POLL Vote for the MVP

[BallsOfFurry]

A couple more reasons why PER does not prove what he wants it to:

1: it over rewards low percentage, volume shooters. Players get something like .8 for a made FG, but lose only .2 something for a miss. A player would have to shoot under 30% for FG impact to be negative.

2: it rewards player for rebounds. Like @TJL pointed out, Russ gets a ton of uncontested boards.

If players earned 0 points for uncontested rebounds and were penalized a bit more for FG misses (as they should be), Westbrook and Harden would not be 1 and 2. Durant and Leonard would be at the top.

Come now.
The top 6 PER ratings this season belong to the 6 players who will likely finish in the top 6 in the MVP vote.
Westbrook.
Harden
Durant
Lebron
Leonard
Thomas
It's no fluke, every year the best seasons are mirrored in PER. No other measure comes close to it in identifying the best seasons in any particular year.
If you want to ignore the obvious, it's your right to be wrong.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

It's Nancy

Nancy Boys are a dime a dozen. This guy deserves to be a deb.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

Nah that doesn't matter. No one realizes this but MJ had a couple seasons where his FG% was in the mid-40's and he took 24-25 shots a game. The fact is when you shoot that many times your FG% will not be too high. That being said, his % is pretty low but he does so much for the team that he is helping the team way more than hurting the team no doubt. He averages almost 11 rebounds and 11 assists. 11 rebounds for a guard is pretty amazing.

I just checked the current odds of winning this year's MVP.
Of the 6 with the highest PER ratings in the league, 5 are in the top 6 in MVP odds.
Even the lone exception is telling. Durant is #3 in PER but just #7 in MVP odds.
The reason, 2 time defending MVP and current Durant teammate S. Curry is 6th in MVP odds. It's because A. they cancel each other out, B. Curry gets a bump for his last 2 years. If Durant played for another team it's be 6 for 6 in matching MVP candidates to PER rating. It's not because voters and odds makers willfully consider PER either, it's because PER reveals the best players/seasons better than any other stat....PERIOD.

 

[TJL]

I just checked the current odds of winning this year's MVP.
Of the 6 with the highest PER ratings in the league, 5 are in the top 6 in MVP odds.
Even the lone exception is telling. Durant is #3 in PER but just #7 in MVP odds.
The reason, 2 time defending MVP and current Durant teammate S. Curry is 6th in MVP odds. It's because A. they cancel each other out, B. Curry gets a bump for his last 2 years. If Durant played for another team it's be 6 for 6 in matching MVP candidates to PER rating. It's not because voters and odds makers willfully consider PER either, it's because PER reveals the best players/seasons better than any other stat....PERIOD.

Durant got bumped because of his injury, not the team he's on. Before he went down he was a top 3 candidate. I think most people had him over Kawhi and LeBron.

Signed, Debbie

 

[Sportsguy9695]

as big of a James fan I am westbrook needs to get it this year. he is putting up insane numbers

 

[tlance]

Come now.
The top 6 PER ratings this season belong to the 6 players who will likely finish in the top 6 in the MVP vote.
Westbrook.
Harden
Durant
Lebron
Leonard
Thomas
It's no fluke, every year the best seasons are mirrored in PER. No other measure comes close to it in identifying the best seasons in any particular year.
If you want to ignore the obvious, it's your right to be wrong.

That is true, still not my point. PER is a very flawed measure. It rewards volume stat stuffers over efficiency and does not factor in actual defense (blocks and steals are not a good measure).

When Big O averaged his triple double, he finished 3rd in the voting behind Wilt (who averaged like 50 and 20) and Russell who won with far inferior numbers. Back then, the vote was based on which player had the most profound impact on winning. It went beyond simple stats. I believe this is how the award has always been intended, but over the last 30 years voters have gone away from that and simply awarded the best stats.

The shift occurred in 1980. Before then, players voted on the MVP. In 1980 journalists took over. To be honest, I do not think the average MVP voter even has a clue what they are looking at. They are journalists, not basketball people.

Russ might even win a peer vote this year, but IMO that speaks to how much the media has influenced opinions about things that really matter. The average player today is a little too caught up in the stat sheet.

 

[tlance]

I just checked the current odds of winning this year's MVP.
Of the 6 with the highest PER ratings in the league, 5 are in the top 6 in MVP odds.
Even the lone exception is telling. Durant is #3 in PER but just #7 in MVP odds.
The reason, 2 time defending MVP and current Durant teammate S. Curry is 6th in MVP odds. It's because A. they cancel each other out, B. Curry gets a bump for his last 2 years. If Durant played for another team it's be 6 for 6 in matching MVP candidates to PER rating. It's not because voters and odds makers willfully consider PER either, it's because PER reveals the best players/seasons better than any other stat....PERIOD.

Not true.

PER reveals the best overall stat line. That is all it does. Players with more opportunity to produce will always come out ahead. Because MVP voters don't know the game well enough to look beyond the basic stats, that is how they vote.

Also, Durant is not 7th because he teamed with Curry. He was clearly outplaying Curry for the first 50 games. He is 7th because he has missed the last month+ with injury. He would not have won MVP had he stayed healthy this year, but he was having a better season than Westbrook prior to the injury. His efficiency numbers were insanely good.

I believe that if voters used the same criteria now that they did in the 60s, Westbrook would not be atop the list.

 

[thunderc]

And if someone had done what the Big O did since the 60's it might be a little different. Give Westbrook his due, you aren't being fair. What he is doing is truly historic.

 

[tlance]

And if someone had done what the Big O did since the 60's it might be a little different. Give Westbrook his due, you aren't being fair. What he is doing is truly historic.

I agree.

His accomplishments can be historic, deserving of MVP (as has been voted the last 30 years) and overrated all at the same time.

 

[trojanfan12]

How did you prove me wrong? I said him and Harden get a lot of uncontested rebounds, you know, because I actually watch the games and can see this with my eyes.

Yes and no. The fact that the Thunder and Rockets allow Westbrook and Harden to get uncontested rebounds to get their offenses started quicker, does make it easier for those 2 to "pad their rebounding stats."

However, no matter how they get those rebounds, they are still extra possessions for their teams. In order for Westbrook and Harden to get those rebounds, their teammates have to work together to box out the opposing players so that Westbrook and Harden can get them. In fact, the point of boxing out is to make it so that someone from your team can get the rebound with as little resistance as possible.

 

[trojanfan12]

And if someone had done what the Big O did since the 60's it might be a little different. Give Westbrook his due, you aren't being fair. What he is doing is truly historic.

I agree. There's a reason that what Westbrook is about to do has only been done one other time in league history and it ain't because it's easy.

 

[Zooky]

 

[trojanfan12]

His accomplishments can be historic, deserving of MVP (as has been voted the last 30 years) and overrated all at the same time.

I agree that's possible, however, I disagree that it's the case with Westbrook. When you look at the Thunders record when Westbrook records a triple double vs. their record when he doesn't, it's obvious that for the Thunder to be where they are, he pretty much has to have a triple double.

If their record when he didn't record a triple double were at least close to as good as when he does, then the case could be made that it's overrated. But not when there is this huge discrepancy between the 2.

 

[StanMarsh51]

I agree that's possible, however, I disagree that it's the case with Westbrook. When you look at the Thunders record when Westbrook records a triple double vs. their record when he doesn't, it's obvious that for the Thunder to be where they are, he pretty much has to have a triple double.

If their record when he didn't record a triple double were at least close to as good as when he does, then the case could be made that it's overrated. But not when there is this huge discrepancy between the 2.

It's not as clear-cut as that because what if they play weaker teams (on the whole) in games where they win and Westbrook has a triple double?

Of the 31 OKC wins where Westbrook has a triple double, 19 of them are against teams with losing records (61%), with 11 against the 6 worst teams in the NBA. Many of those games weren't close, so it could certainly be argued that in many of those games, he didn't need a triple double for the team to win (although it doesn't hurt).

 

[Shanemansj13]

Come now.
The top 6 PER ratings this season belong to the 6 players who will likely finish in the top 6 in the MVP vote.
Westbrook.
Harden
Durant
Lebron
Leonard
Thomas
It's no fluke, every year the best seasons are mirrored in PER. No other measure comes close to it in identifying the best seasons in any particular year.
If you want to ignore the obvious, it's your right to be wrong.

This is not true. There are stats that are skewed and PER is definitely one of those, it just isn't only stat you want to use especially deciding the MVP. We have seen many players win it not being in the top 3 or top 5 or even being lower on the list.

 

[Shanemansj13]

I just checked the current odds of winning this year's MVP.
Of the 6 with the highest PER ratings in the league, 5 are in the top 6 in MVP odds.
Even the lone exception is telling. Durant is #3 in PER but just #7 in MVP odds.
The reason, 2 time defending MVP and current Durant teammate S. Curry is 6th in MVP odds. It's because A. they cancel each other out, B. Curry gets a bump for his last 2 years. If Durant played for another team it's be 6 for 6 in matching MVP candidates to PER rating. It's not because voters and odds makers willfully consider PER either, it's because PER reveals the best players/seasons better than any other stat....PERIOD.

Well KD did get injured so that is probably why he lowered on the list lol. Not one stat decides the MVP, yes PER is a good stat but I am not basing it off my vote bc we have seen it doesn't always determine the winner and I think we could it this year too. RW might not win MVP even though he is #1 in PER by almost 3 points.

 

[Wamu]

My vote for MVP goes to @WiggyRuss.

 

[Wishbone]

 

[lebron23james]

76 players in the NBA have attempted 150 shots in the 4Q this year.

LeBron is 1st in FG%.
Kawhi is 30th.
Westbrook is 44th.
Harden is 64th. (also set the league record for turnovers)

Leclutch should be mvp. Westbrook will get it tho

 

[StanMarsh51]

If only there was an advanced stat to support my contention.....wait a tick.
It's called PER, or Player efficiency rating. It's the most advanced stat in use in factoring in everything a player contributes and the net efficiency of those contributions.

#1 is Westbrook with a 30.69 PER.
#2 is Harden with a 27.83 PER.
So Westbrook is around 9.5% more efficient than the second most efficient player in The NBA this year.
.

If you're going to bring up PER and simultaneously claim that Westbrook is having the best season in the modern era, shouldn't we acknowledge that numerous seasons in the modern era have had a better PER?


The following seasons in the 2000s (so it doesn't even include Jordan) have a higher PER than Westbrook's 2016-2017:


Lebron 2008-2009
Lebron 2012-2013
Curry 2015-2016
A. Davis 2014-2015
Lebron 2011-2012

Additionally, Shaq, Wade, McGrady are all right behind him with seasons in the 2000s with a PER over 30.2