tOfficial 2015 NBA Draft/Free Agency Thread

[TurnUpTheHeat]

Only after logic is dismissed from the conversation.

I feel dirty defending LeBron so much....

I hope some of you here remember this when you accuse me of James hating.

I do hate him, but I always try to be fair.

 

[LAD]

How can losing to a better team after that, count against him?[/QUOTE]
Because the goal isn't to just beat one good team...it's to beat them ALL and claim the trophy.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

I think your take is a little deeper than what I saw here. I only saw the debate regarding wins/losses on the biggest stage. Seems like you've included the road that led to that biggest stage.

I don't see your view as right or wrong, only that you've included a larger sample to pull from. I think though at the end of the debate the comparison should include the outcome which in this case favors MJ since he has 4 more rings than LBJ.

Then there would be no debate.

It would be a simple 1 question test.
Who has more rings?

But as we all know, there are plenty of mediocre players with a lot more rings then some elite players, so to me, there has to be more in the debate then just ring count.

And, I don't know anyone here who thinks James is better than Jordan or saying that he for sure is better then some of the other names being thrown around.

It just seems like the ONE stat that is brought up to distinguish him from the others because it is about the only one where he doesn't come out on top.

 

[gordontrue]

I think your take is a little deeper than what I saw here. I only saw the debate regarding wins/losses on the biggest stage. Seems like you've included the road that led to that biggest stage.

I don't see your view as right or wrong, only that you've included a larger sample to pull from. I think though at the end of the debate the comparison should include the outcome which in this case favors MJ since he has 4 more rings than LBJ.

Of course. Not even close. No one is arguing otherwise. This isn't even about comparing anyone, to me.

 

[trojanfan12]

See... I completely disagree.

In my book... Jordan going 6 - 9 in the Finals would tremendously increase his greatness. It is undeniably a better performance. It would mean he carried those early teams through the Pistons. It would mean he carried the Wizards to the Finals. It would be unbeatable greatness, IMO.

No. There's no credit for getting there and losing. Magic made it 9 times and Jordan only 6. Kobe made it 7 times to MJ's 6. Kareem was in the finals 9 times and has just as many rings as MJ, but isn't considered the GOAT because he lost in the finals.

Sorry, no "special consideration" for Lebron. He gets judged the same as everyone else. Unfortunately for him, his record doesn't hold up against the rest.

 

[trojanfan12]

Lol, you are the one that keeps on bringing up LeBron I haven't mentioned him. I am arguing the insignificance of Finals records independent of LeBron or any other player.

I am using a hypothetical to demonstrate the idiocy of counting Finals losses as a negative on a resume, since all my other attempts to explain the obvious logic to you were failing.


If you want to read all of my posts through a "This guy is just trying to do whatever he can to defend LeBron" lense.... then that is on YOU. I would be on this side of logic regardless of what LeBron's Finals record was.

Bullshit. The only reason you're even in this discussion is to defend Lebron. It's who you posted about when you jumped in. Nice try on moving the bar and trying to act like you haven't been defending his woeful finals record.

Now you want to bring in hypotheticals to try and defend him. This after you were "done with this topic."

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

Because the goal isn't to just beat one good team...it's to beat them ALL and claim the trophy.


So then Jordan is 6/15 or 40%.
By your now logic, he falls way down the list.

 

[gordontrue]

No. There's no credit for getting there and losing. Magic made it 9 times and Jordan only 6. Kobe made it 7 times to MJ's 6. Kareem was in the finals 9 times and has just as many rings as MJ, but isn't considered the GOAT because he lost in the finals.

Sorry, no "special consideration" for Lebron. He gets judged the same as everyone else. Unfortunately for him, his record doesn't hold up against the rest.

If you're going to put words in my mouth every single post about how I'm looking for "special consideration" for LeBron... then I'm going to tell you in every post. This isn't about LeBron. I'm not looking for special consideration for LeBron.


I strongly disagree that MJ = goat because he didn't lose in the Finals. Are you serious?

He is considered (in most books) to be above Kareem and Magic because of what he did on the court. The shots he made, the moments he had, the way he consistently performed, the players he elevated - and at times - carried. Magic and Kareem had each other. Pippen is no slouch, but he isn't in the conversation of GOAT like Magic and Kareem.

 

[trojanfan12]

So then Jordan is 6/15 or 40%.
By your now logic, he falls way down the list.

Yes. Just as Magic, Kareem, etc. get their finals losses counted against them. MJ was 6-0. That's the trump card. That's why MJ is generally considered the GOAT event though others made it to the finals more times.

 

[LAD]

Then there would be no debate.

It would be a simple 1 question test.
Who has more rings?

But as we all know, there are plenty of mediocre players with a lot more rings then some elite players, so to me, there has to be more in the debate then just ring count.

And, I don't know anyone here who thinks James is better than Jordan or saying that he for sure is better then some of the other names being thrown around.

It just seems like the ONE stat that is brought up to distinguish him from the others because it is about the only one where he doesn't come out on top.

I disagree. Debating is simply two sides sharing their difference of interpretation regarding a specific subject and facts in that debate are what is used to convince others to agree or even acknowledge one's interpretation.

Having said that, clearly MJ is better than LBJ imo. His individual resume along with his # of rings makes that apparent. I never said he wasn't.

And I think the reason LBJ's Finals record is thrown out there is to combat those that say he's greater than or even equal to MJ because it just so happens that is a losing stat, not to mention on the highest level in terms of winning. Now, I'm sure if LBJ had a winning stat in that particular area that would be used by his fans to place him even closer in the MJ/LBJ debate.

 

[trojanfan12]

If you're going to put words in my mouth every single post about how I'm looking for "special consideration" for LeBron... then I'm going to tell you in every post. This isn't about LeBron. I'm not looking for special consideration for LeBron.


I strongly disagree that MJ = goat because he didn't lose in the Finals. Are you serious?

He is considered (in most books) to be above Kareem and Magic because of what he did on the court. The shots he made, the moments he had, the way he consistently performed, the players he elevated - and at times - carried. Magic and Kareem had each other. Pippen is no slouch, but he isn't in the conversation of GOAT like Magic and Kareem.

I never said that you said that. Nice try. I just said he doesn't get any more credit for losing in the finals than anyone else.

There you go again, trying to say things were being said that weren't. You really need to be "done with this topic" like you said you were. Because now you've moved past the "hypotheticals" into "just making shit up" territory.

 

[trojanfan12]

Now, I'm sure if LBJ had a winning stat in that particular area that would be used by his fans to place him even closer in the MJ/LBJ debate.

Exactly. If Lebron were 4-2 in the finals, all we'd be hearing about is how he's the GOAT.

 

[gordontrue]

Bullshit. The only reason you're even in this discussion is to defend Lebron. It's who you posted about when you jumped in. Nice try on moving the bar and trying to act like you haven't been defending his woeful finals record.

Now you want to bring in hypotheticals to try and defend him. This after you were "done with this topic."

Well I'm glad you're hear to tell me what I really think and what I'm really doing.

Here is my first post in its entirety which you claim was all about LeBron:

Anyone that thinks Finals winning percentage means something needs to brush up on their logic.

Read the remainder of the thread and you'll see me only bring up LeBron for the purpose of telling you that it's not what this is about.

I've been pointing out the ludicracy of Finals records since before LeBron even joined the Heat. Sorry, trojan... the failed logic is there no matter how much you want to make this about my supposed desperation to defend LeBron.

 

[gordontrue]

Now, I'm sure if LBJ had a winning stat in that particular area that would be used by his fans to place him even closer in the MJ/LBJ debate.

Maybe... but that wouldn't make the stat any more logical. I would be just as vocal against it.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

Yes. Just as Magic, Kareem, etc. get their finals losses counted against them. MJ was 6-0. That's the trump card. That's why MJ is generally considered the GOAT event though others made it to the finals more times.

But LAD said you need to consider beating everyone, every year, not just Finals.
It's about finding ways to beat teams you prob shouldn't.
9 times Jordan's teams didn't accomplish that.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

I disagree. Debating is simply two sides sharing their difference of interpretation regarding a specific subject and facts in that debate are what is used to convince others to agree or even acknowledge one's interpretation.

Having said that, clearly MJ is better than LBJ imo. His individual resume along with his # of rings makes that apparent. I never said he wasn't.

And I think the reason LBJ's Finals record is thrown out there is to combat those that say he's greater than or even equal to MJ because it just so happens that is a losing stat, not to mention on the highest level in terms of winning. Now, I'm sure if LBJ had a winning stat in that particular area that would be used by his fans to place him even closer in the MJ/LBJ debate.

Find/name one person here who EVER said James was better or equal to Jordan.

 

[trojanfan12]

Well I'm glad you're hear to tell me what I really think and what I'm really doing.

Pretty much exactly what you did when you talked about how I was using the winning percentage just to drag Lebron down. So yeah, you're desperate.

 

[LAD]

Because the goal isn't to just beat one good team...it's to beat them ALL and claim the trophy.


So then Jordan is 6/15 or 40%.
By your now logic, he falls way down the list.

No, no, no. Hold up. I only answered that based on the LARGER sample size you wanted to use. And furthermore, already said I don't think it's right or wrong. Never once did I say MJ would've had the better record if the sample size includes every single playoff game played. YOU were the one who wanted to include the "road" to the Finals so it muddied up the waters. Which by the way, comes across as you favoring LBJ just a tiny bit and something I would expect from a Cavs fan.

 

[gordontrue]

You really need to be "done with this topic" like you said you were.

I was done discussing it with you. I resumed the discussion with TurnUp and LAD and you came back in. Only this time you seemed willing to talk about the logic of it , giving me false hope of a useful conversation.

 

[gordontrue]

Pretty much exactly what you did when you talked about how I was using the winning percentage just to drag Lebron down. So yeah, you're desperate.

Can you please provide me a quote. I never said anything remotely close to that.