Top 32 tpournament CF Lofton vs Doby

[obxyankeefan]

Top 32 players ranked by BRWAR(as of 6/18/15).

Centerfield Bracket is:

1 W Mays 9
32 M Cameron 0

16 J Wynn 8
17 C Lemon 3

8 C Beltran 10
25 E Burks 1

9 D Snider 9
24 F Lynn 0

4 M Mantle 9
29 E Averill 0

13 W Davis 5
20 C Cedeno 4

5 K Griffey JR 13
28 B Williams 0

12 A Jones 9
21 J O' Rourke 0

3 T Speaker 6
30 D White 0

14 J Edmonds 12
19 V Pinson 1

6 J DiMaggio 4
27 B Butler 0

11 B Hamilton 2
22 K Puckett 7

2 T Cobb 9
31 T Leach 0

15 J Damon 7
18 M Carey 6

7 K Lofton
26 L Doby

10 R Ashhburn
23 T Hunter

1 W Mays
16 J Wynn

8 C Beltran
9 D Snider

4 M Mantle
13 W Davis

5 K Griffey JR
12 A Jones

3 T Speaker
14 J Edmonds

6 J DiMaggio
22 K Puckett

2 T Cobb
#15 J Damon

 

[obxyankeefan]

Kenny Lofton Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

Larry Doby Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

 

[calsnowskier]

This one is super tough.

Doby clearly had the better bat, but Lofton was one of the greatest base stealers and lead off men in the history of the game. Lofton had a WAR7 of 43.3 while Doby had a 39.6.

I am going to listen to some arguments before voting.

 

[Villain]

Kenny Lofton has an excellent reputation for being approachable by fans and just being an all-around excellent human bean. Lofton was also excellent in CF by the metrics and by the #EyeTest.

Doby has the bat, though.

Major League Leaderboards » 2015 » Batters » Dashboard | FanGraphs Baseball

 

[MilkSpiller22]

This one is super tough.

Doby clearly had the better bat, but Lofton was one of the greatest base stealers and lead off men in the history of the game. Lofton had a WAR7 of 43.3 while Doby had a 39.6.

I am going to listen to some arguments before voting.

You nailed what the difference is... Not to mention Lofton was one of the better defensive CF too... The question is simple, who would you rather have in your lineup??

an elite Lead off hitter or an average middle of the lineup guy... For me take the elite lead off every time... It would be different if doby was an elite middle of the lineup guy, but he is not...

 

[DragonfromTO]

You nailed what the difference is... Not to mention Lofton was one of the better defensive CF too... The question is simple, who would you rather have in your lineup??

an elite Lead off hitter or an average middle of the lineup guy... For me take the elite lead off every time... It would be different if doby was an elite middle of the lineup guy, but he is not...

If Doby's managers had batted him 9th instead would he have been your choice?

I mean, he still put up a better OBP than Lofton did. If I needed someone to bat leadoff for one game and had the choice between the two of them I'd probably just take Doby and bat him leadoff.

 

[StanMarsh51]

You nailed what the difference is... Not to mention Lofton was one of the better defensive CF too... The question is simple, who would you rather have in your lineup??

an elite Lead off hitter or an average middle of the lineup guy... For me take the elite lead off every time... It would be different if doby was an elite middle of the lineup guy, but he is not...

Then again, a lot of leadoff hitters are leadoff hitters because they lack a very important/valuable skill (power). Doby not only had a lot more power, but he also had a better OBP than Lofton. Doby for a couple of years was one of the best hitters in baseball, so I think that makes things closer.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Then again, a lot of leadoff hitters are leadoff hitters because they lack a very important/valuable skill (power). Doby for a couple of years was one of the best hitters in baseball, so I think that makes things closer.

they might lack that skill, but baseball is not only about power... doby was good, but he was never as good of a middle of the lineup guy as Lofton was a top of the order guy... AND Lofton was MUCH better defensively...

 

[DragonfromTO]

they might lack that skill, but baseball is not only about power... doby was good, but he was never as good of a middle of the lineup guy as Lofton was a top of the order guy... AND Lofton was MUCH better defensively...

Batting order isn't like defensive positions. You can start 9 guys that hit like cleanup hitters (if you're lucky enough to have them) and do pretty well.

 

[StanMarsh51]

they might lack that skill, but baseball is not only about power... doby was good, but he was never as good of a middle of the lineup guy as Lofton was a top of the order guy... AND Lofton was MUCH better defensively...

But when one of the main roles of the leadoff hitter is getting on base and Doby was better at that, that kinda hurts Lofton in the comparison.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Batting order isn't like defensive positions. You can start 9 guys that hit like cleanup hitters (if you're lucky enough to have them) and do pretty well.

I do disagree about this... I think the best way to maximize your lineup is to maximize your best hitters...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

But when one of the main roles of the leadoff hitter is getting on base and Doby was better at that, that kinda hurts Lofton in the comparison.

you make a good point... You can say that the only think lofton has over doby is the stolen bases... And that is valid when you look at the stats...

I guess its more that a good lead off hitter is much more rare than a good middle of the lineup guy, so I do give a boost to lead off guys...

 

[DragonfromTO]

I do disagree about this... I think the best way to maximize your lineup is to maximize your best hitters...

You don't think that a lineup with 9 guys who all hit .273/.338/.454 (the average for #4 hitters) would be a pretty good lineup?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

You don't think that a lineup with 9 guys who all hit .273/.338/.454 (the average for #4 hitters) would be a pretty good lineup?

Of course it would be a fine lineup... But I think it could be better with a couple .280/.380/375 with 25+ SB at the top ...

 

[DragonfromTO]

But when one of the main roles of the leadoff hitter is getting on base and Doby was better at that, that kinda hurts Lofton in the comparison.

In 2013 (2012 season data) I won my sim league with an offense that scored 900+ runs. I batted Brandon Belt (vs RH) and Yoenis Cespedes (vs LH) leadoff, and it seemed to work fine even though neither of them was a leadoff hitter in real life or a "traditional" leadoff hitter, because they were still both very good hitters who had very good seasons.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Of course it would be a fine lineup... But I think it could be better with a couple .280/.380/375 with 25+ SB at the top ...

No leadoff hitter in MLB had a .380 OBP this year. If you're going to replace my hypothetical league average #4 hitter the proper substitute would be a league average leadoff hitter (.271/.330/.408 with 13 SBs).

Or if you want to use Lofton (since that's who were talking about) then we need to take our hypothetical #4 hitter from his era, who would have a better line than .273/.338/.454.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

No leadoff hitter in MLB had a .380 OBP this year. If you're going to replace my hypothetical league average #4 hitter the proper substitute would be a league average leadoff hitter (.271/.330/.408 with 13 SBs).

Or if you want to use Lofton (since that's who were talking about) then we need to take our hypothetical #4 hitter from his era, who would have a better line than .273/.338/.454.

.330 is awful for a leadoff... have to do atleast .360...

 

[DragonfromTO]

.330 is awful for a leadoff... have to do atleast .360...

It's the league average for leadoff hitters, which by definition isn't awful.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

It's the league average for leadoff hitters, which by definition isn't awful.

average is awful when compared to the greats... It would be interesting to see which teams had those below .330 OBPs at lead off, and see how many of those teams were in the top half of teams scoring though...

 

[Villain]

Batting order is one of the most blown-out-of-proportion aspects of baseball. There is such a thing as an "optimal lineup" but over the course of a season it really doesn't amount to as much as the popular perception would have you believe.