Wade Belak found dead - from calgary sun

[elocomotive]

IMO they need to fix cheapshots before they focus on fighting.. its like when congress focused on baseball instead of i dno, anything that was important to the country.. economy, war, etc..

cheap shots cause more problems then fights, focus on cheap shots.

Well, I agree with you in a sense, but it's not like they can't work on more than one thing at the same time. Have committees and task groups looking in to both issues. As someone noted earlier, there is some connection between the two as well. Tough to say "We're cracking down on cheap shots! (But pummel each other's lights out still, please.)"

Cheap shots are the easier issue since there isn't anyone who is PRO-cheap shots. But both can be examined simultaneously.

 

[awaz]

Well, I agree with you in a sense, but it's not like they can't work on more than one thing at the same time. Have committees and task groups looking in to both issues. As someone noted earlier, there is some connection between the two as well. Tough to say "We're cracking down on cheap shots! (But pummel each other's lights out still, please.)"

Cheap shots are the easier issue since there isn't anyone who is PRO-cheap shots. But both can be examined simultaneously.

well i've noticed that groups of people seem to suck at multi-tasking.. knock em out one at a time..

though i do suppose cracking down on cheapshots prior to eliminating fighting is a bit hypocritical..

all they need to do IMO is eliminate the enforcer role. staged fights should be game misconducts and a staged fight in the 3rd period should get you suspended for the next game.. there is no place in the game for staged fighting

 

[SLY]

But it shouldn't......

Why? There are educated arguments on both sides.

 

[Forty_Sixand2]

Why? There are educated arguments on both sides.

No offense....

But in my opinion, no there isn't.


I am open to the other side of many arguments, as I have shown in the past, but there is no defensible reason to let people fight as an extracurricular part of a sport.

It's part of the game = no it isn't

It is these guys livelihood = then they are taking the place of hockey players who deserve to make a livelihood actually PLAYING HOCKEY

It reduces cheap shots = HA!

It has always been there = a lot of things have until we figured out they were dumb and dangerous

It protect's players safety =

 

[Forty_Sixand2]

The second ref was supposed to help reduce cheap shots. I don't know if it really has yet though.

 

[elocomotive]

all they need to do IMO is eliminate the enforcer role. staged fights should be game misconducts and a staged fight in the 3rd period should get you suspended for the next game.. there is no place in the game for staged fighting

I like that idea since enforcer on enforcer fights are the most useless of all hockey fights. Though asking refs to determine what is or is not is a "staged" fight creates a very subjective and difficult call. It would eliminate some of the coach nods/thug flops over the boards situations.

If a guy acts up, I think you just jam a golf club in his poophole...

(Mostly just an excuse to throw it up in case you missed it in the other thread. )

 

[elocomotive]

Why? There are educated arguments on both sides.

I think there are in some ways, but I haven't really heard a good one for pro-fighting in this thread. I've heard it's always been in hockey and "pussification" so far. Those aren't great arguments to me.

I'd love to see some stats on injuries and serious injuries pre- and post-enforcer. That would be interesting to see. Also, a look at games missed pre- and post-instigator rule. I think both sides of this debate largely agree that is a dumb rule.

 

[SLY]

instigator rule is dumb for sure. I am not going to go compile statistics. Stop trying to pussify hockey!

 

[awaz]

I like that idea since enforcer on enforcer fights are the most useless of all hockey fights. Though asking refs to determine what is or is not is a "staged" fight creates a very subjective and difficult call. It would eliminate some of the coach nods/thug flops over the boards situations.

If a guy acts up, I think you just jam a golf club in his poophole...

(Mostly just an excuse to throw it up in case you missed it in the other thread. )

haha ya i saw that, chose to ignore it.. he told me he was going to break my legs in the Flying High thread..

I think there are in some ways, but I haven't really heard a good one for pro-fighting in this thread. I've heard it's always been in hockey and "pussification" so far. Those aren't great arguments to me.

I'd love to see some stats on injuries and serious injuries pre- and post-enforcer. That would be interesting to see. Also, a look at games missed pre- and post-instigator rule. I think both sides of this debate largely agree that is a dumb rule.

i think those stats would be misleading.. obviously i dont have the stats in front of me and dont know what they'd say, but so much has changed other than the instigator rule and enforcers being added.. we've learned much more about concussions and now players basically aren't allowed to play if they have a headache, which i think we can all agree wasn't the case in the 70s, 80s, hell even the 90s.. plus all the increases in other medical technologies, people having surgery on feet and playing a week later.. stuff like that.. i dont think those stats would be able to tell us anything conclusively

like i said before, i totally support getting rid of enforcers and staged fighting.. but i think when emotions get the best of people, they should be allowed to fight.. a guy cheapshots your teammate, you jump him.. simple as that.. i think that is and should be part of the game, and i dont see how that is not a legitimate reason for discussion.. that's exciting, and hockey is supposed to be an exciting product.. there's tons of perriphial (lord help me on spelling that word) aspects of every sport that dont 'NEED' to be there, but are.. does a baseball manager really NEED to yell at the ump and get tossed? do football players really NEED to celebrate after a good play.. do nascar drivers really NEED to throw tantrums when they lose races.. does the nba NEED to exist?

all questions on the same level IMO

 

[Darkstone42]

haha ya i saw that, chose to ignore it.. he told me he was going to break my legs in the Flying High thread..




i think those stats would be misleading.. obviously i dont have the stats in front of me and dont know what they'd say, but so much has changed other than the instigator rule and enforcers being added.. we've learned much more about concussions and now players basically aren't allowed to play if they have a headache, which i think we can all agree wasn't the case in the 70s, 80s, hell even the 90s.. plus all the increases in other medical technologies, people having surgery on feet and playing a week later.. stuff like that.. i dont think those stats would be able to tell us anything conclusively

like i said before, i totally support getting rid of enforcers and staged fighting.. but i think when emotions get the best of people, they should be allowed to fight.. a guy cheapshots your teammate, you jump him.. simple as that.. i think that is and should be part of the game, and i dont see how that is not a legitimate reason for discussion.. there's tons of perriphial (lord help me on spelling that word) aspects of every sport that dont 'NEED' to be there, but are.. does a baseball manager really NEED to yell at the ump and get tossed? do football players really NEED to celebrate after a good play.. do nascar drivers really NEED to throw tantrums when they lose races.. does the nba NEED to exist?

all questions on the same level IMO

The difference between those questions and the question of fighting in hockey, though, is that those things are a great deal less likely to result in injury and long-term health problems.

 

[Forty_Sixand2]

The NHL wants to try and crack down on head shots. The NHL teams seem to want to do it by causing a whole bunch more.......headshots. Think about that for a little bit.

 

[Forty_Sixand2]

Reading some of these articles brings up another thought....

Retirement leaves these guys with nothing to do. Maybe two years in college or two years post high school graduation would be a good idea. It may allow the players to not only become more physically ready to play with grown men, but it may give them a chance to also better prepare a skill set for life after hockey.

Just a thought....

 

[elocomotive]

haha ya i saw that, chose to ignore it.. he told me he was going to break my legs in the Flying High thread..

Yeah, I was just kidding with ya. I'll have to read the rest of your post later. I gotta roll out.

 

[KennyBanyeah]

The staged fights (or at least pure enforcers) can be eliminated, IMO, the following way:

Players must have a certain amount of TOI for every fighting major. Something in the order of 40 minutes (you'd have to look at how much is appropriate) of ice time per fighting major. If they incur a fighting major without this TOI banked (would have to be averaged out) over a suitable time frame, the team is fined and the player is suspended.

There would still be some fights but no more guys who play 4 minutes a game having staged bouts.

Guys like Chris Neil, Bieksa, Clarkson, etc. would still have jobs and would get in the odd scrap.

Guys like Parros, Colton Orr and Dracy Hordichuk could be out there mowing my lawn as we speak.

 

[awaz]

The difference between those questions and the question of fighting in hockey, though, is that those things are a great deal less likely to result in injury and long-term health problems.

i dno if thats true.. some of the baseball managers get pretty animated, cant be good for the heart :wiseass:

but there are other things that do result in injury.. kickoff returns, punt returns, obliterating people who make catches over the middle.. those things aren't necessary to the game of football and cause a ton of injuries.. blind side blocks is another one..

they are in the game because its entertaining for humans to watch other humans destroy eachother.. it always has been back to the gladiator days.. we can argue if thats sick and twisted but that's a different story

the reason these things are in the game is because they're exciting.. they serve a purpose, and its to draw attendance and tv ratings to effect the bottom line.. sports are a business, and violence is good for business.. if that disgusts you, there are other sources of entertainment out there

i'm not a hard core supporter of fighting (especially recently), but i do see reason for there to be discussion about it.. and the reason they should focus on cheap shots first is because the guys receiving the cheapshots dont have a choice.. fighters have a choice.. they're different animals all together.. so you can say its hypocrisy to eliminate cheap shots and encourage fighting, but IMO they are green apples to red apples.. (not quite apples and oranges, but still different)

 

[awaz]

Yeah, I was just kidding with ya. I'll have to read the rest of your post later. I gotta roll out.

yup yup.. peace dude

 

[awaz]

Reading some of these articles brings up another thought....

Retirement leaves these guys with nothing to do. Maybe two years in college or two years post high school graduation would be a good idea. It may allow the players to not only become more physically ready to play with grown men, but it may give them a chance to also better prepare a skill set for life after hockey.

Just a thought....

i kinda like this idea.. especially since i find juniors and college hockey to be very entertaining as well.. grow college/junior hockey and force people to mature physically before entering the game.. kills two birds with one stone

 

[Darkstone42]

i dno if thats true.. some of the baseball managers get pretty animated, cant be good for the heart :wiseass:

but there are other things that do result in injury.. kickoff returns, punt returns, obliterating people who make catches over the middle.. those things aren't necessary to the game of football and cause a ton of injuries.. blind side blocks is another one..

they are in the game because its entertaining for humans to watch other humans destroy eachother.. it always has been back to the gladiator days.. we can argue if thats sick and twisted but that's a different story

the reason these things are in the game is because they're exciting.. they serve a purpose, and its to draw attendance and tv ratings to effect the bottom line.. sports are a business, and violence is good for business.. if that disgusts you, there are other sources of entertainment out there

i'm not a hard core supporter of fighting (especially recently), but i do see reason for there to be discussion about it.. and the reason they should focus on cheap shots first is because the guys receiving the cheapshots dont have a choice.. fighters have a choice.. they're different animals all together.. so you can say its hypocrisy to eliminate cheap shots and encourage fighting, but IMO they are green apples to red apples.. (not quite apples and oranges, but still different)

Kickoff and punt returns are essential components of the sport of football. They play into the field position battle which is a major point of strategy for many teams. Big hits also serve the purpose of potentially jarring the ball loose to create incomplete passes or fumbles. There are reasons for those things besides entertainment value.

 

[awaz]

Kickoff and punt returns are essential components of the sport of football. They play into the field position battle which is a major point of strategy for many teams. Big hits also serve the purpose of potentially jarring the ball loose to create incomplete passes or fumbles. There are reasons for those things besides entertainment value.

fine...

 

[jstewismybastardson]

Reading some of these articles brings up another thought....

Retirement leaves these guys with nothing to do. Maybe two years in college or two years post high school graduation would be a good idea. It may allow the players to not only become more physically ready to play with grown men, but it may give them a chance to also better prepare a skill set for life after hockey.

Just a thought....

I dont think its neccesarily college that all guys need so much as life skills

stuff I heard today:

Tyson Nash was "railing" against the NHLPA and highlighted that when he retired from the NHL he was kind of a lost soul and didnt know what to do with himself. Said their werent any programs offered by the NHL or NHLPA that were their to support him in life after hockey.

Ray Ferraro said he was the classic retired hockey player ... everything fell apart after he retired ... he didnt know what to do ... had episodes of crying while watching hockey games on tv ... marriage fell apart ... the big thing he mentioned (and should be recognized as it goes to your point about life skills) is that every guy who goes through the chl HAD EVERYTHING DONE FOR THEM PRETTY MUCH THEIR ENTIRE LIVES ... They leave home at 14 and are taken in by billets who play the role of second parents ... They leave junior and their agents take over their lives and make sure the "administration" of their day to day life in pro hockey is taken care of ... then some marry and the wives take over alot of those functions so the player can reduce the amount he pays the agent for these extra services ... For Ferraro, he didnt even know how to go about the process of booking his own flight/trip

Gary Valk went contrary to Tyson Nash and said just like with cba negotiations and because of the fact that everything is done for players, some stick their head in the sand and dont realize there are programs that exist to help them. Valk talked about his first year away from hockey and just being aimless ... and his marriage was breaking down. he was at a charity golf course one day and he got a confusing call on his cell from a random guy who said he was calling from the NHLPA's "Life after hockey" program and that he had heard that he was looking for some help. Turns out Valks wife was the one who called and said he needed help and it ended up changing his life.

This "Life after hockey" program offers retired players free career prep courses and does all the legwork in getting them enrolled in universities if they want.

The one common refrain from all 3 players above was that their agent pretty much disappears from their lives post playing career. After years of skimming at least 3% of their salaries the agent stops returning calls.

Just listening to these interviews today it would seem that there are more of these stories than success stories like that of Dave Scatchard who made more money in 1 year of selling commercial real estate (during his first retirement stint before he made a comeback) than he had playing hockey his entire career