Was the Defense Fools Gold...or...

[ATL96Steeler]

Obviously the Steelers' season ended much quicker than we anticipated. Sometimes as fans we are so close to the action that we can't see the forest for the trees so to speak.

Just doing a little soul searching about this team, drilling down into the positions.

Did we over shoot this thing? The schedule was fairly weak so they were not as good as their record nor were they a true top 10 DEF.

The playoff teams they played....MIN, JAX x 2, NE, and they were 1-3 in those games. Is that telling?

DEF in those key games.

• MIN...played well, mostly controlled this game. note MIN was w/o their star rookie RB
• JAX...played okay really until the end of the game...we forget, this was a 1 possession game in the 3Q then btb pick 6s
• NE...played well for the majority of the game, the key 4Q drive they couldn't defend Gronk
• JAX...played worse against the run than the 1st game, couldn't get off the field on 3rd down once they were able to create some third downs.

Throw in the KC game and the always tough Ravens games...the DEF had a mixed bag but looked to be a stronger DEF at the end of the year.

After 20 days of preparation...What happened last week?

• The Jags OL won the 1 on 1 battles most of the day vs probably the strongest part of the DEF.
  
• Scheme wise they played man at times vs a mobile QB and got burnt several times
• Obviously Shazier being out was a huge factor.
• More assignment issues that plagued the DEF this yr at times.
• As Face pointed out, sack leader, yet zero sacks in their last game

Is this team a player or two away on DEF? Or are they just fools gold?

I've tried to take my homer glasses off and look at the DEF objectively.

Coaching...Bouchette is making claims Tomlin was running the DEF this yr. No doubt Tomlin has put his stamp on the DEF since LeBeau was not renewed. But game day calls...I'm not comfortable saying he's doing that. Regardless...way too many missed assignments this yr resulting in back breaking 3rd down plays being successful.

2nd yr starters, Burns and Davis both struggled at times. Understandable, but yr 3 needs to be a different story.

I don't think Tomlin should bring back the entire DEF staff. At this point I'm not confident that Porter or Lake are contributing much.

You've can't take a talent like Shazier off the field and not feel it. The last couple of drafts I think they have ignored adding depth with a similar skill.

DL...I'm still bullish on the trio of Tuitt, Hargrave, and Heyward...they need another NT for depth/rotation. McCullers has been a waste. Need to retain or recapture something with Alualu and LT Walton

OLB...TJ is solid, he tailed off at the end of the season somewhat (5 sacks thru 12 games finished with 7) hopefully takes another step. Dupree has started 3 seasons. I feel like we're seeing his best football. He's a player, but not a playmaker. They need a stud.

ILB...Shazier and VWil is pretty good...VWill and Dirty Red, Foyt, Spence....maybe avg at best....bodies, no playmakers

CB...Haden is proven, needs to stay healthy. Hilton was a godsend at nickel. Burns, imo regressed. Gay didn't do anything to earn another slot. Burns needs to pick his game in '18 and I think Sutton will improve the dime play...2 solid guys, 2 guys need to produce.

S...Davis made some plays, but gave up maybe just as many. Every OC wants to attack Mitchell. Davis needs to step up his game in yr 3 and they need to move on from Mitchell

So...recapping attempt at an objective view of the Steeler DEF.

DL...1 legit playmaker in Heyward, and very solid cast

LB level...no proven playmakers

Backend...Haden and some hopefuls.

I think if we're being honest, there are not many studs on this DEF. Facing a sterner schedule maybe they win 10 games this past season.

IMO for this DEF to be legit next year in my mind after watching that effort....TJ needs to up his game and sustain it all season, Burns, Davis both need big leaps in performance. Must upgrade FS, and find a starting caliber player opposite Vince.

Maybe this DEF is further away than we think.

Your thoughts?

 

[Ojb81]

Agreed, but I would even say that a guy like Vince, is just a guy.. He's really nothing special, or a difference-maker. We see him make a hard hit every game or two, and think "wow, that was somethin'!" but to me, he's slow, stiff in the hips, has average recognition skills, and certainly someone who can be upgraded as well

 

[FaCe-LeE-uS]

IMO we definitely overshot this defense. It was easy to do when you account for the insane amount of athleticism in that unit. Shazier, Dupree, Watt, Davis, Burns, etc etc. Just think about the amount of ground those freakish athletes could cover. On paper this unit could have played any scheme during any game. But it didn't materialize. Butler's defensive schemes don't appear to be the problem IMO. Unless Douchette (yes I spelled it correctly) is right about Tomlin having a heavy hand in playcalling. Butler got this unit back into the top 10 (top 5 in secondary), and finished 1st in sacks with this cast of overachievers. Hell he got 8 sacks out of Vince Williams, of whom we all can agree is "just a guy" and not much to him.

More on V-Will/LBers... I love Vince's character, he's as tenacious as they come, but his ceiling is lower than I thought. Evidence from his spotty play and inconsistencies from game to game. They need a playmaker like Shazier to compliment him, but I still think they can use an upgrade. They need to find a consistent player like Lawrence Timmons was. I'd love for Vince to be that guy but I doubt he will be. There is a clear void at this level. We have a wildcard in Keion Adams, but the entire group needs more talent. Dupree may be ok or solid enough, but I'm not a fan of his in run support.

D-line... With the cast & talent in this group I'm not sure how this unit wasn't top 3 in rushing defense. Heyward was clearly the stud, but we need more from the supporting cast. Alualu was a huge contributor with Tuitt ailing most of the season. I really hope those arm issues don't plague Tuitt. Not that he's remotely comparable, but arm issues were what took Steelers legend Joe Greene out of the game earlier than he wanted. They need Walton to step up this year or find another interior guy. Not sure how Dan survived the 2017 calendar year, but he shouldn't make it into 2018. He's a UFA this offseason. I'm sure he'll get scooped up because a man that size should be able to contribute in some fashion on the football field.

Secondary... ATL hit the nails on the head. Need more from Burns & Davis as I think they are the catalyst to how well this secondary plays. I don't need to say anything more on Mitchell. Everyone here should know how I feel about him lol. One thing I found interesting about Douchette's story was that Sutton was being considered by scouts as a FS. Never heard that before until now. Would prefer to draft a true FS, but given Sutton's cerebral acknowledgements this past offseason it interests me. Like I've said before, I think the team needs to go after a Earl Thomas type FS. A true FS with ball skills & awareness. We don't need another LB/SS type playing the last line of defense. Curious to see if Brian Allen can make waves this offseason and put pressure on Sutton & Burns. Doubtful, but a man of that size in the secondary intrigues me.

 

[SJ20]

There is an article out there by Ed Bouchette basically saying that late in the season, Tomlin took over defensive play calling from Butler. You almost cant even write this stuff. It just gets worse and worse. Baseball season needs to get here quickly.


And to answer your question ATL, this defense is NOT as good as we think. However, with the offense we have, the D was more than capable of holding on and the team was capable of winning the Super Bowl. I expect there to be some improvements to the D and this team might even be the favorite going into next season.

 

[FaCe-LeE-uS]

After almost a decade of rebuilding I think its easy to say this defense is nothing more, nor will ever be more than fool's gold. All because of its coaches.

Just look at the investments they have made...

DL -
Heyward - 1st Rd Pick
Tuitt - 2nd Rd Pick
Hargrave - 3rd Rd Pick

LB -
Dupree - 1st Rd Pick
Watt - 1st Rd Pick
Williams - 6th Rd Pick
Bostic - FA (former 2nd Rd pick)

DB -
Burns - 1st Rd Pick
Haden - FA (former 1st Rd pick)
Davis - 2nd Rd Pick
Burnett/Edmunds - FA (3rd Rd pick) & 1st Rd pick - Avg 2nd Rd pick

That's your 11-man base defense. "Average draft pick" for all 11 positions is a 2nd Rd pick. That sort of capital investment should produce better results but the product on the field is unacceptable. If that doesn't point to coaching then I don't know what else would.

The coaching staff has in large part entrusted themselves to groom raw talent to mold them to their schemes. This simply hasn't worked out the way they envisioned. The coaching staff has undergone some turnover with new DB & D-line coaches, and yet we have the same results. The schemes simply don't work. And not only that, I am fairly certain that there really is no scheme or direction on how they want to play. The coaches don't trust the players, and the players don't trust their coaches. That is a very difficult hill to climb for any coach, let alone a new position coach.

The blame can be passed around to all, as I think the players are just as responsible, but it has to start with the coaching. The formula has been reused for almost a decade with the same unacceptable results. The coaches are not putting the players in the position to succeed, and they don't have the game-changing talent to overcome that. On top of that they are uncoordinated & ill-prepared. We are 4 weeks in and the defensive personnel are typically unset before the snap (multiple players asking for playcalls or players not sure where they are supposed to lineup), and they are still getting "12-man on the field" penalties. The fact that can't seem to appear prepared on any given snap is a HUGE red flag.

 

[Ewa PGH Fan]

I agree that the coaching and schemes suck. I know you can get burnt on blitzes BUT NFL QBs will pick a D apart if there is no pressure. The TB game is a good example. They got pressure the first half and forced 3 INTs. No pressure in the 2nd half and they got picked apart. Also, the zone cover 2 gets picked apart when you don't have an ILB fast enough to cover the whole middle of the field.

 

[Superbelt]

Tombert became the new Al Davis. Even resorting to picking up Davis's former picks in FA. It's like Tomlin got possessed by that crotchety old fucker's ghost.

Al Davis put a premium on exceptional athletes, (like Bey and Mitchell) and passed over accomplished football players to do so. We did the same thing with Dupree, Burns and now Edmunds who is seeing the field when he has no goddamned idea what he's doing.

That's what Tombert is doing now. That's what needs to fucking stop. Watt was an exception to that because he fit both criteria.

Draft football players. Not track stars, and guys who can jump out of pools.

 

[Ewa PGH Fan]

Tombert became the new Al Davis. Even resorting to picking up Davis's former picks in FA. It's like Tomlin got possessed by that crotchety old fucker's ghost.

Al Davis put a premium on exceptional athletes, (like Bey and Mitchell) and passed over accomplished football players to do so. We did the same thing with Dupree, Burns and now Edmunds who is seeing the field when he has no goddamned idea what he's doing.

That's what Tombert is doing now. That's what needs to fucking stop. Watt was an exception to that because he fit both criteria.

Draft football players. Not track stars, and guys who can jump out of pools.

While I somewhat agree I also somewhat disagree. Speed kills. You need speed on D to keep up with today's offenses. The Steelers have been known since the late 60's and into the 70's for drafting players that don't fit the mold. See Lambert, Jack. A MLB capable of playing in Noll's new D schemes and adept at stuffing the run, blitzing the QB and dropping intro coverage. You left off the biggest Tomlin era exception to your point, Shazier. This D sorely misses him.

Where I agree somewhat is passing over other players in the draft. Everyone thought/thinks Burns and Edmunds were defiantly reaches in the 1st round. There were higher rated players at the same or other positions still on the board that could've been selected instead. Neither Burns nor Edmunds had 1st round grades. I'm not sure about Burns but Edmunds would've been there at their draft spot in the 2nd or even the 3rd round. Edmunds is only starting right now due to the injury to Burnett. They're whole plan at safety (FA and draft) this year has been fubar. Being forced to start a clearly not ready rookie is not a good plan IMO.

 

[Superbelt]

While I somewhat agree I also somewhat disagree. Speed kills. You need speed on D to keep up with today's offenses. The Steelers have been known since the late 60's and into the 70's for drafting players that don't fit the mold. See Lambert, Jack. A MLB capable of playing in Noll's new D schemes and adept at stuffing the run, blitzing the QB and dropping intro coverage. You left off the biggest Tomlin era exception to your point, Shazier. This D sorely misses him.

Where I agree somewhat is passing over other players in the draft. Everyone thought/thinks Burns and Edmunds were defiantly reaches in the 1st round. There were higher rated players at the same or other positions still on the board that could've been selected instead. Neither Burns nor Edmunds had 1st round grades. I'm not sure about Burns but Edmunds would've been there at their draft spot in the 2nd or even the 3rd round. Edmunds is only starting right now due to the injury to Burnett. They're whole plan at safety (FA and draft) this year has been fubar. Being forced to start a clearly not ready rookie is not a good plan IMO.

That's another one, yeah. Shazier. Just like Watt, he fit both descriptions.

You would preferably want BOTH qualities. But if you pick one, you pick the productive football player with a high-football IQ. That's your first consideration. Athleticism comes behind that.

But Tombert has been picking athletes first, and that is just the wrong priority. Part of that is due to the good mix player already being gone by the time the Steelers are picking. They've always been just good enough that the right players are already gone. But they too often settle for that blow away athlete first.

That's wrong.

Ryan Clark wasn't the fastest dude, but at least he didn't let WR's get behind him.

 

[Ewa PGH Fan]

That's another one, yeah. Shazier. Just like Watt, he fit both descriptions.

You would preferably want BOTH qualities. But if you pick one, you pick the productive football player with a high-football IQ. That's your first consideration. Athleticism comes behind that.

But Tombert has been picking athletes first, and that is just the wrong priority. Part of that is due to the good mix player already being gone by the time the Steelers are picking. They've always been just good enough that the right players are already gone. But they too often settle for that blow away athlete first.

That's wrong.

Ryan Clark wasn't the fastest dude, but at least he didn't let WR's get behind him.

That was the MO of the Noll and Cower eras. Pick guys who make plays whether they fit the ideal for a position or not. I think we're saying the same thing different ways. They're over rating players based upon their emphasis on great athleticism. I think that works on offense but not D and their D shows that.

 

[Superbelt]

That was the MO of the Noll and Cower eras. Pick guys who make plays whether they fit the ideal for a position or not. I think we're saying the same thing different ways. They're over rating players based upon their emphasis on great athleticism. I think that works on offense but not D and their D shows that.

Yeah. This. I agree with you.

At least don't go athlete first in the first two or three rounds. Get a player. Take lower flyers on the athlete.

They have done incredibly well on Offense the last 5+ years. But defensively, they've picked way too many guys based on foot speed, strength and explosion that just don't have it on the field.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

While I somewhat agree I also somewhat disagree. Speed kills. You need speed on D to keep up with today's offenses. The Steelers have been known since the late 60's and into the 70's for drafting players that don't fit the mold. See Lambert, Jack. A MLB capable of playing in Noll's new D schemes and adept at stuffing the run, blitzing the QB and dropping intro coverage. You left off the biggest Tomlin era exception to your point, Shazier. This D sorely misses him.

Where I agree somewhat is passing over other players in the draft. Everyone thought/thinks Burns and Edmunds were defiantly reaches in the 1st round. There were higher rated players at the same or other positions still on the board that could've been selected instead. Neither Burns nor Edmunds had 1st round grades. I'm not sure about Burns but Edmunds would've been there at their draft spot in the 2nd or even the 3rd round. Edmunds is only starting right now due to the injury to Burnett. They're whole plan at safety (FA and draft) this year has been fubar. Being forced to start a clearly not ready rookie is not a good plan IMO.

Good post.

I was having a football conversation with my brother-n-law (long time KC fan) last night, and topic turned to PIT and he gave me his thoughts.

He said the Steelers are better than the stats show on DEF if everybody was being used to their best skills. Seeing how they schemed TJ Watt on a slot WR on b-t-b plays in the KC game, he's not sure if that's the case with this DEF. They have a top edge rusher in Justin Houston, he's almost never in coverage...he basically plays like 43 DE.

Secondly, he thinks as good as Bell is they should have dropped the whole deal last yr, traded Bell for picks, and spent the money on a big FA CB to go with Haden, or edge rusher to go with Watt, or FA S to replace Mitchell. Steelers look silly offering $15 mil per for a RB and they're giving up nearly 30 pts a game.

That was before the game last night, but there's a lot of truth there. Especially about putting a legit playmaker on DEF instead spending that money on Bell.

2016 draft...Burns...I was really okay with this pick even though I knew he was raw, but had the size/speed you want. In his 3yr in their system you would think he would've evolved into a consistent starter by now. Looking back at the draft...in hindsight, almost any pick they would've taken would've come with some raised eyebrows. Jaylon Smith was still on the board, but both he and Miles Jack were major health reclamation projects.

Chris Jones was a nice pick, but they had Heyward and & Tuitt already. Hunter Henry, TE...iirc hurt now, but a very good rookie yr. Deion Jones, OLB...he would've projected inside in this scheme, but this player went 52nd overall. Trade down might've been the move that year, but we know how that is viewed.

2018 draft...Edmunds S, now this draft I really wanted Darrius Leonard, LB SC St. in this spot. He probably isn't going to be a star, but this guy could play inside and outside LB showing pretty good production already with 4 sacks.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

That's another one, yeah. Shazier. Just like Watt, he fit both descriptions.

You would preferably want BOTH qualities. But if you pick one, you pick the productive football player with a high-football IQ. That's your first consideration. Athleticism comes behind that.

But Tombert has been picking athletes first, and that is just the wrong priority. Part of that is due to the good mix player already being gone by the time the Steelers are picking. They've always been just good enough that the right players are already gone. But they too often settle for that blow away athlete first.

That's wrong.

Ryan Clark wasn't the fastest dude, but at least he didn't let WR's get behind him.

No question...the metrics changed completely after the Jarvis Jones failure....a good college player, but not athletic enough to do it at the next level.

On the back end of the DEF, you need speed, but you need playmakers and you don't see too many of those guys that are at the bottom of the 1st round. I don't rate 40 time with edge rushers that highly, a good example of this.

Carl Lawson, LB, AUB...4/116th to CIN. 6-2...260ish...guy could get the QB at AUB. Decent combine numbers but he's not that great in space so the 34 teams kinda knocked him down thinking maybe he's not athletic enough. CIN got him in their 43 and he already had 9.5 sacks in less than 20 games.

 

[SJ20]

This is a very good thread. Cant believe I thought they would improve the D in the offseason. Shocking.

 

[Ewa PGH Fan]

This is a very good thread. Cant believe I thought they would improve the D in the offseason. Shocking.

We all thought they would try and find playmakers to replace Shazier and Mitchell but ATL's BiL is right. Too much $$$ tied up in Bell when your D is a sieve.

 

[Superbelt]

Currently missing an ILB, a SS and a starting CB.

Bostic/Williams isn't cutting it. Edmunds is far from ready, and Burns is garbage.

So that is our back 7, that's a verifiable liability.

Can't use any of the 7 to generate pressure. They are behind the 8 ball as it is, leaking like a sieve.

So the front 3 guys are playing outmatched, and asked to contain the run. They can't do that either. Spread too thin, trying to mask a lack of horsepower, and everything suffers. equally.

Morgan Burnett might help some of this when he gets healthy. But I don't see it getting much better this season.

Steelers needed to pick up pro-ready players this offseason for the Defense. They didn't.

Justin Reid would have gone a long way to helping this team NOW. But everyone got scared away because of his brother.

 

[SteelersPride]

its insane how many top draft picks they have not working oout, thats coaching, again, i say all coaches, but porter hasnt developed ANYONE