idea.

I know it looks like I wrote a book but this is only scratching the surface. It is why so few succeed at this position.

 

[Buffalo_Nickel_1]

Allen and snyder will resign kirk but first they will play roster roulette first so that price tag for kirk wont hurt as much (source top secret)

 

[Stymietee]

So the Redskins are running the back foot hits, ball out offense? Okay, I admit to being a Richard here. What you are describing is the west coast offense. The idea was shorter routes based on timing. At times that is true. I have studied the offense. I wanted to see how you explained QB friendly.

There is little to read is entirely not true. He has to call out the protections, read blitzes and where they are coming from. He then has to look at the D to figure out if it is man or zone and if he has the right play before the ball is snapped. He may change based on many things; number of men in the box, should he change because to a run or pass based on the D. Is the D running single high safety, Tampa 2, combo coverage of man and zone, quarters in the D backfield. He should have a good idea where to attack the defense before the snap. Many routes are combo routes. The WR reads his defender also. What might have been an in route becomes an out route based on the defensive players leverage (inside or outside) or maybe just based on the coverage. All of this is pre-snap.

Now the ball is snapped, he has to verify his diagnosis of the D is correct. Now comes time to influence DBs with your eyes. You have VD or Crowder going down the seem but you want to move the safety so you don't end up with bracketed coverage.

Lets flash back to Cousin's first year. He was accused and somewhat rightly so for having a low YPC average. Another he was employing the Mark Brunnell/Jason Campbell method of checking down instead of going downfield. Sacks were down because he was getting the ball downfield. Not so true the last two years because Gruden wants him going downfield more. He was near the top of league in YPA up until the last couple of weeks when they played top pass defense teams. He is still the 6th rated at this. So sacks are up because he is letting downfield plays develop. Yes that means the line has to block longer but it also means more sacks. Personally if Callahan was so damned good I think the run game would be better. It certainly was better under the Shanahan's and that was with OLineman that most wanted run out of town. I don't give him many props for our anemic run offense.

So some stuff Gruden likes to run is 4 verts (that worked best when DJax was still here) High low combinations. he runs a lot of bunch formations (they are great for creating picks.) This year he has run more stuff out of the backfield than any other season. CT was a huge plus especially considering Pryor has been a bust and Dox is still not up to speed.

As you can see there is a ton of stuff the QB has to do, not unlike most other teams.

So lets go back to QB friendly. I think Jay is an EXCELLENT QB coach even though he is the HC. Jay is a very good play caller and often figures the best plays based on what a D is doing. He works toward the strengths of QB and the rest of the players. He gave Cousin's more quick throws when the team had three lineman from McDonalds. Another thing that is huge is this is the 3rd consecutive year starting for Cousin's so he and the coach are developing together. There is continuity. All that time together allows them to make changes on the fly easier as well as just knowing each other and their strengths.

So the back foot hits, ball out offense otherwise know as the west coast offense or one of the many variations is just a normal offense. I agree with shark that many think you can just plug in an AJ McCarron or Tyrod Taylor is Josh Allen and you will have the same thing or pretty close. I also agree with shark that this is just one of the many things said to minimize what Cousin's has done. Not wholly but in part. But because I think Jay is an outstanding play caller and good with QBs I think he can do well with other QBs but you can't just plug anyone in there.

For all the guys rooting for college QBs right now, they do not know all this pre-snap stuff or not as needed at the NFL level. They just don't have time to teach kids that in the allotted time they can work with the kids. On that point I agree with Sty, most need a year to learn all this stuff but if you are a high draft choice it is hard to justify to many owners that it is a good idea.

I know it looks like I wrote a book but this is only scratching the surface. It is why so few succeed at this position.

Pretty sure you asked for specifics......here's your entire post. Had you asked what his offense was, I certainly would have just answered it's a WCO and saved myself a lot of unnecessary typing.

"I have seen you say Jay Gruden's offense is QB friendly. What about his offense makes it so? What is he doing differently than other HCs or OCs to make his offense easier? If his offense is friendly or easier why aren't more coaches doing that? If it is QB friendly why wasn't it friendly to Griffin?"

Did you not write this?

BTW: I didn't answer that last question, so.... It didn't work for Griffin because he too was subjected to the impatient sink or swim method still employed at the NFL level. Wrote it then, will continue to say it now, regarding college players transitioning into the NFL game. He still might have failed but at least he would have had a better chance to succeed, enormous ego and all.

 

[Sportster 72]

Pretty sure you asked for specifics......here's your entire post. Had you asked what his offense was, I certainly would have just answered it's a WCO and saved myself a lot of unnecessary typing.

"I have seen you say Jay Gruden's offense is QB friendly. What about his offense makes it so? What is he doing differently than other HCs or OCs to make his offense easier? If his offense is friendly or easier why aren't more coaches doing that? If it is QB friendly why wasn't it friendly to Griffin?"

Did you not write this?

BTW: I didn't answer that last question, so.... It didn't work for Griffin because he too was subjected to the impatient sink or swim method still employed at the NFL level. Wrote it then, will continue to say it now, regarding college players transitioning into the NFL game. He still might have failed but at least he would have had a better chance to succeed, enormous ego and all.

As Admiral Ackbar or whatever that Star Wars character that Sheldon quotes on the Big Bang Theory "it's a trap."

I love the X's and O's of the game so that is why I asked what makes it a QB friendly offense. Rarely does anyone engage me in in-depth conversation. This is not surprising, most folks don't know in-depth X's and O's. So no biggie. On more than one occasion (you: AJ McCarron) and others have stated would insert one of a number of QBs in Jay's offense and have it succeed at the same level as Cousin's. Unless McCarron or someone else comes here we can't know for sure. I would say not being able to become the starter on your own team says a lot though.

So what I am saying is that although Jay is a big part of the offense so is Cousin's and I don't think this is a plug and play anyone offense. There is a lot to being a QB in this league and not many have it. At the same time I think Gruden works well with QBs who work with him and can execute his offense.

I hope Cousin's stays, it will be year 4 in his relationship with Gruden and I think the team would benefit from the familiarity.

As for Griffin he had 4 additional years to learn to play QB at the NFL level. He never did, he is out of the league. There is no hidden agenda there. He did not have the skills. He had had the arm but it mostly ended there. He is just one of many but the Redskins paid a lot for a very flawed football player.

 

[Sportster 72]

ehb I am going to watch your guy Lamar today just in case Bruce and shark decide to trade up to get him.

Darnold crapped the bed last night. I think he stays another year at USC. You guys correct me if I am wrong. Only Allen and Rudolph have shined so far. Rosen and Falk didn't play. Darnold could not duplicate what he did last year. Mayfield plays NYD I think.

 

[skinsdad62]

Where did you list them? I don't see an answer to any of my questions.

there are above