POLL Vote for the MVP

[Shanemansj13]

If you're going to bring up PER and simultaneously claim that Westbrook is having the best season in the modern era, shouldn't we acknowledge that numerous seasons in the modern era have had a better PER?


The following seasons in the 2000s (so it doesn't even include Jordan) have a higher PER than Westbrook's 2016-2017:


Lebron 2008-2009
Lebron 2012-2013
Curry 2015-2016
A. Davis 2014-2015
Lebron 2011-2012

Additionally, Shaq, Wade, McGrady are all right behind him with seasons in the 2000s with a PER over 30.2

I have mentioned this lol. He didn't bother reading apparently...

Too bad PER doesn't equal MVP.

It sometimes does but not in every case.

Derrick Rose won it in 10-11 and his PER was almost a full 4 points lower than Lebron.
Kobe won it in 07-08 and his PER was almost a full 5 points lower than Lebron.
Steve Nash won back-to-back MVP's being 14th and 18th in PER.

It also has to do a lot with the standings and Harden has boosted his team into the 3rd seed, way above projected, he also leads the league in assists.

 

[TJL]

I have mentioned this lol. He didn't bother reading apparently...

He doesn't watch the games, he thinks Westbrook gets contested rebounds and didn't realize that Durant dropped on the MVP list because he got injured.

He didn't know the second best player in the world has been injured for the last month.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

Durant got bumped because of his injury, not the team he's on. Before he went down he was a top 3 candidate. I think most people had him over Kawhi and LeBron.

Signed, Debbie

Add him in and my PER ratings are 6 for 6 in predicting the top candidates for MVP.
You made my case iron clad while trying to weaken it.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

I have mentioned this lol. He didn't bother reading apparently...

I addressed this before you even brought it up. Only MJ's 87/88 season and Lebron's 08/09 seasons were higher than Westbrook's this season.
I might be missing 1, but no more.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

If you're going to bring up PER and simultaneously claim that Westbrook is having the best season in the modern era, shouldn't we acknowledge that numerous seasons in the modern era have had a better PER?


The following seasons in the 2000s (so it doesn't even include Jordan) have a higher PER than Westbrook's 2016-2017:


Lebron 2008-2009
Lebron 2012-2013
Curry 2015-2016
A. Davis 2014-2015
Lebron 2011-2012

Additionally, Shaq, Wade, McGrady are all right behind him with seasons in the 2000s with a PER over 30.2

WRONG. Only Wilt, MJ and Lebron have had a season with a higher PER rating than Westbrook has as of tonight.
Wilt had 2, MJ had 1 and LeBron had 1. None were significantly higher than Westbrook has this season.
My only mistake before was not going back far enough to include Wilt's 2 season's that is because they weren't kept back then.

 

[StanMarsh51]

WRONG. Only Wilt, MJ and Lebron have had a season with a higher PER rating than Westbrook has as of tonight.
Wilt had 2, MJ had 1 and LeBron had 1. None were significantly higher than Westbrook has this season.
My only mistake before was not going back far enough to include Wilt's 2 season's that is because they weren't kept back then.

LOL...you wait what, over a week to respond to my post and for Westbrook's PER to increase, then you say "wrong?"

When I posted that, his PER was below those players I listed and that's undeniable. You waited until he had a great week then came out of the woodwork to respond.

Talk about being manipulative on your part.

And if you're saying that Jordan and LeBron have higher single season PERs, that crushes your argument that Westbrook has the best season in the modern era.

 

[tlance]

Adding onto my prior post, you mention that Lebron/MJ's best PERs weren't significantly better than Westbrook's, but what about Westbrook's PER not being significantly better than numerous other seasons?


The best PER for both Lebron and Jordan was 31.7 (rounded to the nearest tenth), while Westbrook's is 30.8, so there's a gap of 0.9. There are 9 seasons in the past 25 years that where the gap between that season and Westbrook's is smaller than 0.9, so Westbrook is closer to those 9 seasons than to MJ/Lebron's best season.

Adding to that, Westbrook's raw numbers (at least the ones considered in PER) are significantly better than LeBron's best season, so what does that say about Russ' efficiency? His PER is still lower despite the fact that TOs and missed FGs are not penalized harshly enough. Westbrook literally breaks the PER scale because I do not think anyone ever imagined a player getting this much usage.

 

[StanMarsh51]

WRONG. Only Wilt, MJ and Lebron have had a season with a higher PER rating than Westbrook has as of tonight.
Wilt had 2, MJ had 1 and LeBron had 1. None were significantly higher than Westbrook has this season.
My only mistake before was not going back far enough to include Wilt's 2 season's that is because they weren't kept back then.

Adding to that, Westbrook's raw numbers (at least the ones considered in PER) are significantly better than LeBron's best season, so what does that say about Russ' efficiency? His PER is still lower despite the fact that TOs and missed FGs are not penalized harshly enough. Westbrook literally breaks the PER scale because I do not think anyone ever imagined a player getting this much usage.

Are you forgetting Curry's 2015-2016 at 31.46 (Westbrook's is currently 30.84)?

And you're wrong with claiming that MJ and Lebron had 1 season better...MJ had FOUR seasons with a PER better than 30.8, and Lebron had THREE.
NBA & ABA Single Season Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating | Basketball-Reference.com


Adding onto my prior post, you mention that Lebron/MJ's best PERs weren't significantly better than Westbrook's, but what about Westbrook's PER not being significantly better than numerous other seasons?


The best PER for both Lebron and Jordan was 31.7 (rounded to the nearest tenth), while Westbrook's is 30.8, so there's a gap of 0.9. There are 9 seasons in the past 25 years that where the gap between that season and Westbrook's is smaller than 0.9, so Westbrook is closer to those 9 seasons than to MJ/Lebron's best season.

 

[tlance]

Are you forgetting Curry's 2015-2016 at 31.46 (Westbrook's is currently 30.84)?

And you're wrong with claiming that MJ and Lebron had 1 season better...MJ had FOUR seasons with a PER better than 30.8, and Lebron had THREE.
NBA & ABA Single Season Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating | Basketball-Reference.com


Adding onto my prior post, you mention that Lebron/MJ's best PERs weren't significantly better than Westbrook's, but what about Westbrook's PER not being significantly better than numerous other seasons?


The best PER for both Lebron and Jordan was 31.7 (rounded to the nearest tenth), while Westbrook's is 30.8, so there's a gap of 0.9. There are 9 seasons in the past 25 years that where the gap between that season and Westbrook's is smaller than 0.9, so Westbrook is closer to those 9 seasons than to MJ/Lebron's best season.

The amazing thing about Curry's season last year was that he led the league in true shooting percentage and was second in effective FG% despite taking a ton of extremely difficult shots. I don't know if we will ever witness a season like that again. His performance was a lot more impressive to me.

 

[gordontrue]

For me its Westbrook, with Harden & James close behind. Kawhi, imo, is a distant 4th.

Right now, I have Harden ahead of LeBron... but looking at the stats - and realizing that the Cavs are now just 2 games off the Rockets' record - I think LeBron deserves more consideration than he's getting.

 

[Shanemansj13]

I'm surprised RW's teammates didn't move out of the way to let him grab one more rebound. Shame on them!

 

[BambinoBear]

Russ single-handedly has the Thunder in playoff contention. Without him, they are looking at possibly 20 wins right now. He has to be MVP!

 

[thunderc]

The clutch stats alone give him the MVP, forget the triple doubles, which is impossible to do.

 

[BallsOfFurry]

LOL...you wait what, over a week to respond to my post and for Westbrook's PER to increase, then you say "wrong?"

When I posted that, his PER was below those players I listed and that's undeniable. You waited until he had a great week then came out of the woodwork to respond.

Talk about being manipulative on your part.

And if you're saying that Jordan and LeBron have higher single season PERs, that crushes your argument that Westbrook has the best season in the modern era.

It hasn't been a week yet since I posted the PER stats.
You're grasping at straws.
There is no contest for MVP, Westbrook will run away with the voting as he should.
This is far more impressive than Big-0's triple double season in 61/62 as I've exposed as being just barely valid.
That season was a transition to a game clock where teams were still only playing half court. Teams averaged 126.5 possessions per game that season, by far the most in history. By contrast teams have averaged just 96.2 possessions per game this season, that means Oscar had 31% more possessions to achieve his triple double average. If he'd been limited to the possessions Westbrook has worked with he would have averaged about 22 pts, 8 boards and 7 assist in 61/62, excellent, but not historical.
What westbrook is doing is really unprecedented.

 

[StanMarsh51]

It hasn't been a week yet since I posted the PER stats.
You're grasping at straws.
There is no contest for MVP, Westbrook will run away with the voting as he should.
This is far more impressive than Big-0's triple double season in 61/62 as I've exposed as being just barely valid.
That season was a transition to a game clock where teams were still only playing half court. Teams averaged 126.5 possessions per game that season, by far the most in history. By contrast teams have averaged just 96.2 possessions per game this season, that means Oscar had 31% more possessions to achieve his triple double average. If he'd been limited to the possessions Westbrook has worked with he would have averaged about 22 pts, 8 boards and 7 assist in 61/62, excellent, but not historical.
What westbrook is doing is really unprecedented.

If you've been following, I'm not really arguing his MVP candidacy cause he is certainly a worthy candidate. I am arguing your claim that he's having the best season of the modern era.

You bring up PER as a big reason why he's MVP, then you switch to other criteria when explaining why he's having the best season in the modern era...you're not staying consistent with your argument.


As I pointed out, MJ has 4 seasons with a better PER than Westbrook's current season, and Lebron has 3. Curry's 2015-2016 also has a better PER. There are a number of seasons that are closer to Westbrook's in PER than Westbrook's season is to MJ's or Lebron's best.

 

[ChrisWebber]

Here's the issue with PER.

Westbrook has a higher PER than the Big O. 30.8 vs 26.0

Westbrook and Oscar have the same exact efg% but Oscar has more rebounds and assists per game but averages 1 point less per game than Westbrook. We'll never know Oscars 3 point percentage but still.. PER values Westbrook more than Big O despite similar stats.

Heck, Jordan in 88-89 had a PER of 31.9 and did not win the MVP, Magic had a per of 26.9 and was the MVP. Jordan had a higher efg%

I think the MVP race comes down to which team a certain player is on, has the better record.

 

[gordontrue]

Here's the issue with PER.

Westbrook has a higher PER than the Big O. 30.8 vs 26.0

Westbrook and Oscar have the same exact efg% but Oscar has more rebounds and assists per game but averages 1 point less per game than Westbrook. We'll never know Oscars 3 point percentage but still.. PER values Westbrook more than Big O despite similar stats.

Heck, Jordan in 88-89 had a PER of 31.9 and did not win the MVP, Magic had a per of 26.9 and was the MVP. Jordan had a higher efg%

I think the MVP race comes down to which team a certain player is on, has the better record.

wow, thats as good of an example of the problems of PER as I've seen.

I know it has a bias towards 3 pointers and that is likely what is at play here.

 

[tlance]

Here's the issue with PER.

Westbrook has a higher PER than the Big O. 30.8 vs 26.0

Westbrook and Oscar have the same exact efg% but Oscar has more rebounds and assists per game but averages 1 point less per game than Westbrook. We'll never know Oscars 3 point percentage but still.. PER values Westbrook more than Big O despite similar stats.

Heck, Jordan in 88-89 had a PER of 31.9 and did not win the MVP, Magic had a per of 26.9 and was the MVP. Jordan had a higher efg%

I think the MVP race comes down to which team a certain player is on, has the better record.

2 things.

First, of their eFG% was the same, that means O shot a lot more efficiently. Also, in that era, very few players shot over 45%. Heck, there are HOF players with career Fg% under 40.

PER really should not be used for any player before about 1980.

 

[The Derski]

6-25 with 8 turnovers.

Westbrook is MVP they said.

Btw I saw at least two instances in which his big men blatantly let him grab rebounds over them on missed free throws.

 

[The Derski]

Not to mention the Suns broke a 13 game losing streak and boat raced his team.
The. Suns.