Vokoun or Byzgalov: My Wednesday Morning Debate

[elocomotive]

This topic came up today, so I thought I'd share with you guys.

We get it, his last name is Semin... can we all move on from it please?!?

 

[SuperFlyer13]

The most important thing you're missing is this, the Flyers now have a better chance of winning a lot of those 1-0 and 2-1 games. I don't think losing Richie and Carter will be a huge factor, it's not like we brought in crappy replacement parts,. I don't know how far we end up going but I predict we'll be competing in the playoffs.

 

[DChero]

We get it, his last name is Semin... can we all move on from it please?!?

You can't deny that the Caps are loaded with Semin and company. That big blast from the point could be huge for the PP.

The most important thing you're missing is this, the Flyers now have a better chance of winning a lot of those 1-0 and 2-1 games. I don't think losing Richie and Carter will be a huge factor, it's not like we brought in crappy replacement parts,. I don't know how far we end up going but I predict we'll be competing in the playoffs.

It's true, but can the same also be said for the Caps?

 

[SuperFlyer13]

You can deny that the Caps are loaded with Semin and company. That big blast from the point could be huge for the PP.



It's true, but can the same also be said for the Caps?

Not sure, they had a great defensive team last year so I'm not sure how much more room they had for improvement. I honestly think there's more pressure on Vokoun, cause like every one has said, he's not getting any younger and wants a big pay day, Bryz already got his.

 

[elocomotive]

Not sure, they had a great defensive team last year so I'm not sure how much more room they had for improvement. I honestly think there's more pressure on Vokoun, cause like every one has said, he's not getting any younger and wants a big pay day, Bryz already got his.

As to contract pressure, I think it's pretty well established that guys often perform their best when in a contract year and sometimes have lags after getting a big contract. I don't see that factor weighing in Philly's favor. But I also don't see Vokoun and Bryz as guys who aren't going to give you their best every night.

 

[DChero]

Not sure, they had a great defensive team last year so I'm not sure how much more room they had for improvement. I honestly think there's more pressure on Vokoun, cause like every one has said, he's not getting any younger and wants a big pay day, Bryz already got his.

There's kind of two different schools of thought on this. I understand that there's usually a peaking point for potential, as this is an extremely competitive league. However, I'm a believer that one team can break that mold for as long as a season.

For example, we don't expect anyone to hit 92 goals in todays NHL, but it's more in reach than we think when we look at the streaks Perry, Crosby, Stamkos and Ovechkin have been on before.

 

[ritari330]

Also, if both were to suck balls, caps would be in a much better situation..

 

[elocomotive]

It's true, but can the same also be said for the Caps?

I think our defense will continue to improve with Vokoun in net, Schultz healthier, continued maturation of Carlson and Alzner, and if we can see a healthy Green, Wideman, and Carlson all in the lineup (which never happened last year). Those three should also spur the offense some - all great puck movers.

I wouldn't be surprised if we allow the fewest goals in the NHL this coming season.

 

[ritari330]

For the caps, its evening out their play. they improved on defense and goalie so they could bring in more of a hybrid as Bruce called it. Get some flow going to the game, but still have defensive responsability.

 

[ritari330]

To add on to eloco, we also have great depth at D with Erskine having the season he had last year.

 

[awaz]

I think our defense will continue to improve with Vokoun in net, Schultz healthier, continued maturation of Carlson and Alzner, and if we can see a healthy Green, Wideman, and Carlson all in the lineup (which never happened last year). Those three should also spur the offense some - all great puck movers.

I wouldn't be surprised if we allow the fewest goals in the NHL this coming season.

i was thinking the same

i think the caps will be an absolute force in the regular season (again.).. its all about how they do in the playoffs and how well they can adapt playing the same team 4-7 nights in a row.. IMO they have not done well at that with boudreau behind the bench.. i think for the most part he's been badly out coached and is very stubborn when it comes to changing strategies when teams key in on them.. in the playoffs you have to make adjustments to beat the team you are playing.. not try the style you think will work for the whole playoffs

and as for the 'no experience' vs. 'bad experience'.. i would rather have no experience.. we've seen goalies come in with no experience loads of times and do well.. cam ward, MAF (he played well to get the pens to the finals when the lost too), niemi, thomas didnt really have an abundance of playoff experience.. IMO, for goalies, playoff experience means very little for most of them.. having a rough go of it (*cough luongo blackhawks) gets in their heads and causes them to struggle.. i'd take no experience vs. bad experience every time when it comes to goaltending

 

[flyersfan4706]

I still pick Vokoun

 

[DChero]

and as for the 'no experience' vs. 'bad experience'.. i would rather have no experience.. we've seen goalies come in with no experience loads of times and do well.. cam ward, MAF (he played well to get the pens to the finals when the lost too), niemi, thomas didnt really have an abundance of playoff experience.. IMO, for goalies, playoff experience means very little for most of them.. having a rough go of it (*cough luongo blackhawks) gets in their heads and causes them to struggle.. i'd take no experience vs. bad experience every time when it comes to goaltending

That's a really good point. Looking back to the Flyers in the finals two years ago, they did it without a traditional starter. So you it really makes sense as far as it maybe being more on the skaters then goalies.

 

[awaz]

That's a really good point. Looking back to the Flyers in the finals two years ago, they did it without a traditional starter. So you it really makes sense as far as it maybe being more on the skaters then goalies.

ya.. IMO goalies are a crapshoot.. i'm glad the flyers went out and got one because its been a problem for so long, but i dont like that they spent so much money.. if you look at the 'best' goalies in the game right.. how many have rings?

in no particular order:
lundqvist
miller
luongo
vokoun
bryzgalov
MAF* (grudgingly i'll put him on here, he's super up and down though)
thomas*
brodeur*
kipprusoff (i struggle with that sp?)
rinne

there's really not many that have cups, and those guys have been around for a good bit of time (aside from rinne).. everyone always says goalie is the most important position and is like the QB in football or pitcher in baseball.. but really, you'd think the super star goalies would have championships if that was the case

look at the QB's:
rodgers*
p. manning*
brady*
rivers
brees*

all of them except 1 has some bling..

new guys come in and win comes more cups than the guys who have been around and proven they are top-notch goalies.. so IMO you're just as likely to get a hyped prospect to go on a hot streak in the playoffs as you are to get a proven guy who you know will be steady

 

[Nasty_Magician]

ya.. IMO goalies are a crapshoot.. i'm glad the flyers went out and got one because its been a problem for so long, but i dont like that they spent so much money.. if you look at the 'best' goalies in the game right.. how many have rings?

in no particular order:
lundqvist
miller
luongo
vokoun
bryzgalov
MAF* (grudgingly i'll put him on here, he's super up and down though)
thomas*
brodeur*
kipprusoff (i struggle with that sp?)
rinne

there's really not many that have cups, and those guys have been around for a good bit of time (aside from rinne).. everyone always says goalie is the most important position and is like the QB in football or pitcher in baseball.. but really, you'd think the super star goalies would have championships if that was the case

look at the QB's:
rodgers*
p. manning*
brady*
rivers
brees*

all of them except 1 has some bling..

new guys come in and win comes more cups than the guys who have been around and proven they are top-notch goalies.. so IMO you're just as likely to get a hyped prospect to go on a hot streak in the playoffs as you are to get a proven guy who you know will be steady

I think a lot of that has to do with salary as welll. Top notch goalies will command a high salary so there is less money to spread around to the rest of the roster. In theory a low paid goalie should have a better team in front of him.

 

[DevilishWon]

1st I like both of them, slight nod to Vokoun...but when you factor in the cap hit...Vokoun by a LOOONG shot.

 

[DChero]

1st I like both of them, slight nod to Vokoun...but when you factor in the cap hit...Vokoun by a LOOONG shot.

It's funny, with the money taken out of the equation, I'm pretty undecided. I don't know that either have really been tested in a competitive environment. Bryz was the closest in the playoffs, but I don't think there was much pressure (from the media) because the expectations weren't there. The pressure's on now. Let's see who blinks.

By the way, at what point do we get to start the Fleury vs. Vokoun vs. Bryzgalov thread? The three-way rivalry has been pretty heated the last couple of years, so it's only fitting.

 

[awaz]

It's funny, with the money taken out of the equation, I'm pretty undecided. I don't know that either have really been tested in a competitive environment. Bryz was the closest in the playoffs, but I don't think there was much pressure (from the media) because the expectations weren't there. The pressure's on now. Let's see who blinks.

By the way, at what point do we get to start the Fleury vs. Vokoun vs. Bryzgalov thread? The three-way rivalry has been pretty heated the last couple of years, so it's only fitting.

i'm obviously biased, and you could probably see this coming, but i have fleury has 3rd on that list.. he's gotten better over the past few years but IMO his rebound control is still sub par.. at any time he could give a fat rebound that was better than any pass that could've been made and give up an easy goal.. i've always thought he was kind of overrated and was benefitting big time from the team that was in front of him, which is unfortunately very good..

and i'm sure the rebuttal will be 'how many rings does *insert name* have?'.. because thats a very pittsburgh response.. they aren't the only one's who do it, but i hear it all the time from steelers fans when i talk about how overrated big ben is.. rings are not a measure of individual talent, rings are a measure of team talent.. a team can overcome poor goaltending and it can overcome poor qb play

in fairness to fluery though, i've seen a lot more of him than i have of the other 2

just on pure skill:
1. vokoun
2. bryz
3. fleury

if you include contracts fleury might jump bryz.. isn't fleury like a 5 mil cap hit or so?

 

[DChero]

i'm obviously biased, and you could probably see this coming, but i have fleury has 3rd on that list.. he's gotten better over the past few years but IMO his rebound control is still sub par.. at any time he could give a fat rebound that was better than any pass that could've been made and give up an easy goal.. i've always thought he was kind of overrated and was benefitting big time from the team that was in front of him, which is unfortunately very good..

and i'm sure the rebuttal will be 'how many rings does *insert name* have?'.. because thats a very pittsburgh response.. they aren't the only one's who do it, but i hear it all the time from steelers fans when i talk about how overrated big ben is.. rings are not a measure of individual talent, rings are a measure of team talent.. a team can overcome poor goaltending and it can overcome poor qb play

in fairness to fluery though, i've seen a lot more of him than i have of the other 2

just on pure skill:
1. vokoun
2. bryz
3. fleury

if you include contracts fleury might jump bryz.. isn't fleury like a 5 mil cap hit or so?

How many rings does Fleury have?

Haha, I kid. I think you also have to look at where Fleury was last year without the powerhouse in front. You have to look at playoff performance too. I agree that strong teams can overcome weak goaltending, but there aren't many of those teams each year. Very rarely does a goalie put in a sub-par performance and go far in the playoffs. They may not be considered great throughout their careers, but they perform in their moment. I knowledge my homer pick, but I'm going to go with the guy that has shown that he can steal big games based on track record. He may not be the most talented, but he's the one I trust.

1) Fleury
2) Vokoun (great point made earlier about no playoff experience versus sub-par experience)
3) Bryzgalov

 

[Eddie_Shack]

Fleury has a lot of Osgood in him. Lots of ups and downs, but I wouldn't be scared to go into the Stanley Cup Finals with him on my side.