What's to be done?

[Stokes1931]

Well, this is a good place to start.

 

[calsnowskier]

WAR??

 

[Stokes1931]

WAR??

It is defensive runs saved/allowed. The Giants' outfield has "saved" -34 runs so far.

 

[calsnowskier]

And

It is defensive runs saved/allowed. The Giants' outfield has "saved" -34 runs so far.

the 12 difference between them and the next worse team is 2-3 times greater than any of the other differences between close teams.

This tells me that we gotta play Gorkys more.

 

[LHG]

This is awful.

 

[SF11704]

It always looks like we try and define why the G-men are playing like crap by using one statistical measure or another. It tends to give us some sense of rationale. I'm really not sure that covers all of our bases though. I personally feel that a lot has to do with the team's composition and the management style that is currently in place. Bochy loves his vets and tends to play them almost exclusively. Living in NY I have seen the rise of Aaron Judge 'up close'. He's all over the NY papers and media outlets. He has been since his arrival. Looking at his minor league stats I really don't see anything that makes him stand out to the extent he is now. He was always 'good' but not at this level. But the Yanks did give him the opportunity and quite a bit of playing time to 'evolve'. I'm not sure we would have done that ... even if we had Judge in our minor league system. We just don't seem to give the kids a real test and in some cases an honest chance. Mac is a prime example. 7 Days of 'availability' will translate into 3 games if we're lucky. I just don't see us successfully developing our minor league talent this way. Sometime during the off season we'll bundle a few of our prospects and go after some 'younger' vet to fill a hole or two. I just don't think that management/ownership really wants to enter into an extended rebuilding phase. I'm guessing they will bundle trade prospects and spend some cash in the FA market trying to close the gaps/hole that we seem to have had for the past year ... Just not sure they have enough of either commodity to solve all of our current issues ...

 

[LHG]

It always looks like we try and define why the G-men are playing like crap by using one statistical measure or another. It tends to give us some sense of rationale. I'm really not sure that covers all of our bases though. I personally feel that a lot has to do with the team's composition and the management style that is currently in place. Bochy loves his vets and tends to play them almost exclusively. Living in NY I have seen the rise of Aaron Judge 'up close'. He's all over the NY papers and media outlets. He has been since his arrival. Looking at his minor league stats I really don't see anything that makes him stand out to the extent he is now. He was always 'good' but not at this level. But the Yanks did give him the opportunity and quite a bit of playing time to 'evolve'. I'm not sure we would have done that ... even if we had Judge in our minor league system. We just don't seem to give the kids a real test and in some cases an honest chance. Mac is a prime example. 7 Days of 'availability' will translate into 3 games if we're lucky. I just don't see us successfully developing our minor league talent this way. Sometime during the off season we'll bundle a few of our prospects and go after some 'younger' vet to fill a hole or two. I just don't think that management/ownership really wants to enter into an extended rebuilding phase. I'm guessing they will bundle trade prospects and spend some cash in the FA market trying to close the gaps/hole that we seem to have had for the past year ... Just not sure they have enough of either commodity to solve all of our current issues ...

I used to say the same thing about the organization, prior to the rise of Posey and Bumgarner. I even wrote a tongue-in-cheek "article" about how the Giants botched Posey's development, from a future perspective. However, they have proven me wrong that they will not give their top prospects a chance. Since then, they've given a lot of playing time to Joe Panik, Matt Duffy, Brandon Crawford and Brandon Belt, just to name a few. Some of them didn't really show that they deserved it either.
However, it seems that the organization goes into panic mode when the team fails to do well (versus not doing well for a while and seeing the need to develop players). What they've been doing with most of the rookies this year (with the exception of Slater, and maybe Hwang) smacks of throw a prospect out for a week or two weeks and make a decision or give scattered playing time and make a judgement.
I do think that the team may have to sign a vet or two to fill a hole (i.e. the bullpen) during the offseason but I can picture them picking up some mediocre middle infielder, even though they've got Calixte, Arroyo and Tomlinson to at least play at the same level of mediocrity at a far less cost with far better potential.

 

[Stokes1931]

I used to say the same thing about the organization, prior to the rise of Posey and Bumgarner. I even wrote a tongue-in-cheek "article" about how the Giants botched Posey's development, from a future perspective. However, they have proven me wrong that they will not give their top prospects a chance. Since then, they've given a lot of playing time to Joe Panik, Matt Duffy, Brandon Crawford and Brandon Belt, just to name a few. Some of them didn't really show that they deserved it either.
However, it seems that the organization goes into panic mode when the team fails to do well (versus not doing well for a while and seeing the need to develop players). What they've been doing with most of the rookies this year (with the exception of Slater, and maybe Hwang) smacks of throw a prospect out for a week or two weeks and make a decision or give scattered playing time and make a judgement.
I do think that the team may have to sign a vet or two to fill a hole (i.e. the bullpen) during the offseason but I can picture them picking up some mediocre middle infielder, even though they've got Calixte, Arroyo and Tomlinson to at least play at the same level of mediocrity at a far less cost with far better potential.

Pitching and defense has gotten us 3 WS rings.

Our starting pitching sucks right now, as does our relief pitching.

Infield defense is above average, with potential gold glovers at 1st, 2nd, and short and catcher.

Our outfield defense has been the worst in baseball. No speed. No coverage. Bad route running. Pence and Span have gotten old fast.

It does seem like baseball is in a long ball phase, and the Giants are not competing there. The situational hitting has been poor for most of the last year. And there is no team speed to speak of, and when there is, Noggin won't allow them to run. The quotes (think RoRo) all seem to think HR's cannot happen at ATT, but opposing teams seem to have no problem hitting them out. It's not a bandbox like Cincy, but it is not the Polo Grounds, either.

And I can see some of the argument about development, both ways. What to do? What to do?

Why not bring up Beede. He's not learning anything more in Sacramento. Move Cainer to the bullpen when Bum comes back. Make Pence a bench player. Bring up Mac and let him play. I am iffy on bringing Shaw up, as it starts the clock, but we have nothing to lose. Bring Rogers up. His twin brother is doing very well for the Twinkies. Glad to see Crick up, hope he sticks.

Man, the ASB really screwed these guys up last season, and it has been screwed up (with flashes of "there's the Giants baseball we love" from time to time.)

I would say, too, that all the injuries and all the guys coming and going has had to mess with the clubhouse chemistry.

 

[calsnowskier]

I used to say the same thing about the organization, prior to the rise of Posey and Bumgarner. I even wrote a tongue-in-cheek "article" about how the Giants botched Posey's development, from a future perspective. However, they have proven me wrong that they will not give their top prospects a chance. Since then, they've given a lot of playing time to Joe Panik, Matt Duffy, Brandon Crawford and Brandon Belt, just to name a few. Some of them didn't really show that they deserved it either.
However, it seems that the organization goes into panic mode when the team fails to do well (versus not doing well for a while and seeing the need to develop players). What they've been doing with most of the rookies this year (with the exception of Slater, and maybe Hwang) smacks of throw a prospect out for a week or two weeks and make a decision or give scattered playing time and make a judgement.
I do think that the team may have to sign a vet or two to fill a hole (i.e. the bullpen) during the offseason but I can picture them picking up some mediocre middle infielder, even though they've got Calixte, Arroyo and Tomlinson to at least play at the same level of mediocrity at a far less cost with far better potential.

I totally forgot that article. Was that here or Disney? I seem to think that was at Disney.

We also put together the forum lineup. IIRC tz was the cleanup hitter, cause he liked to smack everyone around. I think Marcus was the leadoff hitter, cause he would always start shit. NN was the closer cause he would kill so many threads.

We had fun over there...

 

[msgkings322]

It always looks like we try and define why the G-men are playing like crap by using one statistical measure or another. It tends to give us some sense of rationale. I'm really not sure that covers all of our bases though. I personally feel that a lot has to do with the team's composition and the management style that is currently in place. Bochy loves his vets and tends to play them almost exclusively. Living in NY I have seen the rise of Aaron Judge 'up close'. He's all over the NY papers and media outlets. He has been since his arrival. Looking at his minor league stats I really don't see anything that makes him stand out to the extent he is now. He was always 'good' but not at this level. But the Yanks did give him the opportunity and quite a bit of playing time to 'evolve'. I'm not sure we would have done that ... even if we had Judge in our minor league system. We just don't seem to give the kids a real test and in some cases an honest chance. Mac is a prime example. 7 Days of 'availability' will translate into 3 games if we're lucky. I just don't see us successfully developing our minor league talent this way. Sometime during the off season we'll bundle a few of our prospects and go after some 'younger' vet to fill a hole or two. I just don't think that management/ownership really wants to enter into an extended rebuilding phase. I'm guessing they will bundle trade prospects and spend some cash in the FA market trying to close the gaps/hole that we seem to have had for the past year ... Just not sure they have enough of either commodity to solve all of our current issues ...

And it has to be said re Judge: there are ways to turn an ok to good minor leaguer into a monster HR mashing superman. But we're not supposed to talk about that.

 

[LHG]

I totally forgot that article. Was that here or Disney? I seem to think that was at Disney.

We also put together the forum lineup. IIRC tz was the cleanup hitter, cause he liked to smack everyone around. I think Marcus was the leadoff hitter, cause he would always start shit. NN was the closer cause he would kill so many threads.

We had fun over there...

That was Disney. I want to see I wrote it during spring training 2009 and got some flak for it. Glad I was very wrong on how they ended up handling Posey.

Never seen that forum lineup. Did you all do that here or was it posted at Disney?

 

[calsnowskier]

That was Disney. I want to see I wrote it during spring training 2009 and got some flak for it. Glad I was very wrong on how they ended up handling Posey.

Never seen that forum lineup. Did you all do that here or was it posted at Disney?

Disney. Circa '08 or '09.

 

[LHG]

Disney. Circa '08 or '09.

Then I would guess it was either before I joined (I found the forum by accident around October 2008) or when I was just getting used to the forum and wouldn't have paid much attention to the lineup. But was Nolan Nonsense around at that time? I thought he showed up in 2010.

Man, I cannot believe how long ago all that was.

 

[Stokes1931]

Then I would guess it was either before I joined (I found the forum by accident around October 2008) or when I was just getting used to the forum and wouldn't have paid much attention to the lineup. But was Nolan Nonsense around at that time? I thought he showed up in 2010.

Man, I cannot believe how long ago all that was.

Some (most) of us were on the Mouse or SportsHoopla boards before the Giants had any WS rings. Now they have three! How about that?!?

And I got dragged over by Cal. I was initially hesitant because of the NSFW avatars. But then discovered a way to block them.

The Disney board was pretty wild there for a while.

 

[calsnowskier]

Then I would guess it was either before I joined (I found the forum by accident around October 2008) or when I was just getting used to the forum and wouldn't have paid much attention to the lineup. But was Nolan Nonsense around at that time? I thought he showed up in 2010.

Man, I cannot believe how long ago all that was.

NN was around there long before '10. He had other usernames, though. He was actually one of the main reasons, I think, the migration actually took hold. And FYI, he is on this site, but he is banned from this forum. He is Montelbon now.

I think you were around for the lineup. I seem to remember both you and El J were included, and IIRC, you both showed up at Disney at approx the same time.

 

[LHG]

Some (most) of us were on the Mouse or SportsHoopla boards before the Giants had any WS rings. Now they have three! How about that?!?

And I got dragged over by Cal. I was initially hesitant because of the NSFW avatars. But then discovered a way to block them.

The Disney board was pretty wild there for a while.

NN was around there long before '10. He had other usernames, though. He was actually one of the main reasons, I think, the migration actually took hold. And FYI, he is on this site, but he is banned from this forum. He is Montelbon now.

I think you were around for the lineup. I seem to remember both you and El J were included, and IIRC, you both showed up at Disney at approx the same time.

Stokes, those avatars kept me away for a while. But I missed the discussions and the entertaining posts. I checked the forum probably twice a year and came over once I saw the change to the website.

cal, who was NN before he was NN? I probably didn't connect him to anyone else because I give posters the benefit of the doubt and not assume that they were posting under multiple names.
El Jimador, I do miss that poster. Did he ever make it over here? I thought I read somewhere that he joined for a bit. Where'd he go?

 

[calsnowskier]

Stokes, those avatars kept me away for a while. But I missed the discussions and the entertaining posts. I checked the forum probably twice a year and came over once I saw the change to the website.

cal, who was NN before he was NN? I probably didn't connect him to anyone else because I give posters the benefit of the doubt and not assume that they were posting under multiple names.
El Jimador, I do miss that poster. Did he ever make it over here? I thought I read somewhere that he joined for a bit. Where'd he go?

He came over for a while. He disappeared, though. No idea why he didn't stick. He was a decent poster, but he was kinda like tz on steroids, IIRC...

 

[Pattersonca65]

Pitching and defense has gotten us 3 WS rings.

Our starting pitching sucks right now, as does our relief pitching.

Infield defense is above average, with potential gold glovers at 1st, 2nd, and short and catcher.

Our outfield defense has been the worst in baseball. No speed. No coverage. Bad route running. Pence and Span have gotten old fast.

It does seem like baseball is in a long ball phase, and the Giants are not competing there. The situational hitting has been poor for most of the last year. And there is no team speed to speak of, and when there is, Noggin won't allow them to run. The quotes (think RoRo) all seem to think HR's cannot happen at ATT, but opposing teams seem to have no problem hitting them out. It's not a bandbox like Cincy, but it is not the Polo Grounds, either.

And I can see some of the argument about development, both ways. What to do? What to do?

Why not bring up Beede. He's not learning anything more in Sacramento. Move Cainer to the bullpen when Bum comes back. Make Pence a bench player. Bring up Mac and let him play. I am iffy on bringing Shaw up, as it starts the clock, but we have nothing to lose. Bring Rogers up. His twin brother is doing very well for the Twinkies. Glad to see Crick up, hope he sticks.

Man, the ASB really screwed these guys up last season, and it has been screwed up (with flashes of "there's the Giants baseball we love" from time to time.)

I would say, too, that all the injuries and all the guys coming and going has had to mess with the clubhouse chemistry.

Seems like a good time to let some of the prospects play.

 

[LHG]

He came over for a while. He disappeared, though. No idea why he didn't stick. He was a decent poster, but he was kinda like tz on steroids, IIRC...

My memory must be fading because I didn't find him as brash as tzill.

 

[calsnowskier]

My memory must be fading because I didn't find him as brash as tzill.

Maybe I am confusing him with someone else.