What did the 82, 87, & 91 Redskins have in common?

[kbso83432]

Love the passion on this board! It's getting serious. Can't wait till Thursday!

 

[Sharkinva]

In todays NFL if a guy isnt a starter by year 3, in most cases you have moved on. So yes you will have to draft guys a bith sooner to get that level of ability. Remember the average age of the HOGS was

Wrong. Every item has an objective / extrinsic value. The issue of need is what the item is worth to you. Note the prepositional phrases that I've bolded above. By phrasing it in terms of "you," you acknowledge the subjective nature of an item's worth. If there's something you truly don't need, you'll definitely believe it has not value to you, but it still has value to the market at large.

Leonard Williams is a perfect example. The fact that he may not be worth anything to McCloughan doesn't change the fact he's the top ranked college player on a big board.

This does change his value to the franchise however. Look at it like this, if you walked into a store and every one said this brand of soap is the best brand on the market. But what you really needed was toothpaste. Now forget the fact that the soap is normally $10 a bar, its on sale for $6 AND you have a $1.50 off coupon to boot. You didnt need it, and dont really want it despite every one agreeing it is the greatest soap ever created.... how much value does it have to you??

Value is a byproduct of an items worth to you minus its actual COST to you. If it COST less than you would normally be willing to pay, then it has a higher value to you provided you actually have a need for the item to begin with. But if you have no need for it, no matter how much others agree its "Value", it holds no such value to you and there for is actually worthless to you. Now I agree the pick in and of itself my have a value associated with it, but that is based on what we can do with it and is actually based on HOW we use it. But it has no set value other than it can be traded for A player, or multiple lower picks. But even then its actual Worth will only be determined by either the player we use it for, or the picks we get in return.

 

[kbso83432]

We've been making half ass attempts to fix the line for years. (Moses, Long, Rib, shuffling Lich) I just want us to seriously make an honest effort. We can't judge late picks on the Bobby Bethard scale. Maybe Scot is the second coming of Bobby.

 

[redskinsfan]

This does change his value to the franchise however.

You keep missing the point. Look at the bolded phrase above. What you've described is worth, a subjective concept. Value, on the other hand, is never judged intrinsically. Williams is probably #1 on most big boards. That's his value. However, his worth, i.e,. what he means to a franchise, will depend on what franchise you're talking about.

 

[Sharkinva]

You keep missing the point. Look at the bolded phrase above. What you've described is worth, a subjective concept. Value, on the other hand, is never judged intrinsically. Williams is probably #1 on most big boards. That's his value. However, his worth, i.e,. what he means to a franchise, will depend on what franchise you're talking about.

Value | Definition of value by Merriam-Webster

: the amount of money that something is worth : the price or cost of something

: something that can be bought for a low or fair price

: usefulness or importance

Worth | Definition of worth by Merriam-Webster

: an amount of something that has a specified value, that lasts for a specified length of time, etc.

: the amount of money that something is worth

: usefulness or importance

Since we are defining words, Value and Worth... Both according to the word smiths are determined by somethings usefulness or importance. This is totally subjective to the individual, or in this case, the franchise in question.

Winston would have LESS value to the Colts than to the Bucs. Williams may have more worth to a team like the Raiders than he does to us. And since a players value or worth is totally dependent on WHICH franchise we are talking about, thus there is no market value as such because a players importance can have 32 different levels at this point.

 

[redskinsfan]

Value | Definition of value by Merriam-Webster

: the amount of money that something is worth : the price or cost of something

: something that can be bought for a low or fair price

: usefulness or importance

Worth | Definition of worth by Merriam-Webster

: an amount of something that has a specified value, that lasts for a specified length of time, etc.

: the amount of money that something is worth

: usefulness or importance

Since we are defining words, Value and Worth... Both according to the word smiths are determined by somethings usefulness or importance. This is totally subjective to the individual, or in this case, the franchise in question.

Winston would have LESS value to the Colts than to the Bucs. Williams may have more worth to a team like the Raiders than he does to us. And since a players value or worth is totally dependent on WHICH franchise we are talking about, thus there is no market value as such because a players importance can have 32 different levels at this point.

No. I'm using value and worth in the context of trading and commodities. In that context, something will always have an objective value. What that something is worth will vary with different people and circumstances, such as need. When a person decides to act on obtaining that something, you get a price.

 

[reptec101]

I don't have time to look at the top 5 players drafted over the last 20+ years but I can bet that odds favor the players are not gonna bust. The only decade we have had great teams we had the best offensive line in the league. Those lines made 3 non hall of fame QB's look like Montana. Rypien was sacked 7 times his SB year. Since our dominant lines have disappeared every QB we have had has led the league in sacks and bad all around bad play. We have lived in the basement. I believe we went 15 years not addressing the line. Glamour picks were the flavor. It got us far, eh. It begins with a great line. Dallas has built a great line and their mediocre RB set records for em. Even Tony 'piece me together' Romo had his best year. O-lines win Championships. I won't be disap if we draft Sherff at all. My only disap would be if we go QB, WR, CB in that order with our 5th pick. And yes, I know we need all three.

 

[reptec101]

Value only has meaning if it benefits you. Our 5th pick becomes meaningless if we screw it up.

 

[skinsdad62]

i am still trying to figure out by the above definitions what is the freaking difference ?. it seems to me we have a bunch of double talk going on

the common denominator appears to be cost importance and usefullness yet we keep playing the "context " card which has nothing to do with it

my next point is we havent really spent high picks on the o/line (williams being the exception ) while the cowboys have 3 1st rounders in there

now my question is people like college LT fisher over college LT scherf but scherf has more athletism on tape some call fischer the next jon jansen. i can live with that but some cant live with a more athletic jon jansen ?

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

I don't have time to look at the top 5 players drafted over the last 20+ years but I can bet that odds favor the players are not gonna bust. The only decade we have had great teams we had the best offensive line in the league. Those lines made 3 non hall of fame QB's look like Montana. Rypien was sacked 7 times his SB year. Since our dominant lines have disappeared every QB we have had has led the league in sacks and bad all around bad play. We have lived in the basement. I believe we went 15 years not addressing the line. Glamour picks were the flavor. It got us far, eh. It begins with a great line. Dallas has built a great line and their mediocre RB set records for em. Even Tony 'piece me together' Romo had his best year. O-lines win Championships. I won't be disap if we draft Sherff at all. My only disap would be if we go QB, WR, CB in that order with our 5th pick. And yes, I know we need all three.

Yes but as I pointed out in my last post offensive lines for the most part do not win championships, great QBs and dominating defenses win championships. As I said Redskins fans look at our history and are obsessed with offensive line play. Again I'm not claiming the OL is unimportant, just that Redskins fans lose perspective in their desire to recreate the past.

Shark and others have been on the soapbox on this topic, obviously. He actually asked "how many pass rushers do you need?". Pretty sure nobody was asking this the day after the Giants won the Super Bowl, twice, over far superior New England teams. They didn't win them with their offensive line, they won them by sending pass rushers from all angles after Tom Brady all afternoon. Teams like the Ravens, Steelers, Seahawks and dozens of other teams won titles with defense more so than their OL. In fact the number of teams who won championships with their offensive lines playing the key role appear to be limited to the Redskins.

So how many pass rushers do we need? Well last time I checked we had exactly one and nobody is putting Ryan Kerrigan in the top tier of pass rushers in the NFL.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

We've been making half ass attempts to fix the line for years. (Moses, Long, Rib, shuffling Lich) I just want us to seriously make an honest effort. We can't judge late picks on the Bobby Bethard scale. Maybe Scot is the second coming of Bobby.

Sure you can because the concept of building a good O-line applies to more than just the Redskins. We better hope that SM is equal to or better than Beathard (his track record indicates that he is & you are omitting the fact that SM already successfully built other teams - this isn't his first major rebuilding project).

My pt is yes - get a stud O-lineman either this year or next early in the draft, but that is not the entire solution. You also need role players & the trick is scouting, wise selections & good coaching. Pretty safe to assume that this team did almost none of that in the recent past except for the selection of Williams which was a no-brainer.

They now appear to have a top notch FO & a very good O-line coach. Whether or not they select an O-lineman early they should be vastly improved on the line if not right away then by next season. As others have also indicated O-line is not the end-all/be-all. You would have to consider the Seahawks the most successful team of the past two seasons & their O-line is generally considered to be one of the worst in the NFL. Again - not stating that the O-line is not important, but there are other areas to consider & I just feel that the Redskins FO is most definitely addressing the O-line.

I think people are still stuck on viewing this team as making the same decisions as in the past 5-10 years, and that is understandable given the fact that Snyder owns the team. However - I truly believe that everyone is going to be pleasantly surprised in the next 2-3 years. HTTR

 

[j_y19]

Sure you can because the concept of building a good O-line applies to more than just the Redskins. We better hope that SM is equal to or better than Beathard (his track record indicates that he is & you are omitting the fact that SM already successfully built other teams - this isn't his first major rebuilding project).

My pt is yes - get a stud O-lineman either this year or next early in the draft, but that is not the entire solution. You also need role players & the trick is scouting, wise selections & good coaching. Pretty safe to assume that this team did almost none of that in the recent past except for the selection of Williams which was a no-brainer.

They now appear to have a top notch FO & a very good O-line coach. Whether or not they select an O-lineman early they should be vastly improved on the line if not right away then by next season. As others have also indicated O-line is not the end-all/be-all. You would have to consider the Seahawks the most successful team of the past two seasons & their O-line is generally considered to be one of the worst in the NFL. Again - not stating that the O-line is not important, but there are other areas to consider & I just feel that the Redskins FO is most definitely addressing the O-line.

I think people are still stuck on viewing this team as making the same decisions as in the past 5-10 years, and that is understandable given the fact that Snyder owns the team. However - I truly believe that everyone is going to be pleasantly surprised in the next 2-3 years. HTTR

And there is the challenge for most. It will take 2-3 years to see significant progress from SMs decisions. No one player chosen with the 5th pick this year is, alone, going to directionally change this franchise. We first need a structural change in philosophy. Hopefully that is occurring with SM hiring. Next, we need multiple upgrades of talent. They don't all have to be elite, in fact, I'd trade one elite player for a couple of very good players right now. Hence I'm a proponent of the trade back. Finally, we need to stick with a plan. We can't be changing coaches and schemes every other year. Give the talent we acquire a chance to learn and stabilize in a system.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

i am still trying to figure out by the above definitions what is the freaking difference ?. it seems to me we have a bunch of double talk going on

the common denominator appears to be cost importance and usefullness yet we keep playing the "context " card which has nothing to do with it

my next point is we havent really spent high picks on the o/line (williams being the exception ) while the cowboys have 3 1st rounders in there

now my question is people like college LT fisher over college LT scherf but scherf has more athletism on tape some call fischer the next jon jansen. i can live with that but some cant live with a more athletic jon jansen ?

List of Washington Redskins first-round draft picks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for your pt in your third paragraph - this is just a symptom of the fact that overall the Redskins have done a very poor job of drafting in the last 20 years. Look at their first round picks since 2003. Five years where the picks were traded, three guys that didn't really make it big with Skins, one unfortunate death & one good player who was always fighting injuries & ultimately released.

That leaves two very good players - Kerrigan & Williams - and one - RG3 - who had one great year & two bad ones & is currently a longshot at having a solid future with the Redskins. So let's call it 2.5 good picks out of 11 (leaving out the Taylor pick). That is a terrible track record. If the Skins made say 4 or 5 other very solid picks during that time (that say were not O-lineman) this team would likely be much, much better.

When you look at the team in this context I am shocked that most fans here are not extremely excited in having SM running the show since this is an area where the Redskins have been perhaps the worst team in the league over the past 15-20 years. No worries my friend - they will get the O-line & the rest of this team fixed in relatively short order (doesn't mean it will all happen by this season).

 

[SoCalWizFan]

And there is the challenge for most. It will take 2-3 years to see significant progress from SMs decisions. No one player chosen with the 5th pick this year is, alone, going to directionally change this franchise. We first need a structural change in philosophy. Hopefully that is occurring with SM hiring. Next, we need multiple upgrades of talent. They don't all have to be elite, in fact, I'd trade one elite player for a couple of very good players right now. Hence I'm a proponent of the trade back. Finally, we need to stick with a plan. We can't be changing coaches and schemes every other year. Give the talent we acquire a chance to learn and stabilize in a system.

Amen to that - 100% agree & I have been preaching this all along. This is difficult for some to comprehend since over the past 15-20 years we have been accustomed to a team that almost always tries to fix everything at once. We should all realize by now that this approach simply doesn't work (yet we still have some in forums like this that advocate this approach by recommending ill advised moves like signing Suh).

 

[kbso83432]

My point on Bethard was that we can't count on getting guys like Jacoby and the like as late as we did. Those are once in a lifetime finds, by a once in a lifetime GM. My overall point is if people want an OLB, they just need to say that. Don't try to sell me that Scherff is any more of a reach than these undersized dope smoking edge rushers. You don't have to downgrade one thing to upgrade your own preference.

Yes, we won't fix everything in one year, but I think we made an honest effort to help the defense in free agency. Is it wrong that I don't want to sit through Chester and Compton simulating a metro turnstile again for the 3rd year in a row? If we are all in on RG3, I think we have to give him or someone else a chance to view the field.

Remember Colt got hurt behind that line as well. Hoping we can pull a rabbit out of a hat by grabbing a 10 year starter in the 4th or 5th round is kinda risky. Maybe Scot will do just that, and I will stand corrected.

That being said, I must admit I am being very hypocritical, because getting a talent like White or Cooper wouldn't hurt my feeling either.

Trading down and getting Scherff and maybe Ray and a Guard at the top of the second would be ideal for me.

 

[Caliskinsfan]

There has been a trend for Olineman to get picked in the first round the last few years. Not saying that trend is at the 5 spot...yet, but the trend has been creeping higher and higher.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

List of Washington Redskins first-round draft picks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for your pt in your third paragraph - this is just a symptom of the fact that overall the Redskins have done a very poor job of drafting in the last 20 years. Look at their first round picks since 2003. Five years where the picks were traded, three guys that didn't really make it big with Skins, one unfortunate death & one good player who was always fighting injuries & ultimately released.

That leaves two very good players - Kerrigan & Williams - and one - RG3 - who had one great year & two bad ones & is currently a longshot at having a solid future with the Redskins. So let's call it 2.5 good picks out of 11 (leaving out the Taylor pick). That is a terrible track record. If the Skins made say 4 or 5 other very solid picks during that time (that say were not O-lineman) this team would likely be much, much better.

When you look at the team in this context I am shocked that most fans here are not extremely excited in having SM running the show since this is an area where the Redskins have been perhaps the worst team in the league over the past 15-20 years. No worries my friend - they will get the O-line & the rest of this team fixed in relatively short order (doesn't mean it will all happen by this season).

Yeah our draft history is pathetic and this is no secret. But I don't really agree about the lukewarm feelings on GMSM. As I recall most everyone was incredibly excited at this news. Now some like Shark are taking a wait and see approach and after so many letdowns I can hardly blame him. Still things are different now, it will just take forever to undo the bad.

 

[SoCalWizFan]

There has been a trend for Olineman to get picked in the first round the last few years. Not saying that trend is at the 5 spot...yet, but the trend has been creeping higher and higher.

Power Ranking the NFL's Top 50 Active Offensive Linemen | Bleacher Report

Just because it is a trend doesn't mean that all or even most of the quality lineman are from the 1st or 2nd round. See the link above. Granted - this is a few years old (2012) but is probably relatively consistent with the current time in terms of where players were selected. There are several on this list that were selected high. However - there are still lots of players (including in the top 10) that were selected in later rounds or even undrafted.

Again - I would be thrilled to see the Skins draft an O-lineman in the 1st round either this year or next year. However - this idea that all/most of your O-lineman need to come in rounds 1-3 is insane. I truly believe that some future O-line stars or just major contributors are lurking out there in the later rounds or can be had as undrafted FAs. Nobody is saying that the team is searching for the next Jacoby - just that quality lineman can come from a variety of sources.

 

[Lonewate44]

Yes but as I pointed out in my last post offensive lines for the most part do not win championships, great QBs and dominating defenses win championships. As I said Redskins fans look at our history and are obsessed with offensive line play. Again I'm not claiming the OL is unimportant, just that Redskins fans lose perspective in their desire to recreate the past.

Shark and others have been on the soapbox on this topic, obviously. He actually asked "how many pass rushers do you need?". Pretty sure nobody was asking this the day after the Giants won the Super Bowl, twice, over far superior New England teams. They didn't win them with their offensive line, they won them by sending pass rushers from all angles after Tom Brady all afternoon. Teams like the Ravens, Steelers, Seahawks and dozens of other teams won titles with defense more so than their OL. In fact the number of teams who won championships with their offensive lines playing the key role appear to be limited to the Redskins.

So how many pass rushers do we need? Well last time I checked we had exactly one and nobody is putting Ryan Kerrigan in the top tier of pass rushers in the NFL.

While I dont disagree about great QBs and dominating defenses win championships.....however Darrell......when you have less then a great QB and less then a Dominating Defense......A solid Oline will HELP a developing QB become better with more time to make his reads and throw the ball...to BECOME a franchise qb.....I for 1 and sick and tired of seeing our QB under duress in less then 2 seconds....Brady, Manning, Brees, would all struggle with the inadequate Oline we have been putting out there.....would you not agree????

 

[SoCalWizFan]

Yeah our draft history is pathetic and this is no secret. But I don't really agree about the lukewarm feelings on GMSM. As I recall most everyone was incredibly excited at this news. Now some like Shark are taking a wait and see approach and after so many letdowns I can hardly blame him. Still things are different now, it will just take forever to undo the bad.

Nope - won't take forever to undo the bad. This is the NFL where things change quickly. I am not saying this will happen, but it is not beyond the realm of possibility that the Redskins are major contenders in say 2017 if not earlier. That is not "forever".