Why not bring back Manny Lawson?

[NinerSickness]

Sick, when it is third and long and we have 4 down lineman, explain to me how Manny is going to be a surprise and get to the QB?

Simple: one of the down linemen (Aldon maybe) drops back into coverage and Manny Blitzes from the other side. Or they both blitz and someone else takes the TE or RB Manny would have covered.

Manny blitzing would be a rare occurence if the Niners had 2 starters at OLB. If fact he'd probably only play like 10-12 defensive snaps a game. But he could also play on special teams.

 

[maniax]

Sick, when it is third and long and we have 4 down lineman, explain to me how Manny is going to be a surprise and get to the QB?

You are right Manny didn't rush the passer very often because he couldn't! We spent years waiting for him to develop that aspect but it never came. That ship has sailed. Let it be gone. WE NEED A 3RD DOWN PASS RUSHER. I'm so sick of hearing about coverage ability. How many times is the end dropping back in coverage on 3rd down when we are in our 43 package?

Here's their stats side by side, both have been in the league 6 years. Haralson has more sacks (21.5 to 16) but Manny has better stats across the board. I think Haralson was on the team only because he was under a "reasonable" contract.

tackles (292 vs 202) -> big difference
solo tackles (218 vs 145) -> big difference
FF (6 vs 3) -> double
FF recoveries (5 vs 4)
INTs (2 vs 0) -> Haralson couldn't catch a ball thrown right to him
passes defensed (18 vs 4) -> HUGE difference
stuffs (23 vs 19)
stuff yardage (76 vs 55)
blocked kicks (3 vs 0)

Manny Lawson Stats - Cincinnati Bengals - ESPN
Parys Haralson Stats - San Francisco 49ers - ESPN

 

[Ray_Dogg]

Simple: one of the down linemen (Aldon maybe) drops back into coverage and Manny Blitzes from the other side. Or they both blitz and someone else takes the TE or RB Manny would have covered.

Manny blitzing would be a rare occurence if the Niners had 2 starters at OLB. If fact he'd probably only play like 10-12 defensive snaps a game. But he could also play on special teams.

You want to drop our best pass rusher into coverage when he's playing end during a 43 package so Manny who would also be playing 43 end could blitz? WTF?

We have one already, All Done. So you want to sign Manny to play 10-12 snaps to share with Parys knowing full well that pass rushing is his worst attribute? Waste of space.

 

[Ray_Dogg]

Here's their stats side by side, both have been in the league 6 years. Haralson has more sacks (21.5 to 16) but Manny has better stats across the board. I think Haralson was on the team only because he was under a "reasonable" contract.

tackles (292 vs 202) -> big difference
solo tackles (218 vs 145) -> big difference
FF (6 vs 3) -> double
FF recoveries (5 vs 4)
INTs (2 vs 0) -> Haralson couldn't catch a ball thrown right to him
passes defensed (18 vs 4) -> HUGE difference
stuffs (23 vs 19)
stuff yardage (76 vs 55)
blocked kicks (3 vs 0)

Manny Lawson Stats - Cincinnati Bengals - ESPN
Parys Haralson Stats - San Francisco 49ers - ESPN

Again, you just showed me who the better pass rusher is. So explain to me how signing Manny to replace Parys somehow upgrades our pass rush ability on 43 downs?

 

[EaseUrStorm]

Manny would play primarily 1st and 2nd downs against TE's/RB's, and then rotate out on third down. Haralson/other PR specialist would come in on third down to bring the heat. For that reason we can't pay Lawson a lot. His speed does give you an occasional blitz, but he's not getting around tackles on third and long. He can be effective blitzing on 1st and 2nd down sporadically though.

 

[maniax]

Again, you just showed me who the better pass rusher is. So explain to me how signing Manny to replace Parys somehow upgrades our pass rush ability on 43 downs?

I never said I want to bring in Manny to replace Parys on 43 downs.

I would want Manny to start on 1st and 2nd downs, then either have a rookie grooming behind him that's better at rushing the passer than we can put in on 3rd and long downs, or wait and bring in some guy like LaBoy for a short term fix that you can plug in there and pin his ears back and tell him to go after the QB.

I think Manny is better than Parys on 1st and 2nd downs, especially in coverage, and you could probably take Parys'es paycheck and get Manny for it instead.

 

[maniax]

BTW, I forgot to mention that Parys also sucks at rushing the passer. He's really not that better than Manny. But Manny excels at everything else compared to Parys.

 

[Ray_Dogg]

I never said I want to bring in Manny to replace Parys on 43 downs.

I would want Manny to start on 1st and 2nd downs, then either have a rookie grooming behind him that's better at rushing the passer than we can put in on 3rd and long downs, or wait and bring in some guy like LaBoy for a short term fix that you can plug in there and pin his ears back and tell him to go after the QB.

I think Manny is better than Parys on 1st and 2nd downs, especially in coverage, and you could probably take Parys'es paycheck and get Manny for it instead.

Keep Parys and avoid wasting $600K in dead money on the cap this season. Instead use a roster spot on a rookie pass rusher that you project to be better than Parys and of course Manny. Use the money wisely instead of wasting it on dead money and passrushless players.

 

[maniax]

Keep Parys and avoid wasting $600K in dead money on the cap this season. Instead use a roster spot on a rookie pass rusher that you project to be better than Parys and of course Manny. Use the money wisely instead of wasting it on dead money and passrushless players.

Ideally, if we end up having the cap space, what I would want is "all of the above". It would be good to have veteran OLBs in the lineup.

1) Have Aldon start on one side (this will be "new" to him still BTW he could struggle at times in certain situations)

2) Keep Parys for one more year, let him play out his contract.

3) Sign Manny to a 3 year, $9M deal.

4) Use a 1st or 2nd round pick on the next stud OLB that will eventually replace Manny and Parys in the starting lineup.

Let them all fight it out for playing time on 1st and 2nd, and 3rd downs.

 

[Ray_Dogg]

3mill per for Manny!!! no way

 

[clyde_carbon]

I don't agree with that; I think it was clearly the right decision to let him go. He proved yet another one of my unpopular opinions (the same unpopular opinion I had about Aubrayo Franklin): he's just not that good. By letting him go his price tag has plummeted.

You know what else he proved? That he's a better player in the 3-4 than in the 4-3. So I guess he also proved you wrong?

 

[maniax]

3mill per for Manny!!! no way

Well depending on the market, and the fact that he does not pass rush that well which is the stat that everybody is going after in a 3-4 OLB, maybe hit market value will be cheaper than $3M per year.

Maybe he could be had for $2M year.

We'll see.

 

[Mozart'sGhost]

That is ridiculous. There's something called a salary cap. Of course price matters. It matters with all players including Peyton. Nobody is going to pay 60 million a year for Peyton despite the fact that he "can play" as you put it. Likewise nobody is going to pay 30 million a season for Calvin Johnson. Every player has his price. They have perceived value (price) and actual value (production). Would any team have signed Kyle Vanden Bosch for 4 million a year after the 2004? No. Did that mean he couldn't play at all? Of course not. The Titans got a bargain.

Likewise the Niners franchsied Aubrayo Franklin, and he got 7+ million for one season. Was he worth it? No. Does that mean he "can't play" at all? Of course not. He's just not worth 7+ million a season.

Now you are just being foolish.

 

[jayviabay]

Willis allowed Pettigrew to catch a TD in the redzone in the Detroit regular season game.

Willis also allowed Graham to catch the long TD over the middle in the NFC championship game.

The coverage was excellent in both of these cases but Willis got beat.

Willis is a really good coverage LB but he can be beat by the best TEs in the game, especially the ones that have a big height advantage on him.

In those same games i can mention passes that were broken up by willis and bowman. The TEs that you mentioned can do that to any LB including lawson. It is not a valid enough reason to bring him back because he is 6'5 and has shown coverage ability...

 

[jayviabay]

Ranking the 2012 Free Agents: Outside Linebackers | ProFootballFocus.com

Manny Lawson

if anything, looked more suited to the Bengals’ scheme. While Lawson may only be a two-down player (he graded negatively in coverage

 

[NinerSickness]

Instead use a roster spot on a rookie pass rusher that you project to be better than Parys and of course Manny. Use the money wisely instead of wasting it on dead money and passrushless players.

Why not do both?

I wouldn't mind a big FA pass rusher, Manny and drafting an OLB (obviously not in the first round if 2 have already signed though).

Are you saying Manny isn't even worth a roster spot?

 

[NinerSickness]

Now you are just being foolish.

No, your assertion that price doesn't matter "if you can play" is foolish.

 

[NinerSickness]

Maybe he could be had for $2M year.

We'll see.

I doubt it. The Bengals paid him 3 million last year, and the salary cap has gone up. But maybe. If i had to guess I'd say he'll get around 3 million per season.

This is so weird. About 80% of the people on the BSPN forum were crucifying me for saying the Niners should let Manny & Aubrayo go because they were so integral to the defense. Manny was talking about a contract comparable to Calvin Pace back then. Now about half of you are saying he's not even worth 2-3 million a season.

 

[maniax]

Ranking the 2012 Free Agents: Outside Linebackers | ProFootballFocus.com

Manny Lawson

if anything, looked more suited to the Bengals’ scheme. While Lawson may only be a two-down player (he graded negatively in coverage

Where is Brooks, Mario Williams, etc. on this rating chart? And Manny is still the 3rd overall rated OLB on this chart. And coverage is one of Manny's strong suits. I'm not really impressed by this chart.

 

[NinerSickness]

After having played outside in San Francisco’s 3-4, it was interesting watching Lawson adjust to playing in a four-man front. He surpassed almost all expectations and, if anything, looked more suited to the Bengals’ scheme. While Lawson may only be a two-down player (he graded negatively in coverage) he does have some versatility in that he can play with his hand on the ground if needed. He gasn’t quite had the success of Kamerion Wimbley in Oakland but he is a solid role player who should continue to improve.

Well PFF believes what I've been saying about him for years: Manny is better suited to play in a 4-3.

That said he could still be a valuable piece of the 3-4 rotation. He probably stuggled in coverage in a 4-3 because he's not used to having so much room to cover. Just because he's a great 3-4 coverage LB doesn't mean he's a great coverage 4-3 LB.