POLL Who is the #27 player in baseball history?

[calsnowskier]

Runoff for the #27 player in baseball history. Poll closes Friday AM.

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@SF11704 @Hunter Montana

 

[calsnowskier]

Sandy Koufax 1955 - 1966

3 CY, 1 MVP, 2 top 5 MVP, 1 top 5 CY, 3 down ballot MVP, 6 (+1) ASG

Bold: ERA 5, K 4, IP 2, WHIP 4, K/BB 3

165-87 W-L
2396/817 K/BB
314/137 GS/CG
2324.1 IP

 

[calsnowskier]

Frank Robinson (RF) 1956 - 1976

2 MVP, 4 top 5 MVP, 4 top 10 MVP, 5 additional seasons with MVP votes, 12 (+2) ASG, ROY, 6 SS, 2 GG

107.2, 52.9

Bold: WAR 1, R 3, HR 1, RBI 1, OPS 4, TB 1, 2B 1

OPS+ buckets

200 - 0
180 - 2
160 - 5
140 - 8
120 - 3

Alex Rodriguez (SS/3B) 1994 - 2016

3 MVP, 3 top 5 MVP, 4 top 10 MVP, 5 additional seasons with MVP votes, 14 ASG, 2 GG, 10 SS

117.6, 64.3

Bold: WAR 6, R 5, RBI 2, HR 5, 2B 1, H 1, OPS 2, TB 4

OPS+ buckets

160 - 5
140 - 3
120 - 8

Yogi Berra (C) 1946 - 1965

3 MVP, 4 top 5 MVP, 8 additional seasons with MVP votes, 15 (+3) ASG

59.5, 38.2

Bold: NA

OPS+ buckets

200 - 0
180 - 0
160 - 0
140 - 2
120 - 7

Johnny Bench (C) 1967 - 1983

2 MVP, 2 top 5 MVP, 1 top 10 MVP, 5 additional seasons with MVP votes, 14 ASG, ROY, 10 GG

75.1, 47.2

Bold: WAR 1, HR 2, RBI 3, TB 1

OPS+ buckets

200 - 0
180 - 0
160 - 1
140 - 4
120 - 5

 

[MilkSpiller22]

i am not wasting my time with Arod anymore... if he makes it to the next runoff and needs my vote to win, i will vote for him... but until then, he aint getting my vote...

really not sure who will get my vote, i will probably vote whoever will prevent a next runoff...

this is not really a debating group of players...

we have MAYBE the next best positional player(Robinson)
vs a pitcher that is more legend than substance
vs the dreaded position of catcher...


i guess if we wanted to we can at least debate Bench vs Berra... that could be a decent debate...

 

[steveringo]

Welp... those OPS+ buckets have changed my mind....

Sorry if that is a stupid reason to vote...

 

[LHG]

Welp... those OPS+ buckets have changed my mind....

Sorry if that is a stupid reason to vote...

Totally valid reason to change your vote.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

surprisingly Bench compares to Robinson better than he compares to Berra...

Bench and Robinson both have 6 100+ RBI seasons... but bench actually has a better top 6 than Robinson...

bench has also lead the league TWICE in HRs copared to Robinson only once...

Robinson just has a longer prime... But Bench compares well to Robinson's best seasons...

the real only difference is of course BA, which trickles down to OBP and OPS... where Robinson is pretty significantly better... but Bench also walked a little better at his best than Robinson...

if catcher gives the SPECIAL BONUS... i think i would have to actually vote Bench over Robinson...

they are close enough offensively, and Robinson was not exactly a defensive player...

also both won 2 WS, and both had solid WS appearances and both had a BPOT

 

[LHG]

surprisingly Bench compares to Robinson better than he compares to Berra...

Bench and Robinson both have 6 100+ RBI seasons... but bench actually has a better top 6 than Robinson...

bench has also lead the league TWICE in HRs copared to Robinson only once...

Robinson just has a longer prime... But Bench compares well to Robinson's best seasons...

the real only difference is of course BA, which trickles down to OBP and OPS... where Robinson is pretty significantly better... but Bench also walked a little better at his best than Robinson...

if catcher gives the SPECIAL BONUS... i think i would have to actually vote Bench over Robinson...

they are close enough offensively, and Robinson was not exactly a defensive player...

also both won 2 WS, and both had solid WS appearances and both had a BPOT

Robinson also hit 586 home runs compared to Bench's 389. Robinson played for 21 seasons to 17 seasons for Bench. But Robinson's home run average, per year, was 34 and Bench was 29.
Robinson also hit 528 doubles compared to Bench's 381. That is 30 doubles a season, on average, for Robinson compared to 29 for Bench.
Robinson hit 72 triples compared to Bench's 24. That is 4 triples a year for Robinson compared to 2 for Bench.
Robinson's career OBP is .389 and Bench's is .342
Robinson's career SLG is .537 and Bench's is .476
Robinson stole 204 bases compared to Bench's 68. Robinson's successful steals compared to attempts was 72.6% while Bench's was 61.3%

I don't think the offense between the two is as close as you see it.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Robinson also hit 586 home runs compared to Bench's 389. Robinson played for 21 seasons to 17 seasons for Bench. But Robinson's home run average, per year, was 34 and Bench was 29.
Robinson also hit 528 doubles compared to Bench's 381. That is 30 doubles a season, on average, for Robinson compared to 29 for Bench.
Robinson hit 72 triples compared to Bench's 24. That is 4 triples a year for Robinson compared to 2 for Bench.
Robinson's career OBP is .389 and Bench's is .342
Robinson's career SLG is .537 and Bench's is .476
Robinson stole 204 bases compared to Bench's 68. Robinson's successful steals compared to attempts was 72.6% while Bench's was 61.3%

I don't think the offense between the two is as close as you see it.

Maybe I don’t get what the level of catcher bonus there should be. If we acknowledge the fact that catcher wears down players quicker and at a more clear rate then of course we know that the player being compared to the catcher probably had a longer prime.

I do think at their best these 2 players are pretty similar.

Bench had more power, Robinson was better at getting hits.

 

[calsnowskier]

really not sure who will get my vote, i will probably vote whoever will prevent a next runoff...

I already vote primarily in an admin capacity. Of course my preference counts, but I already vote to try to trim advancement to the next round. I would prefer everyone else PRIMARILY vote based on preference.

 

[calsnowskier]

we have MAYBE the next best positional player(Robinson)

I really don’t understand why Robinson is essentially forgotten by history. He was an absolute BALLER of a player AND is a historically, non-baseball, significant figure. How is he not slobbered on like others with good stories?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I really don’t understand why Robinson is essentially forgotten by history. He was an absolute BALLER of a player AND is a historically, non-baseball, significant figure. How is he not slobbered on like others with good stories?

Call me a poser. But what did he do to make him a historically significant figure?? Is this something I should have googled before posting??

 

[calsnowskier]

Call me a poser. But what did he do to make him a historically significant figure?? Is this something I should have googled before posting??

He is the Jackie Robinson of managers.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

He is the Jackie Robinson of managers.

Well not quite. He may have been the first. But he had very little success. But yes. Thanks for the knowledge.

Not sure whether that is as well known as it should be.

 

[LHG]

Maybe I don’t get what the level of catcher bonus there should be. If we acknowledge the fact that catcher wears down players quicker and at a more clear rate then of course we know that the player being compared to the catcher probably had a longer prime.

I do think at their best these 2 players are pretty similar.

Bench had more power, Robinson was better at getting hits.

How did Bench have more power when Robinson's slugging was much higher?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

How did Bench have more power when Robinson's slugging was much higher?

is that a real question?? you realize how BA affects slugging right??

 

[MilkSpiller22]

How did Bench have more power when Robinson's slugging was much higher?

and again... not even sure what you are trying to accomplish... i stated in my first post... sure those are cherrypicked stats... but HRs and RBIs are the main power production stats...

Again, both had 6 100+ RBI seasons, and Bench was better there...

Bench also lead the league twice in HRs compared to Robinson only once...

in power stats, at the very least they are very comparable...


i never said throughout their career Robinson doesnt have better numbers...


and dont use slugging as anything, when someone already concedes on BA...

if you brought up ISO then you would have had a much better case.. and you would be right...

 

[LHG]

and again... not even sure what you are trying to accomplish... i stated in my first post... sure those are cherrypicked stats... but HRs and RBIs are the main power production stats...

Again, both had 6 100+ RBI seasons, and Bench was better there...

Bench also lead the league twice in HRs compared to Robinson only once...

in power stats, at the very least they are very comparable...


i never said throughout their career Robinson doesnt have better numbers...


and dont use slugging as anything, when someone already concedes on BA...

if you brought up ISO then you would have had a much better case.. and you would be right...

RBIs are so arbitrary, how could you call them power production stats? A better way to look at it is how guys hit with runners on base, runners in scoring position, etc?

And as for power, I brought up that Robinson averaged more doubles, more triples and more home runs per season than Bench. Even if you want to disregard slugging percentage because it includes singles, the fact that he outhit Bench on all extra base categories seems to show that he had more power.

Leading the league in home runs is also a bit arbitrary. Nice to know but a guy could lead the league in home runs with 42 one year and be third in the league with 43 another year.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

RBIs are so arbitrary, how could you call them power production stats? A better way to look at it is how guys hit with runners on base, runners in scoring position, etc?

And as for power, I brought up that Robinson averaged more doubles, more triples and more home runs per season than Bench. Even if you want to disregard slugging percentage because it includes singles, the fact that he outhit Bench on all extra base categories seems to show that he had more power.

Leading the league in home runs is also a bit arbitrary. Nice to know but a guy could lead the league in home runs with 42 one year and be third in the league with 43 another year.

you are not understanding... i said in the beginning they are close enough for me to entertain a catcher bonus... never said that Frank wasnt better...

did i cherrypick to show that the 2 players could be compared?? sure... i made that clear from the beginning.. i also look at Robinson, and i dont see the SPECIAL with him.. he is an all time great for sure... but we definitely took a a step down on the all time greats...

again, i have no clue when to bring in catcher... But i am definitely ok bringing them in before Frank Robinson...

i dont need to be shown how Robinson was the better batter, as i never said he wasnt...

 

[LHG]

you are not understanding... i said in the beginning they are close enough for me to entertain a catcher bonus... never said that Frank wasnt better...

did i cherrypick to show that the 2 players could be compared?? sure... i made that clear from the beginning.. i also look at Robinson, and i dont see the SPECIAL with him.. he is an all time great for sure... but we definitely took a a step down on the all time greats...

again, i have no clue when to bring in catcher... But i am definitely ok bringing them in before Frank Robinson...

i dont need to be shown how Robinson was the better batter, as i never said he wasnt...

Your statement that Bench had more power than Robinson was very clear. I'm arguing that he doesn't. You are using RBIs, which has nothing to do with power, to make that argument.
I think that Robinson has enough distance that the catcher bonus doesn't make up the gap.