Was Chipper Jones the BEST offensive 3B of all time

[DragonfromTO]

I really don't feel like splitting hairs on this....but,tell that to the many baseball writers & historians who darn near unanimously thinks he was.

Who are you reading that is saying this? It can't be unanimous, given that I've read plenty of people who have said otherwise. I'd actually guess that it's not even a 51% majority in favour of Traynor's offense.

Never finished in the top 10 in OBP despite the .320 career BA. Finished in the top 10 in SLG once (9th in 1923). The only thing he could have on Baker is the batting average, and even that is a different perspective from a value standpoint given that Baker hit just 13 raw points lower than Traynor while the league average was just .266, or 28 points lower than when Pie was playing.

I mean, we're talking about 2 players with very similar raw OPS (Baker slightly higher even) and one of them played in an era where the league OPS was almost 100 points higher than the other. And that's the one that gets your vote?

 

[broncosmitty]

I think Pie Traynor was basically unanimous as "best" third baseman until Eddie Matthews. But I don't know about offensively. Just best.

Home Run Baker's gonna be a tough sell. Seeing as he never hit more than 12 homers in a season. He was purely a third baseman though. So he's got that goin' for him. (His career wasnt solely Dead Ball Era, so the nickname matters to me as much as Jeter bring Mr. November. Plus, as a Tigers fan, Ive always thought Baker was a puss.)

 

[obxyankeefan]

Who are you reading that is saying this? It can't be unanimous, given that I've read plenty of people who have said otherwise. I'd actually guess that it's not even a 51% majority in favour of Traynor's offense.

Never finished in the top 10 in OBP despite the .320 career BA. Finished in the top 10 in SLG once (9th in 1923). The only thing he could have on Baker is the batting average, and even that is a different perspective from a value standpoint given that Baker hit just 13 raw points lower than Traynor while the league average was just .266, or 28 points lower than when Pie was playing.

I mean, we're talking about 2 players with very similar raw OPS (Baker slightly higher even) and one of them played in an era where the league OPS was almost 100 points higher than the other. And that's the one that gets your vote?

If you asked this question 40 years ago, Traynor would be the experts choice. But with the ease of finding stats on the internet and more advanced stats of today most people will say he doesn't belong in the conversation.

 

[UK Cowboy]

The best offensive 3rd Baseman of all time was Mike Schmidt
With the glove, Brooks Robinson
The best all around was Eddie Matthews
Chipper was top not 5 IMO. Schmidt, Brett, Matthews, Killebrew, Boggs

 

[Nosferatu]

0

Should be changed to Hank Aaron IMO. Just like the NBAs should be changed to Jordan.

Why Aaron?

 

[Nosferatu]

Just wanna give an honorable mention to Gary Gaetti...

 

[night]

I think both of them have Chipper beat by just a bit.
I feel like it's important to look at the stats in the context of the time in which they played...
Schmidt led in HRs 8 times, RBI 4 times, OBP 3 times, slugging 5 times.
Mathews only led in HRs twice and OBP once, but he was also royally screwed by his home parks...hit 238HRs at home and 274 on the road, for example. Most hitters are going to have a bit of an advantage at home, and Banks hit 290 at home and 222 on the road (the Wrigley boost) as an example of an extreme home park advantage.
Chipper led in BA once and OBP once, both in a kinda short 128 game season in '08. Jones also had a bit of a home park boost, 259 HRs there to 209 on the road.

I'd take Chipper over Boggs with the bat, though, despite all of Wade's batting titles...prefer a hitter with power and Boggs also got an extreme boost from Fenway for the first part of his career.
Tough for me to pick between Jones and Brett...George's best years were better, IMHO.

Chipper also played during the steroid era and he was never outed as a user. Isn't that kind of a handicap when you're talking leading the league in numbers?

 

[DragonfromTO]

I think Pie Traynor was basically unanimous as "best" third baseman until Eddie Matthews. But I don't know about offensively. Just best.

Home Run Baker's gonna be a tough sell. Seeing as he never hit more than 12 homers in a season. He was purely a third baseman though. So he's got that goin' for him. (His career wasnt solely Dead Ball Era, so the nickname matters to me as much as Jeter bring Mr. November. Plus, as a Tigers fan, Ive always thought Baker was a puss.)

Who would you choose over Baker? I didn't give it much detailed thought because I just wanted to select someone that was a) a better offensive player than Traynor and b) definitely not going to be too recent to count as pre-modern era, since I wasn't sure exactly how he was defining it.

The guy never hit more than 12 HRS but led the league four times, was top 3 seven times and top 10 nine times. Sounds pretty good to me. Top 10 in OPS seven times. And it's not like the guy was just a home run hitter, as I mentioned before he had a .307 career BA playing in a time where the league average was over 40 points lower than that.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

so, Chipper has the 3rd highest oWAR/PA, but has a better OPS, and OBP than the 2 who are better, which is significant since they are all seen to be power guys...

I understand if you want to use adjustments and replacement players Chipper is not the best, but i just don't like using those numbers...

I used my own measurements, and chipper was the clear best...

 

[broncosmitty]

Who would you choose over Baker? I didn't give it much detailed thought because I just wanted to select someone that was a) a better offensive player than Traynor and b) definitely not going to be too recent to count as pre-modern era, since I wasn't sure exactly how he was defining it.

The guy never hit more than 12 HRS but led the league four times, was top 3 seven times and top 10 nine times. Sounds pretty good to me. Top 10 in OPS seven times. And it's not like the guy was just a home run hitter, as I mentioned before he had a .307 career BA playing in a time where the league average was over 40 points lower than that.

Bakers no slouch. Just a hard sell when it comes to GOAT. That nickname of his masks his base stealing capabilities. There can't be many third basemen that have stolen 112 bags in a three year span.

I already put my bid in for Cabrera, but his time at first and in the outfield seems to have eliminated him. But I seriously don't think there's a better offensive option at third.

 

[gvsulaker82]

I woud take george brett and wade boggs over chipper. Mike schmidt too.

 

[gvsulaker82]

Caminiti comment is a joke?

 

[Tai Chi≈Surfing]

Just wanna give an honorable mention to Gary Gaetti...

In a couple of years I'll do the same for David Wright.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Bakers no slouch. Just a hard sell when it comes to GOAT. That nickname of his masks his base stealing capabilities. There can't be many third basemen that have stolen 112 bags in a three year span.

I already put my bid in for Cabrera, but his time at first and in the outfield seems to have eliminated him. But I seriously don't think there's a better offensive option at third.

No one was pushing him for GOAT though. I mentioned him specifically in response to yoga saying "Before the modern era, it has to be Pie Traynor, amirite?". So you can't vote for Cabrera on this one.

 

[broncosmitty]

No one was pushing him for GOAT though. I mentioned him specifically in response to yoga saying "Before the modern era, it has to be Pie Traynor, amirite?". So you can't vote for Cabrera on this one.

Oh, shit,.... I was thinking you guys were putting Pie and HR up against Chipper.

That's not a hard sell, just good conversation.