Who belongs in the HOF??

[Nosferatu]

On the subject of HOF....Leave a Whisper by Shinedown my be the greatest CD ever

I'm gonna have to go with Operation Mindcrime by Queensryche

 

[Nosferatu]

Year before Emmitt drafted... With Tuinei, Newton, Gogan, Moose, etc. Hershel Walker 3.0 YPC (up to 4.0 when he arrived in Minnesota and got away from those guys).

More misleading info. 3.0 for Herschel in 80 freakin carries. He averaged 4.9, 4.3 and 4.2 in his 3 full seasons in Dallas.

Me thinks there were other issues that lead to 3.0 and him being traded

 

[Rockinkuwait]

Yeah Emmitt was great but you're comparing him to nobodies. Just because Hall of Famer Derrick Gainer didn't do so good doesn't mean Emmitt was amazing. Curvin Richards had 55 carries his entire career, come on...

I'm comparing him to Herschel Walker as well, 1st and 2nd round draft picks. A dozen plus different guys. Using what is there, not some pretend world "if we put player X with this team" fantasy stuff.

To me, you want to make an argument for that line. Do it like you do with McFadden and their current line. Guy can't hit 3.5 a carry over 3 consecutive years in Oakland, hits free agency and can't get more than $200k guaranteed. Gets behind Dallas' line and poof, he averages 4.6. Wow.

Not Herschel Walker... 4.3 a carry for his career in Dallas, 4.1 in Minnesota and 4.2 in Philly. That's not the line making the player to me.

I'm not saying the 90's Dallas line was bad. But they didn't look good without Emmitt behind them.

 

[broncosmitty]

I'm comparing him to Herschel Walker as well, 1st and 2nd round draft picks. A dozen plus different guys. Using what is there, not some pretend world "if we put player X with this team" fantasy stuff.

To me, you want to make an argument for that line. Do it like you do with McFadden and their current line. Guy can't hit 3.5 a carry over 3 consecutive years in Oakland, hits free agency and can't get more than $200k guaranteed. Gets behind Dallas' line and poof, he averages 4.6. Wow.

Not Herschel Walker... 4.3 a carry for his career in Dallas, 4.1 in Minnesota and 4.2 in Philly. That's not the line making the player to me.

I'm not saying the 90's Dallas line was bad. But they didn't look good without Emmitt behind them.

Was the line in BigD anything close to the same before and after Emmitt as it was with him?

I honestly don't know who got there when without looking them all up.

 

[Rockinkuwait]

Year before Emmitt drafted... With Tuinei, Newton, Gogan, Moose, etc. Hershel Walker 3.0 YPC (up to 4.0 when he arrived in Minnesota and got away from those guys).

More misleading info. 3.0 for Herschel in 80 freakin carries. He averaged 4.9, 4.3 and 4.2 in his 3 full seasons in Dallas.

Me thinks there were other issues that lead to 3.0 and him being traded

Yes, I was looking at year before Emmitt when Dallas was 24th in rush yards, 27th in rush TD's and bottom half of the league in YPC. On a roster that at the end of the year was starting Gogan, Newton, Tuinei, Stepnoski, and Daryl Johnston lead blocking.

And like I said. Herschel 4.3 in Dallas with the line there, 4.1 in Minny, 4.2 in Philly



Actually I was looking at his late career in Dallas too.

4.22 a carry in Dallas pre-Emmitt.
4.11 in Minny
4.23 in Philly.

 

[Nosferatu]

I'm comparing him to Herschel Walker as well, 1st and 2nd round draft picks. A dozen plus different guys. Using what is there, not some pretend world "if we put player X with this team" fantasy stuff.

To me, you want to make an argument for that line. Do it like you do with McFadden and their current line. Guy can't hit 3.5 a carry over 3 consecutive years in Oakland, hits free agency and can't get more than $200k guaranteed. Gets behind Dallas' line and poof, he averages 4.6. Wow.

Not Herschel Walker... 4.3 a carry for his career in Dallas, 4.1 in Minnesota and 4.2 in Philly. That's not the line making the player to me.

I'm not saying the 90's Dallas line was bad. But they didn't look good without Emmitt behind them.

None of what you just posted makes any sense to me. First you used Herschel and said 3.0 now you use his totals in Minnesota and Philadelphia. He would have been better in Minnesota but Minnesota at that time had moronic coaches who tried using him on sweeps and toss plays.

Didn't look good without Emmitt, makes no sense, aside from Emmitt the players you mentioned wouldn't look good playing 5 on 5 flag football. Not one player on that list was anywhere close to a top 100 back all time, using them to prove a point proves nothing.

 

[Nosferatu]

Yes, I was looking at year before Emmitt when Dallas was 24th in rush yards, 27th in rush TD's and bottom half of the league in YPC. On a roster that at the end of the year was starting Gogan, Newton, Tuinei, Stepnoski, and Daryl Johnston lead blocking.

And like I said. Herschel 4.3 in Dallas with the line there, 4.1 in Minny, 4.2 in Philly



Actually I was looking at his late career in Dallas too.

4.22 a carry in Dallas pre-Emmitt.
4.11 in Minny
4.23 in Philly.

The year before Emmitt the Cowboys leading rusher was Paul Palmer! You remember him right? He never started another game in the NFL after the 89 season. I don't think his problem was Dallas' offensive line not being that good.

 

[Nosferatu]

Also, Stepnoski was a rookie in 89 and only started 4 games. Moose was also a rookie.

Speaking of Daryl Johnston, Happy 50th Birthday!

 

[ehb5]

Raines

 

[Rockinkuwait]

None of what you just posted makes any sense to me. First you used Herschel and said 3.0 now you use his totals in Minnesota and Philadelphia. He would have been better in Minnesota but Minnesota at that time had moronic coaches who tried using him on sweeps and toss plays.

Didn't look good without Emmitt, makes no sense, aside from Emmitt the players you mentioned wouldn't look good playing 5 on 5 flag football. Not one player on that list was anywhere close to a top 100 back all time, using them to prove a point proves nothing.

I was using Herschel same year different teams, to show the effect of Dallas line. You brought up that it was just one year so pulled all the data for you. All I am saying is that great line didn't improve other guys. Like you say... Paul Palmer, 3.8 a carry in KC, 4.0 in Dallas, no real line effect shown. This isn't Denver with Shanahan throwing another guy out there and watching him succeed then fail elsewhere.

Of course you aren't looking at other top 100 backs, they had and were paying Emmitt. Asking for that is like asking for Peyton and Brady to play on the same team and take turns so we can see which is really best. If you need the impossible before you even open your ears to something, you probably aren't going to get it.



My point is you are basing your belief that Martin could do what Emmitt did on Emmitt's line getting more out of guys. And I am saying reality says they didn't, with bad backs, they got bad production.

But while we are in fantasy world instead of reality, are you also going to say that Martin's disappearing act in conf champs and superbowls means Dallas wouldn't have won any SB's with him too?

 

[Rockinkuwait]

Also, Stepnoski was a rookie in 89 and only started 4 games. Moose was also a rookie.

Speaking of Daryl Johnston, Happy 50th Birthday!

That's cool for Daryl.

Where was Stepnoski when Emmitt set the single season rushing TD record and had arguably the best year of his career?

 

[wlk3]

I was using Herschel same year different teams, to show the effect of Dallas line. You brought up that it was just one year so pulled all the data for you. All I am saying is that great line didn't improve other guys. Like you say... Paul Palmer, 3.8 a carry in KC, 4.0 in Dallas, no real line effect shown. This isn't Denver with Shanahan throwing another guy out there and watching him succeed then fail elsewhere.

Of course you aren't looking at other top 100 backs, they had and were paying Emmitt. Asking for that is like asking for Peyton and Brady to play on the same team and take turns so we can see which is really best. If you need the impossible before you even open your ears to something, you probably aren't going to get it.



My point is you are basing your belief that Martin could do what Emmitt did on Emmitt's line getting more out of guys. And I am saying reality says they didn't, with bad backs, they got bad production.

But while we are in fantasy world instead of reality, are you also going to say that Martin's disappearing act in conf champs and superbowls means Dallas wouldn't have won any SB's with him too?

You should join our next draft...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

You should join our next draft...

52 posts and 5 here on the mock that are more thought out than i have ever posted... Get rid of him!!!

 

[Nosferatu]

I was using Herschel same year different teams, to show the effect of Dallas line. You brought up that it was just one year so pulled all the data for you. All I am saying is that great line didn't improve other guys. Like you say... Paul Palmer, 3.8 a carry in KC, 4.0 in Dallas, no real line effect shown. This isn't Denver with Shanahan throwing another guy out there and watching him succeed then fail elsewhere.

Of course you aren't looking at other top 100 backs, they had and were paying Emmitt. Asking for that is like asking for Peyton and Brady to play on the same team and take turns so we can see which is really best. If you need the impossible before you even open your ears to something, you probably aren't going to get it.



My point is you are basing your belief that Martin could do what Emmitt did on Emmitt's line getting more out of guys. And I am saying reality says they didn't, with bad backs, they got bad production.

But while we are in fantasy world instead of reality, are you also going to say that Martin's disappearing act in conf champs and superbowls means Dallas wouldn't have won any SB's with him too?

This is the entire point, you're using players that sucked to try and prove a point, that doesn't work period, if a RB doesn't have it he doesn't have it. I'd say 90% of people that actually watched football from the 80's to now will say Dallas' offensive line back then is top 3 all time. But you think otherwise. Gotcha...

LOLZZZ, you mean Emmitt averaging 4.5 YPC on Championship teams and Martin averaging 4.4 YPC in the playoffs, yeah huge difference there, or maybe Curtis having 37 receptions in 10 games vs Emmitt having 46 in 17 games. Dissapearing act in the Super Bowl? You mean the one Bledsoe threw the ball 48 times in? The one where Martin had an 18 yard TD run to cut the lead to 6 before Howard's KO return. They only ran him 11 times, yeah that's his fault.

Welcome to reality!

 

[Nosferatu]

2

 

[Nosferatu]

Triple post yay!

 

[Rockinkuwait]

I get his point that having a great line was a positive for Emmitt, and I'd love to knock him and say plug in a good back and you'd get the same thing, but I just didn't see other backs look better than they really were in that system. Bad backs gave bad production. Herschel gave Herschel production. Emmitt I think gave Emmitt production.

I would love it if you had a Ron Dayne (awful but in Shanny/Kubiak systems/lines looked like a solid back). Or a Selvin Young type who wasn't an NFL worthy back but looked it there. Or like guys behind the Hogs in Washington like Joe Washington or Kelvin Bryant (or their QBs being untouchable). I'd love that nobody back to have stepped up as I hated Emmitt more than any other player in the NFL. I was so psyched when he was holding out that year. But no, he came back in time for both games and just slaughtered my Eagles, somthing like 400+ yards against them.

 

[UK Cowboy]

Also, Stepnoski was a rookie in 89 and only started 4 games. Moose was also a rookie.

Speaking of Daryl Johnston, Happy 50th Birthday!

Its chicken and egg with Emmitt though. A lot of the guys, with the exception of Erik Williams, weren't that highly thought of before Emmitt showed up. By the time Larry Allen arrived, Emmitt was already killing it
One thing on rushing averages....Emmitts average if he were used the same way a lot of other back were used would be 5.5-6.0. Not exaggerating that number. Dallas didn't bring in a "short yardage" back on 3rd and 1, 4th and 1, or 4 rushes from inside the 5 against a goal line front. Give him 7-8 short yardage carries per game where he gets 10-12 tough yards(and moves the chain or scores), and back that out of a 25 carry 105 yard game...that 4.2 average turns into 5.5 when it's 17 for 93

 

[Nosferatu]

Its chicken and egg with Emmitt though. A lot of the guys, with the exception of Erik Williams, weren't that highly thought of before Emmitt showed up. By the time Larry Allen arrived, Emmitt was already killing it
One thing on rushing averages....Emmitts average if he were used the same way a lot of other back were used would be 5.5-6.0. Not exaggerating that number. Dallas didn't bring in a "short yardage" back on 3rd and 1, 4th and 1, or 4 rushes from inside the 5 against a goal line front. Give him 7-8 short yardage carries per game where he gets 10-12 tough yards(and moves the chain or scores), and back that out of a 25 carry 105 yard game...that 4.2 average turns into 5.5 when it's 17 for 93

Most of the top backs were also the teams short yardage guy. Curtis Martin, Jerome Bettis, Dickerson, LT2, Edge, AD, Brown, Payton, Franco, Riggins.

 

[wlk3]

Great discussion in here... I'd like to add the Raiders picked Jamarcus Russell with the #1 overall pick...